Let’s take another look an old question. And we should begin with the answer: obviously, baptism, correctly understood, is not a work. If it were, Paul would no more associate baptism with salvation and entry into the church and receipt of the Spirit than circumcision.
The better question is: Do we make baptism a work when we insist that those with a genuine, penitent faith in Jesus (hereafter, simply “faith”) who fail to be baptized correctly due to being wrongly instructed as new converts (“convert” meaning someone with faith, whether or not yet baptized, with no implication intended as to their saved status).
Now, we could work through a 20-part series on each point, but let’s proceed figuring we understand each other well enough to do so.
The faith/works distinction Paul makes is largely defined by his writings in Romans and Galatians, although other passages bear on the topic. But to avoid proof texting, we have to work within the rhetorical logic and narrative that underpins each book. And while it would be fun to start in Romans 1 and work through it all, I just don’t have time right now to do that — but I have done it before and will likely do so again.
Instead, I’m going to assume that you’ve read and even studied Romans before and jump around a little bit in the first three chapters to demonstrate what is really going on — and to have some fun trying to read Paul more deeply and more truly. (This would make for a great Sunday school lesson or two or three.)
(Rom 1:17 NET) 17 For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, “The righteous by faith will live.”
“Righteousness of God” is not a self-evident term. We tend to think this means “God’s moral goodness,” but commentators are increasingly persuaded that it means “God’s covenant faithfulness” — that is, his faithfulness to his covenant with Abraham to bless all nations through the seed of Abraham and to credit faith as righteousness.
After all, to read it as “God’s moral goodness” presumes that God is subject to an external standard — he is living up to something called “righteousness” — which is absurd. No, this is about God being true to himself.
To see the Old Testament use of God’s righteousness, consider —
(Isa 63:7 NET) I will tell of the faithful acts of the LORD, of the LORD’s praiseworthy deeds. I will tell about all the LORD did for us, the many good things he did for the family of Israel, because of his compassion and great faithfulness.
Now, God’s “faithfulness” or “righteousness” in the Old Testament often translates the Hebrew word chesed (the “ch” is like the German “ch” — a k sound deep in the back of the throat; just don’t say “ch” as in “cheese”). But in the Greek translation of the Old Testament used by Paul, the Septuagint (“LXX”), the word is the same Greek word used in Rom 1:17 for “righteousness” and “righteous.”
Chesed is often translated “loving kindness” but always carries with it the sense of faithfulness to God’s promises as well as merciful generosity. There is no exact English word. “Grace” would come close if we would remember that God’s grace is driven by his promises to Abraham.
Part of God’s faithful, loving kindness to Israel is justice — and sometimes that’s clearly the point of the word, but God’s justice is always in a positive sense to a people used to unjust kings. God’s chesed is in contrast to the injustice of selfish and corrupt rulers. It’s not about God living up to some external standard called “justice.” God keeps his promises. God doesn’t have to meet human expectations otherwise. He is God.
Now, this is almost always ignored by New Testament commentators. In fact, although Paul is constantly talking about Israel and using theological concepts from the Torah, such as election, we imagine that Paul came to repeal and render irrelevant the Law and the Prophets. And that just can’t be the case.
In Rom 1:17, Paul is using Hab 2:4 to set the book’s theme: “the righteous shall live by faith.” He is saying that those who reflect back to God His own covenant faithfulness are the ones who will “live.” And “live” means live eternally. (Not sure we’ll get to that, but it becomes clear later in Romans.)
I have to note for the Hebrew experts that in Hab 2:4, the LXX translates as “righteous” not chesed but tsaddiq (The i sounds like a long e; the ts sounds like ts. Just do the best you can). But the prophets use chesed and tsaddiq repeatedly in parallel, and they are heavily overlapping characteristics of God — both having as a key element his faithfulness, making translations very challenging when they appear in parallel.
(Psa 33:5 ESV) He loves righteousness [tsaddiq] and justice; the earth is full of the steadfast love [chesed] of the LORD.
Paul nearly always uses “righteousness” in his writings for the concepts both these words represent in the Old Testament. He is borrowing the LXX’s usage of “righteousness,” and we should not expect him to stray far from it.
Therefore, while righteous justice is not absent, it is not the point. Rather, the central concept is God’s loving, merciful faithfulness to his covenants arising out of his decision to love and elect Abraham and his descendants (into which the Gentiles of faith are grafted and from which the unbelieving are cut off. Rom 11.).
(Rom 3:3 NET) 3 What then? If some did not believe, does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?
Paul anticipates Romans 9 – 11, dealing with the unbelief of the Jews, suggesting briefly in the next few verses that God may cut off the Jews without belief in Jesus and still be faithful to his covenant — a key argument to First Century Jews who wondered how so few Jews could believe in Jesus and how God’s rejection of them could be consistent with God’s promises to them. Paul wrestles with this in depth in chapters 9 – 11, but it’s not today’s issue.
(Rom 3:21-23 NET) 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness [covenant faithfulness] of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed – 22 namely, the righteousness [covenant faithfulness] of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe [have faith]. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Jesus was faithful to God’s covenant by dying on the cross for us, among other things. This was done in order to credit faith as covenant faithfulness (that is, imperfect but genuine obedience empowered by the Spirit as obedience that merits salvation).
Paul is declaring that God is honoring his promises and being true to his character as declared by the Prophets through Jesus. And Jesus is bringing about God’s faithfulness “apart from the Law.”
I don’t like the translation “believe” because many readers don’t realize that “believe” and “have faith” are the same thing — but English just doesn’t have a good verb form for “faith.” It’s the same root in Greek. And so “have faith” better carries with it the sense of faithfulness and trust as well as believing that Jesus is Lord and Son of God (which we’ve covered here many, many times).
Next, remember from several earlier lessons, especially the Covenant 2.0 series, that “sin” refers to our failing to live up to the image of God.
Let’s try this again in Jay’s translation.
(Rom 3:21-23 JAY) 21 But now apart from the Law of Moses [we’ll define this better later] the covenant faithfulness of God (which is attested by the Law and the Prophets, that is, the Old Testament) has been disclosed – 22 namely, covenant faithfulness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah for all who believe Jesus really is the Messiah, are committed to be faithful to him as Lord, and trust God’s promises through Jesus (that is, have faith). For there is no distinction, 23 for all have failed to live up to God’s image and so fall short of the glory of God.
Now, that makes perfect sense, but doesn’t sound Lutheran or Reformed. It sounds like the Old Testament fulfilled in Jesus.
(Rom 3:24-26 NET) 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. 26 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.
Many commentators, including NT Wright, take “justified” to mean “declared righteous” in a courtroom (forensic) sense. So let’s say that.
“Grace” is indistinguishable from chesed, to me, but the New Testament use of grace has likely been distorted in our minds to refer exclusively to forgiveness of sins, whereas God’s grace/chesed is much bigger than that. So we’ll try another translation.
“Just” translates the same word earlier translated “righteous,” and yet the translators use “just” rather than “righteous” because of Luther, not the context. God is under no obligation to be “just” in his dealings with humanity. That’s a concept nowhere anticipated in Romans up to this point. We need to stick with “covenant faithful” unless it just doesn’t work because we can’t just assume that Paul has used the same word in a different sense from the technical sense used in over two chapters up to this point.
“Sins previously committed” refers back to Rom 1 and 2, which describes the sins of Jews and Gentiles alike. Before Jesus, God had not yet brought about the punishment of gehenna for those not saved. Those “damned” before Jesus just died. The didn’t go to hell or suffer punishment. They just died and then ceased to exist.
The character of God needs justification for his passing over “sins committed beforehand”—that is, in the ages prior to the cross. His “forbearance” is not to be thought of as sentimentality or weakness but as an indication that meeting the demands of his righteous character would be accomplished in due season. This happened at the cross. The Greek paresis (rendered “left … unpunished”) is close to aphesis (“forgiveness”) in meaning, but with an appreciable difference in that paresis denotes a temporary remission of a debt (see Milligan and Moulton under paresis), which fits the situation here exactly. The full penalty for sin was not exacted, in line with God’s forbearance.
Everett F. Harrison, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Romans.
The identical thought appears in Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill —
(Act 17:30-31 ESV) 30 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
The Christian church has not taught much on this topic, and I suppose it was of much greater importance in the First Century. But the only possible meaning for “The times of ignorance God overlooked” is that he didn’t punish those without faith before the time of Jesus.
Some assume this means that rulers guilty of genocide are in heaven, saved forever in the arms of Jesus, but there’s no promise of salvation, just no punishment. Therefore, the better conclusion is that they died and stayed dead without punishment in the next age.
On the other hand, Paul is saying in the quoted passage that the Mercy Seat — where God’s Glory sat above the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies — is where Jesus’ death forgives sins — “relating back” as we earlier discussed regarding baptism. God’s forgiveness is outside of time, and he forgave faithful Israelites, just as promised in the Law, on account of the sacrifice of Jesus yet to come. “God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith.” Jesus wasn’t like the mercy seat. He was the power of the mercy seat — God’s seat of grace.
And so we’ll translate thusly —
(Rom 3:24-26 JAY) 24 But they are declared faithful freely by his merciful generosity through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the power behind the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies, where God forgives sins, accessible by us [faithful Israelites] through faith. This was to demonstrate his covenant faithfulness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins of all mankind previously committed. 26 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be faithful to his covenant and able to declare faithful the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.
I appreciate your discussion on the Hebrew word, “chesed.” A word that really cannot be defined, it can only be told in a story (from Abraham to Jesus) of God’s covenant loyalty/faithfulness to his people.
Jay, I believe chesed (also spelled as cheseth?) was a word that Dr. Clyde Miller at Lipscomb often emphasized in his classes. If I remember correctly he defined it as steadfast love. I’m thankful I have remembered some of his emphases almost forty years later. I took Psalms under him as a freshman and was too immature to appreciate his wisdom. Four years later, after graduating, I had come to appreciate Dr. Miller’s classes so much that I took Psalms from him again simply for my own spiritual enrichment.
Jay said : “who fail to be baptized correctly due to being wrongly instructed as new converts (“convert” meaning someone with faith, whether or not yet baptized, with no implication intended as to their saved status).”
Many times Jay has labeled our baptisms “flawed baptisms”, I’ve asked Jay before why our baptisms are flawed, he didn’t answer my question. Jay posted here we have failed to be baptized correctly having been instructed wrongly. I was instructed to be baptized as a believer in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19. How was my baptism a fail as Jay put it?
Jay says those with faith are converts, a convert is a person who has been converted, a person’s heart and mind has been changed, there has been an inward regeneration. A lost person cannot be a convert, no conversion has happened, there has been no change to the person’s existing state.
Rubel Shelly does a great job talking about baptism at the 2014 Pepperdine Lectureships that you can find free on iTunes. It is a great compliment to this series.
Thank you for teaching us, Jay. It is unfolding beautifully and people are sharing this. Prayers for strength.
Thanks for bringing this up and discussing it. This makes more sense than anything I ever heard from a Christian pulpit. Sadly, too many people have forgotten than Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who had been foretold for ages and Paul was a Jew who explained things in light of the Torah and Prophets. The Jewish basis of Christianity is not often mentioned.
Grace wrote,
Grace, have you ever shared with us your baptismal theology. You’ve said you’re not a Baptist. You’re not from within the Churches of Christ.
I’ve never said that your baptism is flawed. I’ve said that Baptist theology is flawed and so their baptismal practice is less than perfect. I’ve said far more often that the baptismal theology and practice of the Churches of Christ is also often flawed.
I have also said that those flaws are covered by grace. “Flawed” does not equal “fail.” They did not fail of their intended purpose. That’s your word, not mine.
But I have no idea what your baptismal theology is except you sound very Baptist to me — and you say you’re not a Baptist, and I’m sure that’s true. So I just don’t know what you believe.
And I do detest the Sinner’s Prayer practice. I’m sure that countless thousands have been saved despite the errors inherent in the practice, and I’ve never said that people who’ve said the Sinner’s Prayer are therefore damned. I’ve taught quite the opposite — most recently in the Muscle & Shovel series.
But it’s still a theological nightmare, and many Baptist pastors and scholars are arriving at the same conclusion. David Platt, at the Southern Baptist Convention no less, called it “idolatry”! So my criticisms aren’t a matter of anti-Baptist bigotry. I’m just echoing what many of the most prominent Baptists are saying. They’re right — although “idolatry” is a little over the top, even for me.
Jay said: “But I have no idea what your baptismal theology is except you sound very Baptist to me.”
If you have no idea from the many comments I’ve made about what I believe about baptism, how do you conclude that what I believe sounds very Baptist to you, you certainly do have an idea of what I believe, otherwise you wouldn’t have reached a conclusion.
Jay said: “I’ve said that Baptist theology is flawed and so their baptismal practice is less than perfect.”
That is not what you said in your post, Jay, you said, “those with a genuine, penitent faith in Jesus (hereafter, simply “faith”) who fail to be baptized correctly due to being wrongly instructed as new converts.”
Jay said: “who fail to be baptized correctly”
You used the word fail referring to people’s baptisms who are not baptized as you were. You still haven’t answered my question, why are our baptisms flawed? How was my baptism a fail? Since you were baptized correctly and we are not, would you tell us how that is so?
There are many Baptist pastors and scholars who do not agree with David Platt, and of course you would use someone who leans toward your theology. You said your calling is to the theological disagreements within the CofC church and not the Baptist church, but I guess it is your calling to point out their disagreements while your denomination has yet to take the huge log out of your eye.
And as I said in your post, “Baptism: A Different Approach to Colossians 2:11-14”, Just so you know I’m not going to entertain whatever has caused you to have such animosity toward Baptist churches to speak about them with such rivalry and the bent you have to single them out in many of your posts. The people I know who go to Baptist churches are warm, kind and gracious people who love God and other people.
Jay said: “And I do detest the Sinner’s Prayer practice. I’m sure that countless thousands have been saved despite the errors inherent in the practice, and I’ve never said that people who’ve said the Sinner’s Prayer are therefore damned.”
You can say it is error, though I don’t believe that is true. Jesus taught that one who calls out to God is a humble person.
I don’t consider calling out to God a NT concept, believers have always cried out to God. Praying is not a ritual or rite, it is a person speaking or crying out to God.
Here is what Jesus said about calling out to God as He was teaching people.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
John 14:12-14 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
I believe a person receives salvation when they have faith in Christ and that their brokenness is why the person cries out to God.
Romans 10:13 “For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” is a reference to Joel 2:32:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Psalm 34:18 The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart. And He saves those who are broken in spirit.
Psalm 116:3-6 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow. Then I called upon the name of the LORD: O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul! Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful. The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me.
“God is under no obligation to be “just” in his dealings with humanity”.
Are you suggesting that God could use cruel and unusual punishment and still be perfectly just? Going by what you said previously, I’ll assume you Only mean God doesn’t Owe us anything. Yet because of his unfailing love, he chooses to be kind, just, and merciful toward us. But I think(only because of His intrinsic nature) he is still obligated to be just. It’s no more possible for God to be unjust then for him to lie(as Paul states emphatically later on in Romans).
I firmly believe Gehenna is no more then a visual metaphor for post-annihilation(or better yet, post-execution). The fire and worms are symbolic for eternal death without hope of resuscitation. This place will not have guests until Jesus returns. For now the dead do not exist(by that I mean conscience) until The Resurrection.
I think this new view might appeal better to atheists and agnostics who feel God is unfair to assign disbelievers to hell. But when they realize that faithlessness in scripture has to do with betrayal of trust and not lack of belief, this might very well draw them to him!
RJ,
I agree with the conditionalist position you state. And you are right that God is only required to be true to his nature.
I just don’t buy the argument that Jesus died for our sins in order to satisfy some law of justice that binds God. Because that’s not justice.
Justice isn’t the principle that someone, anyone must be punished for a crime. It’s that the guilty person must be punished. The idea that Jesus accepted punishment for us is taken from Isaiah and certainly true — but it’s not justice. It’s grace. It is in fact the fulfillment of God’s covenant made with Abraham with the trough filled with the blood of sacrificed animals. Hence, it’s righteous — faithful to the covenant.
Therefore, I just don’t buy Luther’s translation in Rom 3:26. Dikaios is the root word for “righteousness,” which I take to refer to covenant faithfulness. Why use the very same root and change the meaning from righteous to just? (NET Bible footnotes “just” to say that “righteous” is an alternative translation. “Righteous” is a meaning given in the Greek dictionaries. Context governs.
Is God “just”? Unquestionably. The OT repeatedly pictures him as a fair and impartial judge. But the point of Romans isn’t that God is fair — it’s that he’s more than fair, because being gracious is his nature. And Luther’s view of justice — that someone must pay the price for someone else’s sin — is not justice in any sense I’m familiar with. It’s covenant faithfulness — and hence in fact true to God’s character.
I could have explained it better in the main post, and I appreciate the opportunity to lay the argument out perhaps a little better.
Grace,
Every quotation on prayer that you posted was delivered to people who were already dwelling in covenant relationship with God. Thus, those passages discuss how to relate to the Lord with whom the one praying is already bound by covenant. None of those verses discuss how to enter into covenant with that Lord.
The grave issue that Jay and I have with the Sinner’s Prayer practice as it is commonly understood is that it is presented as a means of entry into covenant relationship with God.
Nowhere does the Bible present the Sinner’s Prayer as the normative means of entry into covenant with God. That’s where the issue lies.
The people He was speaking to did not have a relationship with Him, they had yet to believe He is the Messiah. Jesus spoke that it is normative, here is what Jesus said teaching these people.
Jesus was speaking to the people about the Good News of the Kingdom:
Matthew 4:23 Jesus traveled throughout the region of Galilee, teaching in the synagogues and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom. And he healed every kind of disease and illness.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Jesus was speaking to the religious people who thought they were righteous by the things they do:
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10-14 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Jesus was speaking to the disciples who didn’t believe who He is:
John 14:7-11 If you had really known Me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him!” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father! So why are you asking Me to show Him to you? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak are not My own, but my Father who lives in Me does His work through me. Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen Me do.
John 14:12-14 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
I believe a person receives salvation when they have faith in Christ and that their brokenness is why the person cries out to God.
Romans 10:13 “For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” is a reference to Joel 2:32.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Psalm 34:18 The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart. And He saves those who are broken in spirit.
Psalm 116:3-6 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow. Then I called upon the name of the LORD: O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul! Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful. The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me.
Grace,
When you pick and chose verses then take them out of their context and ignore other text communicating upon the subject, you can actually make the Bible support anything you desire.
In the case above there are a lot more text dealing with a sinners conversion, including direct quotations stating that there is a specific way to call upon the Lord and a method of doing that that will be rejected. I noticed you avoided them.
Actually I gave the context of the verses to show who Jesus was speaking to and that they had not accepted who He is.
I also gave the reference to Romans 10:13 “For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” which is from Joel 2:32 that comes from the Hebrew Scriptures they had during that time.
Both the Hebrew and Greek words for “call” means “to call, cry, to utter aloud, call out, call upon, or call upon someone for aid”. It is to call a person by saying their name.
Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name(than Jesus) under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. Jesus taught the disciples in Mathew 28 to baptize learners into the “name” of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Jews in Acts 2:38 were told to repent and be baptized into the “name” of Jesus. Acts 8:16 the Samaritans had simply been baptized into the “name” of Jesus. Later on, Philip preached unto the eunuch Jesus and he saw water and desired baptism(into the name). In Luke’s account in Acts 9 Ananias heals Saul’s blindness and he got up and was baptized(doesn’t mention calling on the name). However, in Acts 22 Paul gives his own account of that event when he says Ananias told him to “get up and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his “name.’ In Acts 19:5 some disciples of John were taught and baptized into the “name” of Jesus.
All this to say, that being baptized into the name of Jesus is calling on the name of the Lord to be saved. And all who call on the “name” of the Lord shall be saved(Acts 2:21). And if being baptized into the name(is invoking that name to save you) then it follows that for those under the New Covenant that is how we are saved. We believe(trust in the name) when we invoke that deity’s name in baptism to save us and wash our sins away. It’s the normal conversion story in Acts. Can God make an exception and cleanse a person’s heart by faith in Jesus without baptism? Sure! But it’s not the norm. There is no example post resurrection of anyone who called upon the name of Jesus separate and apart from being baptized into the name. From all that can be gathered, to “call upon the name of the Lord”(the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy) was to be baptized into the name of Jesus, invoking his name in order to be saved.
The people didn’t have the book of Acts written at that time. They had the Hebrew Scriptures from which “call on the name of the LORD” is referenced from.
Genesis 4:26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.
The meaning of the name Enosh means frail, mortal man. Enosh realized his frailty and mortality, and the vanity of human life without God. So, he began to call on the name of Jehovah, the Hebrew word for Lord.
The name Jehovah means I am that I am. Jehovah is the eternal God, the only One who is. Enosh, this frail mortal man realized he needed the eternal God.
Throughout thousands of years people have cried out from the depths of their being to God, to draw near to, to cry out to, and to have a relationship with the omnipotent One. Calling on the Lord began with the earliest generations of mankind recorded in the Bible that comes from the deepest part within man.
Here are references of how people “Call on the name of the LORD” that come from the very same Hebrew Scriptures Joel 2:32 comes from.
Genesis 4:26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.
Genesis 12:8 Then he went from there to the mountain east of Bethel. He put up his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the Lord and called upon the name of the Lord.
Genesis 26:25 So Isaac built an altar there. And he called upon the name of the Lord. He put up his tent there. And there Isaac’s servants dug a well.
Psalm 86:5 For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.
Psalm 116:3-6 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow. Then I called upon the name of the LORD: O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul! Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful. The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me.
To call on the name of the Lord does not mean baptism neither in Hebrew or Greek.
Both the Hebrew and Greek words for “call” means “to call, cry, to utter aloud, call out, call upon, or call upon someone for aid”. In both the Hebrew and Greek it is to call a person by saying their name.
Romans 10:12-13 This includes everyone, because there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles; God is the same Lord of all and richly blesses all who call to Him. As the Scripture says, “Everyone who calls out to the Lord for help will be saved.”
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!
Yes and then you have Phillip teaching the Ethiopian eunuch from Isaiah and then the eununch asking “Here is water what keepeth me from being baptized?”, which didn’t come from Isaiah. The OT was used to teach Jesus coming and they taught Jesus plan from that point as noted in Acts 2.
Now calling on the name of the Lord might not be exactly the same as baptism, but they are connected and closely related. If we are to place baptism in the box of works, then what is calling on the name of the Lord if not a work also as it is something that is done?
In regards to prayer there were Gentiles who prayed and were heard by God (Acts 10) before being saved and yet they were still called on to respond in the way they were told to? If we compare this with Abraham who communicated with God, but God wanted an acknowledgment of Abraham’s faith, which is where Isaac came in. The point is that we should not try to bypass God’s will and God’s desire.
Being baptized into the name of Jesus meant something. Paul had been fasting and praying (presumably to God) for 3 days(Acts 9:9) prior to Ananias showing up and “telling him what he must do” (Acts 9:6). Was he not during those 3 days crying out to God? For what reason? Forgiveness? Contrition? Certainly! Fasting is a sign of repentance and brokenness in this case. The man is blind, he’s been given a glimmer of light(hope) instead of Jesus destroying him, that a man will come see him and instruct him on what he “must do.” Included in what he must do was “be a light to the Gentiles”, and then he said, “What are you waiting on, get up, be baptized and wash away your sin,calling on the name of the Lord.”
Is “be baptized” not something Paul had to do? Could he have just skipped it and cried out for salvation? Had he not already been doing that for 3 days? Would this really be the first time in 3 days of blindness, prayer and fasting that he would cry out to God? Or is there something in the commands of Ananias that Paul would have not known to do, until he was instructed? Does baptism wash away sins or is that symbolic for something Paul had already done but didn’t know he had? If so, what would the symbolic ritual mean to him? Or did Paul (and us) need to have a ceremony whereby he(we) could actually feel and accept(receive) God’s forgiveness through the death and resurrection of the Jesus that he met on the road to Damascus?
If Paul had already been “crying out to God” or “calling on the name of the Lord”(I believe he had) then why was he instructed by Ananias to get up? Wasn’t he on his knees or lying prostrate on the ground? Isn’t that the best position to call on HIs name? It seems pretty evident that what Paul was commanded to do was, “Be baptized,” and for what purpose? To, “wash away his sin.” Paul was still “in sin” even though he had been fasting and praying, and crying out to God for 3 days. Paul would have understood his baptism in the context of Isaiah 6:7 “See this has touched your lips, your guilt has been atoned for.” Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, and Paul would have understood being baptized as an act by which God would remove his guilt and shame(no more fasting and praying about his condition). It is God who removes sin, not the act of baptism itself, any more so than it was the actual coal that touched Isaiah’s lips that took away his sins and made him clean, but it is the method by which that grace was imparted for Isaiah, as it is with baptism for us.
The calling on the name of the Lord, I believe, fits in well with asking God for a clean conscience(1 Peter 3:21) or the asking for baptism by the repentant believer, and making a declaration of faith that Jesus is Lord. That He(Jesus) is the One who saves. The one name under heaven by which all men must be saved. It would be a monumental shift in his theology for Paul to cry out to Jesus, and not just Yaweh. But it’s what Paul “had to do.” He had to turn to a risen peasant, as his Messiah, the same name he had scorned as he stood at the feet of those who stoned Stephen when Stephen cried out he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Now Saul(Paul) would have to cry out to Jesus to remove his sin, and save him, as he committed himself to Jesus as his Lord in this act. It was not optional.
Praying is not a ritual or rite, it is a person speaking or crying out to God. I believe a person receives salvation when they have faith in Christ and that their brokenness is why the person cries out to God.
The whole Bible is about God saving people through His plan from the beginning. I don’t believe baptism as salvic, I see it pointing to the One who saved us.
God’s salvation is from the beginning of the foundations of the earth since He first created man. From the people before the Cross looking forward with symbolic acts pointing to the One who would save them from their sins, to people after the Cross looking back with symbolic acts pointing to the One who saved us from our sins. It’s through faith in Christ alone, our only Savior, people (before and after the Cross) are saved.
David understood God’s salvation. David got it right, while there are still so many who don’t.
Psalm 34:18 The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart. And He saves those who are broken in spirit.
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
God accounted Abraham as righteous when Abraham had faith before he did any acts that were righteous. And this same grace is given to all when they have faith.
Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4:2-3 Because if Abraham was made righteous because of his actions, he would have had a reason to brag, but not in front of God. What does the scripture say? Abraham had faith in God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Baptism is not a ritual either unless you plan on doing it many times over. Baptism is a one time or should be considered a one time event from lost to Christ. It is following Christ to the grave and out of it. You see Grace we can consider everything in the Bible ritualistic if we want to, even the Lord’ Supper, but the meaning far outwieghs the ritual. I don’t consider eating food ritualistic, I consider it needful even though I do it daily. Baptism was needful and commanded and had purpose and meaning as well as the Lord’s Supper. The problem with the Jews was that they made many of the things just about ritual and had lost the meanings, except the Passover, which was dripping with meaning. Perhaps this is why Jesus made the Lord’s Supper from it, but we can even make crying out to God meaningless and rote, as well as praying by praying the same thing over and over again, which Jesus commanded against. Things, even Holy things, lose meaning when we refuse to see the meaning in them as placed there by God. It isn’t God’s fault, but ours.
I don’t think at all that Abraham, David or any of the believers in Jehovah (also meaning salvation) did any ritual that wasn’t meaningful, they illustrated the truth of the Messiah, who spoke to them, who would come to be the actual Perfect Lamb to take away their sins.
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
I celebrate Passover with my Jewish and Gentile brothers and sisters and it is very meaningful to us as we look to Jesus as our Passover Lamb.
I don’t believe baptism takes away sins, only Jesus can take away sins. I don’t believe we baptize lost people, we baptize believers, a person who has been converted, their heart and mind has been changed, there has been an inward regeneration. A lost person cannot be a convert, no conversion has happened, there has been no change to the person’s existing state.
Cornelius was a devout man a Gentile who believed in the God. There were Jews and Gentiles who believed in God, but they didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
Acts 10:34-48 Cornelius along with relatives and friends were saved through faith before they were baptized.
Acts 15:8-11 Peter proclaimed before the council that their conversion is the norm.
Acts 15:8-11 And God, who knows the thoughts of everyone, showed His approval of the Gentiles by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He had to us. He made no difference between us and them; He forgave their sins because they believed. So then, why do you now want to put God to the test by laying a load on the backs of the believers which neither our ancestors nor we ourselves were able to carry? No! We believe and are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.
The King of kings was willing to come to earth to give His life to be with us forever, He is also willing to meet anyone right where they are to forgive them.
You see you, and I mean you, make the distinctions where you want them to be, despite what the scripture says. Mark 16:16 the apostles are told to “go into the word making believers and baptizing them for salvation” in James “Salvation comes through water…baptism now saves you”, we are “buried in Christ” in baptism. The disconnect is your own as you won’t believe…also called faith…won’t believe what the scriptures clearly say and point to. I can’t argue that Christ isn’t the point, but Christ isn’t here and his own message in MArk 16:16 before He left was His plan for us.
We are often like the person on the house when the flood rages around us and three rescue boats come by and we tell the would be rescuers, “No I am waiting for God to save me.” and then we drown and God comes to judge us and we indignatly ask why He didn’t save us in the flood and God says, “Well I did send three boats.” We want things on our terms within the realms of our understanding and won’t accept anything else.
The thing about Cornelius is that they recieved the Holy Spirit, which didn’t mean they were saved, but it indicated to Peter that they were worthy of being saved, which was what Peter was told previously as well. They hadn’t heard Peter speak fully, so no faith in the gospel, and they hadn’t been baptized, which is what is expressed in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:28. We can’t isolate the scriptures you give from the context of all of the scriptures. In Acts 15 Peter talks of the fact that the Holy Spirit was linked to showing Peter that God did not make distinctions. If they were purified by faith, then why were the baptized at all? What did the baptism prove? They were purified by faith in that they did the things of faith by faith. If we can be purified by faith, then this makes faith the avenue and not Christ, which is your argument against baptism. We don’t need Christ now, but faith.
If Paul(Saul) or Cornelius and his family or the Philippian jailor and his family or those on Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, or any others, if any of these had refused baptism, they would not have been considered members of the one body of Christ. They would not have been thought of as having clothed themselves with Christ, having been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. They would not have been thought of as having their sins washed away. They would have been thought of as believers(but not yet saved) who didn’t, or wouldn’t, act in faith. As in (John 12:42) Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him(saved or not saved?). But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear of being put out of the synagogue. John says they truly believed Jesus was he Messiah, didn’t that make them saved? They had faith, but they wouldn’t admit to others what they believed(Jesus as Messiah). It was a belief but not true faith.
Now today, we certainly have believers who are not taught the necessity of being baptized, but thank goodness most believers eventually get baptized, but make no mistake, when we read our Bible’s concerning what men and women had to do to respond by faith, baptism was not optional. It was not an after thought. As a matter of fact it was the second thing on Peter’s mind when the Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius and his family. HIs first thought was pure shock(he couldn’t believe the Holy Spirit had come upon them as in the same manner He came upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost(hadn’t happened since then). And the very next thought was not let’s celebrate or congratulate every body, hugs and kisses, or sing Kum Ba Ya . What was it? He asked the men with him ,”who can forbid (water) baptism?” Are you good with it? Are you sir? What about you? Everyone with Peter (Jews)signed off on it. If it didn’t mean anything why was it immediate front and center on Peter’s thoughts? It’s why he explained his reasons for baptizing them in (Acts 11:17), “Who was I to think that I could oppose God.” How would Peter have opposed God? By not commanding them to be baptized into Christ(the Church). Could it be said of people today that when they don’t instruct new believers to be baptized into Christ that they are opposing God? What of people who say it isn’t necessary?
Monty, I do not know of a single Southern Baptist minister who would say that a person who refused to be baptized had real faith. They would say that the death bed profession where the person was unable to be baptized, or of a person who was willing to be baptized but was awaiting baptism would be sufficient. They would say that God judges the heart and knows the willingness to obey in faith. Refusal of a person to be baptized because they don’t want to be is rebellion and demonstrates a lack of truly submitting to Jesus as KING. Baptist have a high regard on baptism, they just believe that God imparts his salvation at the time of submission and acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah not in the water.
Let us considr Apollos. Apollos was baptized into John’s baptism and I doubt anyone would say that Apollos didn’t have faith and yet he was told that John’s baptism didn’t save and they were rebaptized into Christ. The one baptism wasn’t the same as the other baptism, even though the faith was the same. There is a reason why faith and baptism is for salvation in MArk 16:16, because Jesus says it is. James says “saved through water, namely baptism.” We find ourselves arguing agianst scripture to satisfy a polarity of thought of one being more important than another.
I would argue that God determines what He will accept upon dying, but has determined what he wants before dying. We cannot confuse the two things.
In the scriptures it says that Jesus was fully God and fully human. But it was argued in the early times that this could not be, so they argued that Jesus came in the form of flesh and others argued that Jesus was just human. The scriptures indicate that Jesus was both God and human. Now we are arguing that baptism is good, but not needed, while others are arguing that it is the works that save, namely Catholics. The truth is that they are both a fulfillment of each other and apart they are worthless, which was James thought. I am reminded of Jesus statement on marriage, “That which God has joined together, man cannot put asunder.” This is true of what God has joined as far as salvation and really it is the beginning of salvation, it is really a covenant agreement towards the promise.
Dwight said: “The thing about Cornelius is that they recieved the Holy Spirit, which didn’t mean they were saved, but it indicated to Peter that they were worthy of being saved, which was what Peter was told previously as well. They hadn’t heard Peter speak fully, so no faith in the gospel, and they hadn’t been baptized.”
So according to Dwight, God sent Peter to preach the gospel and Peter went thinking he was just wasting his time preaching the gospel to people. And God would stop the gospel from being preached to give the Gentiles the Holy Spirit so that Peter and the few he brought with him would baptize them.
People from the CofC denomination sure don’t like that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles before they were baptized, it’s not their theology, their theology is that you have to be baptized before you receive the Holy Spirit. And so they try so hard arguing to change it to the Gentiles didn’t hear any message and received the Holy Spirit, rather than what Luke said that all who HEARD the word received the Holy Spirit. They have Peter baptizing unbelievers.
Luke wrote that Peter came to speak with the Gentiles, and Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. The gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard as Luke recorded in Acts 10:44, that “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit purifying their hearts by faith.
All that was needed was the gospel of Jesus to be “heard”, and according to Luke they heard the gospel and believed and were given the Holy Spirit.
Cornelius and the other Gentiles were purified, made clean when they believed. They didn’t need to have faith in Peter or anything else to save them, they had faith in Jesus as they heard the gospel and God accepted them giving them His Holy Spirit.
When the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit they began praising God, just as Jesus had said, John 7:37-38 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
I was that person on the house, lost and surrounded by darkness, with my sins killing me. And there were times people came to tell me that God wants to save me, that I needed to have faith Jesus. I was getting weak and tired and did have fears not knowing what was going to happen to me next. But then one day when someone came to tell me about God wanting to save me, I realized I would never look at them when they were talking to me about God. I actually looked this time at them and they weren’t by themselves, Jesus was with them, He had been with each of them when they came to me. They were telling me how much God loves me and that He didn’t want to see me die. Jesus was standing on the roof right next to me saying, trust in Me and I will carry you across to other side where you will be safe. Being weak and tired knowing I was going to die, I put my trust in Him to save me and He picked me up in His arms and carried me, He saved me the moment He put His arms around me. His hand that took the nail reached out to me right where I was and saved me.
Matthew 18:11-12 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
I just want to make it clear that most of those who believe that baptism is essentiol for salvation also understand that faith is needed and that it must be a faith that moves one to act and respond as they did in Acts 2. The argument of when one is saved is divisive because only God decides ultimately when one is saved as even after a person declares faith and even if they are baptized they are still subject to God’s final analysis, so even having faith is not the point of salvation. The point of salvation is God. Even so on our level we must try to do the will of God in what way we can to the best of our abilities. When we start making excuses for not doing something, then we are falling into the realm of Naaman who would not have been healed if he would have held to the excuses and not done the simple thing of dipping in the water, which took faith. We can ask a lot of questions/make a lot of assumptions about what might happen if Naaman was on his way to the water, but in the end it is are we bowing down to God’s will and obeying it when we can.
Most people from the CofC denomination go to Naaman to try to prove that someone has to be baptized before God will forgive them. Naaman wasn’t a follower of the God of Israel, it was after he was healed he came to have faith and became a believer in Yahweh as his God. To use Naaman as the example how the CofC denomination baptizes people would be that you baptize unbelievers.
Naaman needed proof that the God of Israel is the one true God.
Let us look also at the blind man who Jesus accepted his faith and healed him.
Luke 18:35-43 Then it happened, as He was coming near Jericho, that a certain blind man sat by the road begging. And hearing a multitude passing by, he asked what it meant. So they told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by. And he cried out, saying, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Then those who went before warned him that he should be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him. And when he had come near, He asked him, saying, “What do you want Me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, that I may receive my sight.” Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw it, gave praise to God.
This man didn’t need to see proof to believe Jesus is the Lord, Jesus said his faith was enough.
Grace,
I believe that you have admitted that you and many that you have taught have been baptized. If that is not true why did you not follow the example taught by Peter in the conversion which you site as an example of salvation? What example in scriptures could you use to explain an authority for lack of following the example?
Larry, do you believe all who are baptized will be judged “saved” ?
I’m not a pastor, if that’s what you think. Though, we all are called to tell others the gospel of Jesus.
Why would any Christian want another Christian to say we shouldn’t be baptized? I would never tell a Christian not to be baptized.
I was baptized with the Great Commission Jesus gave to us in Matthew 28:19.
If someone was to refuse to be baptized or if someone was telling others to refuse to be baptized, I would probably think they don’t have God’s Spirit living in them.
Romans 8:7-9 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. Those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to Him at all.
So you are saying that Naaman did not believe that he would be healed by dipping in the Jordan seven times and if so then why do it? Just the fact that Naaman did it speaks of faith in the doing and the why and the one who would accomplish that. Again the healing didn’t happen on the way to being dipped, but after it was done. It is true that Naaman didn’t understand the power of God until afterwards, but that is often the case with us as we don’t often understand things until we do them. Faith secures the work and works secures the faith. Naaman didn’t need proof, but maybe wanted proof and yet he still did the will of God anyway which speaks of faith for what is faith…”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” To quote U2 “somtimes seeing isn’t believing, but believing is seeing.”
Larry, the Jerusalem church sold their goods and had all things common. Paul had Timothy circumcised. Jesus paid taxes he did not owe. “What example in scriptures could you use to explain an authority for lack of following the example?” Or do we perhaps cherry-pick our “examples” just a bit?
2 Kings 5:8-15
“But when Elisha the prophet heard about the king of Israel’s plight, he sent this message to him: “Why are you so upset? Send Naaman to me, and he will learn that there is a true prophet of God here in Israel.”
So Naaman arrived with his horses and chariots and stood at the door of Elisha’s home. Elisha sent a messenger out to tell him to go and wash in the Jordan River seven times and he would be healed of every trace of his leprosy! But Naaman was angry and stalked away.
“Look,” he said, “I thought at least he would come out and talk to me! I expected him to wave his hand over the leprosy and call upon the name of the Lord his God and heal me! Aren’t the Abana River and Pharpar River of Damascus better than all the rivers of Israel put together? If it’s rivers I need, I’ll wash at home and get rid of my leprosy.” So he went away in a rage.
But his officers tried to reason with him and said, “If the prophet had told you to do some great thing, wouldn’t you have done it? So you should certainly obey him when he says simply to go and wash and be cured!”
So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the prophet had told him to. And his flesh became as healthy as a little child’s, and he was healed! Then he and his entire party went back to find the prophet; they stood humbly before him and Naaman said, “I know at last that there is no God in all the world except in Israel; now please accept my gifts.”
Naaman was told to wash at a specific river, the Jordan, he couldn’t go to any other place with water to be healed.
It wasn’t faith that he went to the river, Naaman went because his officers begged him to. They never told him to have faith when he went, they were like, why not just give a try, you’d do harder things when asked to, and you have leprosy so it couldn’t hurt to try it.
It was after Naaman was cured he came to have faith in the true God of Israel.
Naaman was not a follower of the God of Israel. It was after he was healed he came to have faith and became a believer in Yahweh as his God, so to use Naaman as the example how the CofC denomination baptizes people would be that you baptize unbelievers.
The question is:
which side of salvation is baptism on? Which direction does the arrow point ? Towards salvation or pointing backwards on the other side of salvation? If repentance is pre-salvation, then so is baptism. If repentance is post salvation then so is baptism. Baptism is spoken of in the same sentence as believing in Mark 16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. If believing is before salvation and unto salvation, (no one is saved before believing) then baptism must be unto or towards salvation also. It’s in the same sentence joined by the conjunction and. Unless you want to totally do harm to the sentence by making “he that believeth” be towards salvation and (and is baptized) be pointing backwards on the other side of salvation. If you do that you have to admit that’s weird and then what is John’s point about baptism? It appears by grammatical structure to mean believing and being baptized is what is required for salvation.
In Acts 2:38 Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” They had already come to believe (hundreds of them) that they had crucified their Messiah, that’s why they were pricked in their hearts. Now they are asking for a way of escaping God’s wrath for doing so. Peter gave them the answer. They already believed, but that didn’t resolve their sin problems(nor their guilt). I would even argue that some were already showing repentance(pricked in their hearts) and all they needed was to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Spirit of God. But Peter commanded “all” who were there(everyone of you) to repent and be baptized(Peter was speaking to those who were believing on Jesus and to all who would come to believe on Jesus that day). If they(believers) had to repent to be saved, then they also had to be baptized to be saved. They’re in the same sentence, both listed before forgiveness of sins.
If they(those coming to belief in Jesus) had to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, then you can’t have them saved before baptism. Grace has already said, you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation, not a minute before. Repentance and Baptism in Acts 2:38 is towards the Holy Spirit and hence toward salvation. It is not on the other side looking back at salvation, which is the popular teaching of today. If baptism looks back at salvation, then so does repentance, but no one argues that, just baptism. But if repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of sins is post salvation, then so is receiving the Holy Spirit, because repenting and being baptized as Peter states are toward receiving the Holy Spirit.
Now, some on here would argue that in Acts 10(Cornelius and family receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism) is the norm for all salvation experiences. But it clearly is an aberration and doesn’t follow Peter’s own inspired teaching in Acts 2. and the other conversion stories. So, if the Acts 10 account is not typical, then we have to ask why and for what purpose did God give the Spirit before baptism? Was it not to prove to Peter that Gentiles are fit for the kingdom of God without having to be circumcised(become Jews 1st)? Grace and others point to Peter’s giving account to his Jewish circumcision requiring brethren that God cleansed heir hearts by faith just as he did our hearts too. As if Peter is saying, see salvation comes before baptism. But that was not what Peter’s point was(it is Grace’s). Peter’s point was that they couldn’t require them(Gentiles) to become Jews(by circumcising them) first, before they could be baptized into the previous all circumcised -Jewish church. What Peter argues is that God’s Spirit came upon them before he could even get close to commanding them to become Jews first, they were “approved by God”, and their approval negated their need(as Peter and his cohorts would have commanded) to become Jews first, before baptism into the church.
If Peter asked his Jewish brethren if anyone could forbid water, then forbidding them baptism was what was on their mind. Would they forbid water on the basis of them being Gentiles if the Holy Spirit had not fallen on them? Yes! If Peter even raises the question after seeing them receive the Holy Spirit then we would have to assume it would have been a bone of contention without it happening. The Holy Spirit proved to Peter and his brethren that salvation was by faith and faith had nothing to do with becoming a Jew(being circumcised) 1st. They now understood God is not a respecter of nationality. God in essence nipped a potential catastrophic problem in the bud by the Holy Spirit falling on Gentiles before Peter and company could get to the part about “oh yeh and now that you believe on Jesus you Gentiles need to become Jews 1st before we can baptize you into the Lords church.” God pulled the rug out from under the circumcision question.
What Peter meant by cleansing their heart by faith like ours was, salvation is by trusting in a resurrected Jesus and not tied to Jewish law keeping. No one would argue that today. But clearly God intervened in sending the Holy Spirit (pre-proselyte/circumcision and also pre-baptism commands) to these first Gentile converts, to show Gentiles could be Christians without having to become Jews first and avoid any doubt. Peter would say since God gave them(Gentile believers) the same gift as he did us(Jews) who believed, who was I that I should be able to restrain God? Peter could not require them to be circumcised but he could and did require them to be immersed into Christ. Think about it. One negates faith and is horrible, the other is of faith and beautiful and is commanded. God moved in a way that he had previously not moved since Pentecost to show Gentiles who believed need not be circumcised to be saved. It has nothing whatsoever to do with negating the command to be baptized into Christ. What is the purpose of even asking if they could forbid water, if water is irrelevant and a non-factor in becoming a son of Abraham?
Naaman was the commander of the Syrian army and didn’t have to do anything no matter the begging and even balked at the concept of the dirty Jordan. The messengers argued that it was a simple thing to do for such a reward. Naaman’s expectation was that he would be healed, otherwise why go at all? The text never argues that “it couldn’t hurt to try it.” Naaman had expectations of being healed and so he was. If it is your argument that Naaman did not have faith, then does this mean that you can be baptized without faith and be saved? I don’t think you would argue that. Naaman could have dipped three times and said that is enough, but he went the distance, which showed that he was expecting something on the otherside of the full obedience. We can say alot of things…but in the end he was washed clean…very clean…spotless.
I know you think that this is a work and it is legalistic, but is bowing down to God’s will legalistic and isn’t faith a work, because there are scriptures that say so. We don’t seek to divide the scriptures, but unite.
Since your baptismal water is “holy water” and removes sins (Catholics teach the same thing) then I hope your water comes from the Jordan River in Israel where Naaman had to go and get his miracle. And after you baptize people perhaps they will come to have faith too.
Btw, we do have water that we keep from the Jordan River to put in the baptismal we use to baptize our converts at the church I go to, it is very symbolic of the cleansing we received when we had faith in Jesus who is our true Living Water. And I also was baptized in the Jordan River when I was in Israel, I was so overwhelmed to be baptized there!
Monty said: “Baptism is spoken of in the same sentence as believing in Mark 16:16.”
I would never tell a Christian not to be baptized. It doesn’t say those who are not baptized will be condemned it says those who do not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
And do you teach the rest of what Mark says? Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
It is odd that the CofC denomination cherry pick Naaman as their example of baptism, but they don’t put up any of these Scriptures when they post about their baptismal theology.
Jesus made it very clear that He is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them healing and forgiveness.
Matthew 9:1-2 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
Matthew 9:20-22 Then a woman who had been bleeding for twelve years came up behind Jesus and touched the hem of his clothes. She thought, If I only touch his robe I’ll be healed. When Jesus turned and saw her, he said, “Be encouraged, daughter. Your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed from that time on.
Matthew 9:27-30 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, crying loudly, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” When He entered the house, the blind men came to Him; and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then He touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you.” And their eyes were opened.
Mark 1:40-42 Now a leper came to Him, imploring Him, kneeling down to Him and saying to Him, “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” Then Jesus, moved with compassion, stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.”
Mark 2:1-5 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 17:11-19 Now it happened as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan. So Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?” And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”
Luke 18:35-43 Then it happened, as He was coming near Jericho, that a certain blind man sat by the road begging. And hearing a multitude passing by, he asked what it meant. So they told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by. And he cried out, saying, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Then those who went before warned him that he should be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him. And when he had come near, He asked him, saying, “What do you want Me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, that I may receive my sight.” Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw it, gave praise to God.
Grace I think you have the wrong idea of what baptism is or is supposed to be. James sayus it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God. The power isn’t in the water itself, but the action of the Holy Spirit through the action of the one who is buried with Christ.
I would also agree that the fruit of the vine and unleaneved bread of the Lord’s Supper are not special in and of themselves. Right? But they are when we come to those elements together in assembly. Or do you beleive that the Lord’s Supper is just a physical ritual that has no spiritual meaning and affect?
I agree that faith was all that was needed in Christ healing them, but this is not the case as given for salvation. But then again he did heal a few people that did not have faith. He raised Lazerus up from the grave and faith was not accounted to Lazerus. It was within Jesus power. And the reason we don’t put up the passages you put up is because they do not deal with salvation, but healing. Just because Jesus forgave thier past sins didn’t mean they were salvation bound and were under the grace.
This should be an easy excercise, but pull up baptize and then relate to see if salvation is associated with it, then do faith. What you will see is how both faith and baptism are both associated somtimes together and sometimes apart with salvation.
Cornelius and his family and friends weren’t given the Holy Spirit for Peter and the few with him. God gave them the Holy Spirit because they had faith, they were given the living Spirit of Christ receiving His eternal life in them, God forgave them when they believed in Him. Peter said they received the Holy Spirit just as he and the disciples had. And Peter said their conversion is the norm.
Peter didn’t say, boy I’m sure glad God gave them the Holy Spirit first so I would baptize them. Peter saw thay they believed and knew we are to baptize those who believe in Jesus and told them to be baptized.
God didn’t accept them because Jews accepted them, what a small god that would be. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
Grace,
You state that you would never be guilty of suggesting that an individual who believes would not need to be baptized, “I would never tell a Christian not to be baptized”, yet you constantly project that exact message through your communications. That is the only conclusion that is possible to arrive to from your selection of scriptures and examples is that baptism is not necessary for salvation! You explain to us that. “Since your baptismal water is “holy water” and removes sins (Catholics teach the same thing) then I hope your water comes from the Jordan River in Israel where Naaman had to go and get his miracle”, and I have never read a communication on this blog or anywhere else in Christian teachings that the power to cleans sins was vested in the WATER! Even if adding some of the water from the Jordan River as you say that you do, ” Btw, we do have water that we keep from the Jordan River to put in the baptismal we use to baptize our converts at the church I go to”, to the baptistery could make any (water holy) or enhance in any fashion the water to make the experience more Biblical. I know you only used the term (holy water) to portray that we place so much importance to getting into the water, that we must believe that the water is powerful, (special) (even holy). But did you notice, your statement, “And after you baptize people perhaps they will come to have faith too), you now relate that we baptize individuals who do not have faith!
In your statement above you even state that you baptize (converts), I would have to assume that means individuals who have recently came to belief and faith in Christ. It does appear to be a different term than if you had applied the baptism to the saved. Are converts in the context that you speak of them saved? If so then how long is it after an individual is saved that they would still be referred to as converts? After these converts were baptized do you still refer to them as converts? If so when do they loose that identity and become your brother or sister in Christ?
In response to, “And I also was baptized in the Jordan River when I was in Israel, I was so overwhelmed to be baptized there!”
What in this world would allow you to believe that being baptized again (in the Jordan River) should be better or more important than your first baptism. Don’t the scriptures state that there is only one baptism, why would you believe that the first one was not fully sufficient?
They were already my brothers and sisters when they convrted to Christianity and had faith in Jesus.
And if it bothers you that I was baptized a second time in the Jordan River, then don’t get baptized there. I was in Israel at the Jordan River and it was very meaningful to me to be baptized there.
You put baptism as it is more precious and powerful than Jesus. So much so that it bothers you if someone else is baptized a second time when they were in Israel. Your comment about my being baptized a second time is the average CofC denomination thought “didn’t the first baptism take?”
Dwight said: “And the reason we don’t put up the passages you put up is because they do not deal with salvation, but healing.”
You consider what Naaman did gave him salvation, which the healing proved to him that the God of Israel is the only true God and after he was healed he came to have faith in Yahweh as his God.
But Jesus healing and forgiving people’s sins from their faith in Him you don’t consider gave them salvation.
Ah, so you can cherry pick Naaman and use his healing, but we’re not suppose to use Jesus healing and telling people that their faith is sufficient to give them healing and forgiveness.
A comment as that is also the typical line of thought of someone from the CofC denomination.
Actually I don’t consider what Naaman did to give him salvation, what the point of Naaman is is that God gave him stipulations to do and he did them and without doing them he would not have received the blessing that was expected. Naaman did not have Jesus or the prophets to personally heal him as Jesus healed the people around him. This is not about cherry picking as I hate when people do that myself.
If I tell you to go to Macys because there is a sell and you will get a great deal on a scarf, then if you go to Macy’s you will get a great deal and you do this out of faith in me, but if you don’t go to Macy’s you won’t get a great scarf.
Now the above is very different than if I come to you and I give you a great scarf because you know I give out great scarfs and have done that to others.
The one involves me passing along information that will get you a great scarf while the other involves me personally giving you a great scarf.
I really don’t care how many times a peson has been baptized as long as they have an understanding of why. Actually there are others that beleive that baptism is essential for salvation besides the coC (Martin Luther and John Calvin also taught and beleived in “baptismal regeneration”), but let there be no mistake it isn’t the only essential thing for salvation. Most that believe in baptism also believe in faith in equal parts due to Mark 16:16 and other passages. Faith must come first, but it must not come alone.
This is not about works over faith or faith over works, but faith and works together complimenting each other as God commanded them to do. If I, the foremost authority on PB&Js, tell that in order to make a PB&J you need peanut butter and jelly, but if I say if you leave out the jelly you will not have a PB&J, then you would understand that. This is what Mark 16:16 and other passages are all about. Things working together because they are included together.
Jesus forgave people who had faith in Him, He also gave them blessings healing them and they didn’t have to go to Macy’s to buy the blessings.
For some reason yo equate healing with forgiveness of sins and they are no way close in scope.
During Jesus time on earth he healed hundreds and hundreds of people and forgave some he deemed worthy as He willed. The only baptism going on were by John. Before Jesus ascended He told the apostles to “Go to unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who beleives and is baptized will be save and he who does not beleive will be damned.”
After Jesus ascended, according to scriptures, immediately the baptisms went through the roof directly after the apostles received the Holy Spirit, so we assume they were following the directions of Jesus. The healings declined sharpley.
But there are no records of the apostles forgiving the sin of the people. So how were they saved? Faith and baptism!
After the apostles left we were left with healing by praying with faith.
This is my final comment. It appears you equate baptism for salvation with coC, but if this is true, then Jesus and the apostles and MArtin Luther and John Calvin all had the coC doctrine. This is not true. The only reason many beleive this is because it is written in the scriptures in many places that is very obvious. The only way to not accept the direct statements is to work around it with excuses and trying to equate personal healing and personal forgiveness by Jesus with what we were told to do to be saved in the absence of Jesus, even with the apostles were present.
My admission is that many coC are very bad and judgmental and have created divisions based on human creeds, but many are not and many are breaking away from the “coC molds” as noted in other threads where they talk of unity and not being judgmental. I cannot think of one time here that I or any one had said that you were sinning, even if they thought you were wrong. You will not find this at some other “coC sites”.
Jesus came teaching people about God’s salvation, and He demonstrated, being God in the flesh, His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. And Jesus made it very clear that He is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends that His grace and forgiveness is to all who believe in Him.
The King of kings was willing to come to earth to give His life to be with us forever, He is also willing to meet anyone right where they are to forgive them.
Grace,
I see more clearly now that you have explained, that those whom you baptized were already your brothers and sisters. This projects again that baptism has no purpose as you are applying it. If they are already your brothers and sisters then they are already (in Christ) and there is nothing more that baptism can do for them. I have never seen an explanation in scriptures that portrays a picture of baptisms purpose as to be beneficial or uplifting to all who watch or hear of the action being performed. Baptism is always an action to the benefit of the individual being baptized.
Grace, it really doesn’t have an effect upon me that you were baptized multiple times, but I really thought that if you had understood the description in scripture about baptism, you would understand that just as a human is born from the womb only once and there is a direct comparison by Christ to that action not being performed a second time, but that the second birth was an action making alive again some part of you (a spirit) which was dead and would never need to be performed again as long as that spirit was still living. In fact, as an individual submitted to a second baptism, they are denying that they believe that the first action created a new birth of this spirit. As I understand your position you actually believe that your birth into Christ was accomplished prior to your first baptism, which would mean that baptism performs nothing for you. I guess that is the reason some people believe that baptism is only an outward show of an hidden event taken place inside themselves, the world (referring to others), would never see the action hidden so they have to make it public by conducting this video called DBR displayed in water.
A question then arises why would the second baptism have such a powerful effect on you as you described? How did you become the recipient of the video displaying Christ’s DBandR in place of the outward show for others? You didn’t even mention their excitement or the fact that through your replay of the DBR someone else became a believer in Christ. Wasn’t it for them?
Jesus saved me, why shouldn’t I be excited to be baptized, it’s a beautiful picture symbolizing what my Savior had done for me. Of course my brothers and sisters were excited, anytime any of us do something good we are happy for each other. And if anyone else that was there became a believer, how wonderful!
Grace,
I really was unaware that God would allow men or women to edit his word!
Whatever Larry,
I was excited when I was baptized the first time, Jesus had saved me, of course I was excited to be baptized. My brothers and sisters were excited too, it was a beautiful picture symbolizing what my Savior had done for me.
And I and brothers and sisters were in Israel at the Jordan River and we were overwhelmed to be baptized there. Jesus had saved me, of course I would be excited to be baptized there. And of course my brothers and sisters were excited too, anytime any of us do something good we are happy for each other.
I don’t know how I edited His word doing that, where does God’s word say He will be disappointed if we are in Israel and are baptized there? I don’t see anywhere in the Bible that says you are only allowed to be baptized once.
There is one baptism which means, we are to only to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit that Jesus gave us. He is our Lord who saved us from our sins, and I was baptized how He said we should be.
There is no Scripture prohibiting that we can’t be baptized again if we are in Israel at the Jordan River.
Someone who says it doesn’t bother him, you sure are making a fuss over it. As I said earlier, if it bothers you, then don’t get baptized there. It may not be meaningful to you, but it was very meaningful to me to be baptized there. It was something that was very special to us when we were there.
Grace,
I know many who have done just as you did while close to the Jordan and I mean in different places all along it.
We thought doing so was akin to taking the Lords supper each Sunday. In remembrance of Him.
Anything that brings you closer to God, even for a little while is good.
THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH BY STEVE FINNELL
Why was the Ethiopian eunuch so concerned about being baptized in water?
1. Did the eunuch want to be baptized so he could join the the 1st Church of Philip?
2. Did the eunuch want to be baptized as a testimony of his faith?
3. Did he want be baptized because Jesus commanded it and he wanted to be obedient?
4. Was he in a hurry to be baptized because he realized that water baptism had nothing to do with the forgiveness of his sins?
5. Did the eunuch want to be baptized because his sins were already forgiven?
6. Did he want be baptized to demonstrate that he was saved before he was baptized?
The answer is NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, and NO.
The Ethiopian was in a hurry to be baptized because:
1. He wanted his sins forgiven. (Acts 2:38)
2. He wanted his transgressions forgiven. (Colossians 2:13)
3. He wanted to be saved. (1 Peter 3:21)
4. He wanted to be baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3)
5. He wanted to walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)
6. He wanted his body of sin done away with. (Romans 6.6)
7. He wanted wanted to live with Christ. ( Romans 6:8)
8. He wanted to be saved. (Mark 16:16)
9. He wanted wanted to be clothed with Christ. (Galatians 3:27)
10. He wanted to have his sins washed away. (Acts 22:16)
11. He wanted to be saved. (Titus 3:5)
12. He wanted to enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
13. He wanted the Lord to add him to His church. (Acts 2 :41,47)
14. He wanted to be sanctified. (Ephesians 5:26)
15. He wanted to be blameless and holy. (Ephesians 5:27)
16. He wanted to be free of spots and wrinkles.(Ephesians 5:27)
17. He wanted to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
THE CONVERSION OF THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH (Acts 8:26-38)
Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch.
The first question the eunuch ask was “What prevents me from being baptized?”
Philip said Acts 2:37 [… “If you believe with all your heart you may.” And he answered and said , I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]
When Philip preach Jesus to the eunuch he must have told him what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH WAS SAVED ON THE ROAD FROM JERUSALEM TO GAZA; BUT ONLY AFTER HE BELIEVED AND WAS BAPTIZED!
NOTE: In the New Testament Scriptures there is not one single account of anyone denying water baptism as being essential for the forgiveness of sins. Not one mention of anyone saying I was saved before I was baptized. Not one person stated they were saved before baptism, but were baptized so they could join the local church. Not one individual said I was baptized as a testimony of my faith, but it had nothing to do with my salvation. WHY DO YOU NOT READ ABOUT THESE THINGS HAPPENING IN THE 1ST CENTURY CHURCH? WHY? BECAUSE THESE ARE ALL MAN-MADE TRADITIONS THAT ORIGINATED MUCH LATER. (SEE MY APRIL 17 POST—“THE PRICE OF TRADITION’)
(All Scripture quotes from: NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE)
Dwight, the passage you used about not the putting away the filth of the flesh is found in 1Peter 3:21 please dear brother get it right. As for all the other debate between Christians the only one who likes it is the Enemy.
John, Yes I do get things wrong, It was I Peter and not James, and man I missed that myself as it was many, many entries ago and just barely referenced.
But was the scripture valid none-the-less? I Peter 3:21-22 “There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.”
I Peter equates baptism with salvation, not because it physically cleans us, but because it is the proper response to God who commanded it and who is above all.
All I see here are scriptures that point towards baptism and salvation and human reasoning that points away from it. I have yet to see anybody put forwards a scripture that argues that baptism isn’t what the other scriptures say it is.
Interesting video on the history of CofC denomination
These fellows could have very well laughed and guffawed over their own denomination with it’s 100 or so different “off-shoots”. Most Calvinistic, but some more Arminian. Some who baptize infants(or did they stop doing that?) Some, who believe in once saved always saved, and others believing you can fall from grace. I have even run across some Baptist who baptize for the remission of sins. Even Andy Stanley has referenced the fact that when he was growing up, his church kind of thought they were the only ones who got it right. It doesn’t take much to point out the perceived inconsistencies or errors in others. Just do a little digging in your own tradition’s history or the history of another’s. The Pharisees were good at that.These men in the film would make good ‘church of Christers.” They honestly believe they are saving others from error, as I suppose you are trying to do Grace. Why else would someone frequent a blog of another group when they don’t believe in the fundamental teachings of said group?
Grace, every group has history, some good and some bad, even those of the premillenialisms who have change dates of the rapture/second coming many times. Attacking someone on the past doesn’t address the questions of the now. We can look at the past and see how things got to where they are, but this doesn’t really mean that we are right or wrong in our present condition unless we get to why we are wrong or right from the scriptures. I have been with the coC since I was born, but do not ascribe to all of the things that many in the coC do and do not conisder myself a “church of Christer”, but a Christian and many are like this. But there are many who condemn those in the coC for condeming others, even while many in the coC do not do this, and thus they themselves are guilty of this. The danger of judging another is that you will be judged by the same standard by God. I come here to not fundamentally change the beliefs, as I fundamentally believe the same, but to discuss certain concepts that are brought up and to challenge and be challenged in thought.
Their response is from the attacks and aggression of the CofC denomination toward them.
They said not all churches agree on everything, and these churches don’t have to write magazines, books, and blogs attacking their brothers and sisters.
Alexander Campbell, who started the CofC denomination and supposedly “restored” the “true church and baptism,” had not even baptized when he started his movement and he claimed to be a Christian. And when he finally was baptized, the only time he was baptized, he went to a Baptist preacher to baptize him, and he wasn’t baptized by your baptism theology. And he is the person so many in the CofC denomination commend so much to have supposedly “restored” the church to the true gospel.
So, was Alexander Campbell saved when he “restored” the church to the gospel?
You totally avoided my question.
Alexander Campbell is the person so many in the CofC denomination commend so much to have supposedly “restored” the church to the true gospel.
Alexander Campbell claimed to be a Christian even though he had not been baptized, he was later baptized by a Baptist preacher, and was the only time he was baptized, and he was baptized by his own request to be baptized only upon his confession that Jesus is the Son of God.
So, my question to you is, Was Alexander Campbell saved when he “restored” the church to the gospel?
Which there is another question to be answered since the CofC denomination commend Alexander Campbell so much to have supposedly “restored” the church to the true gospel.
How were people saved before Alexander Campbell “restored” the church?
Grace, Actually many in the coC do not look towards Alexander Campbell as the restorer of the true gospel, but one of those who decided to aim back towards the gospel. The true gospel has always been with us in scripture, but it is man in his own thinking that has veered away from many truths that are foundational, such as baptism and in particular infant baptism. In reality it doesn’t matter if Alexander was saved when he “restored” the church to the true gospel, as the true gospel already existed without him in scripture form. His attempt was to get people back to the scripture and away from man’s traditions, which eventually led him to be baptised from his own conclusions. Alexander Campbell didn’t found the coC as he actually sought unity among all groups at that time whether they were Baptist, Mennonite, etc. It was only those who followed some of his thoughts that idenitfied themselves as coC and doG. Even after his baptism for salvation he still alligned himself with the Baptist groups. They actually broke from him and his teachings. Alexander believed salvation wasn’t found in a group, but in Christ.
When was Alexander Campbell baptized to be saved? When he was baptized, which was the only time he was baptized, he didn’t regard baptism as salvation.
And to this, “In reality it doesn’t matter if Alexander was saved when he “restored” the church to the true gospel”, is what some in the CofC denomination try as they will.
How does it not matter if the person so commended to have restored the church was saved or not? Are you saying it could be that a child of the devil restored the church?
So, again, Was Alexander Campbell saved when he “restored” the church to the gospel?
Do you baptize children of the devil?
Grace, you missed the point of the article. John Smyth, the founder of the Baptist faith, was baptized 3 times. Why? Obviously he felt burdened that he had a scriptural baptism. If it doesn’t matter one bit, then why all the fuss from a guy that believed in faith only? These guys as I tried to say were learning on the fly. They didn’t have things all figured out. As far as Campbell goes God knows when he was saved. But make no mistake, he “believed and was baptized.” Something you would not teach a person they had to do. I’m not sure why not. Whether he understood it right or not makes no difference to me and I’m sure most who comment on here. Campbell didn’t start the CofC denomination. For a good read consider this article even though I do not adhere to brother Jackson’s view of some things. https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/822-alexander-campbell-and-christs-church
Grace,
You made a very informed observation. “Do you baptize children of the devil?” It agrees perfectly with the apostle Paul, in his description concerning the action of baptism in Romans 6. By the way, no scripture identified the act of baptism as a symbol of an action already completed. The proof is in Paul’s own writings. (Rom 6:1 YLT) What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound? 2 let it not be! we who died to the sin–how shall we still live in it?
3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
Paul, explains in detail that, “(Rom 6:5 YLT) For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; 6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;” this action is in present tense. Being planted into death, rising again and crucifying the old body, making the body of sin useless, while buried with Christ.
If you baptize only Christians, you are not changing lives. Christians are already alive (born again) members of the body of Christ, they have no need for any of the actions Paul describes as being present as baptism is in progress. But, children of the devil, they desperately need the actions described.
I know that many attempt to say there is no power involved in baptism, but I’ll just ask, “Why did Christ demand that his followers do it to believers if it has no power.” Why did Christ give Paul the description that it was being done to those who were confessing him as their Lord, if it was only an example. If it is only an example to others, why would Christians not want to do the act each time they get together, especially at a function where there are many who do not believe in Christ? Like this is our testimony to all of the world. Do you notice that almost all baptisms conducted by any church group are conducted without great advertisement to the lost of the community, those that you describe as children of the devil? If we really believed that baptism was the symbol to be displayed to the lost of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, then not advertising it would compare to hiding the (Gospel) light under a bushel, remember the story, “This little light of mine”? If it was to be the evidence to the world of Christ, then Christians should be gathering regularly in large numbers for mass baptizing, maybe in place of Gospel Meetings being just sermons. Are Christians failing their responsibility by not performing the act with massive audiences of the lost?
Alexander Campbell rejected missionary societies, instrumental music in worship, the use of written confessions, regular salaries for ministers, and many other practices. Campbell’s maxim was “Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent.”
Alexander Campbell in his opposition to missions insisted that Christians had no right to make any efforts to spread the knowledge of the gospel in any other than a church capacity, he said of the primitive disciples, “In their church capacity alone they moved.”
A minister wrote to Alexander Campbell about his opposition to the Missionary and Bible Society cause telling him, “Never attack the principle which multiplies the number of Bibles, or which promotes the preaching of the gospel, or the support of it, if you desire Christianity to prevail.”
Alexander Campbell being tied with some from the Baptist church was making them appear to be opposed to theological education and the support of their ministers, as well as support of missions and the circulating of Bibles.
Alexander Campbell said, “I take the Bible for my sole guide. I cannot possible be wrong in any particular. None but myself (and my disciples) take the Bible as their guide. Wherever they differ from me, they differ from the Bible.” He did not allow it to appear possible for him to misunderstand the Bible. Every objection made about his teachings was promptly assumed to be an objection made to the Bible.
As Campbellism was spreading among people, people began to ridicule ministers. Christians could not get away from the tumults except in their homes that were also frequented by advocates of Campbell who felt it was their duty to lead them from darkness to light.
Alexander Campbell wasn’t baptized to be saved and he was ministering before he was baptized. He never once denied his claim that he had been a Christian before he went to a Baptist preacher to be baptized.
Many in the CofC denomination are huge advocates of Alexander Campbell commending him to have “restored” the church. It is not something the CofC denomination can all of a sudden deny in conversations they don’t like.
So, again, Was Alexander Campbell saved when he “restored” the church to the gospel?
And my other question, Do you baptize children of the devil?
Grace, You obviously posted your entry before Larry completed his and they crossed in the air. Larry explains very well that it is the lost that need baptism and not saved as they would have already been baptized. Jesus said he came to seek and save to lost, not to save those that weren’t lost.
True, Alexander Campbell rejected many things, but this was as a matter of his principle and not by his reckoning a matter of command. He rejected things that were placed on others as a command that was just a matter of opinion.
Again many in the coC do not accept Alexander as the Father of the coC and many have not even read what Alexander wrote or said and surely do not understand his meaning of “speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent” as they have misinterpreted this to mean that if it is not there in scripture it is not scriptural, but this is not what Alexander meant as he believed that if there was silence, then no command either way could be made on it.
Let me point this out, Christianity is based on Christ and not on Alexander Campbell, not on Martin Luther, not on John Calvin, not on any one who has had influence that still exist.
Alexander wrote, “Let THE BIBLE be substituted for all human creeds; FACTS, for definitions, THINGS, for words; FAITH, for speculation; UNITY OF FAITH, for unity of opinion; THE POSITIVE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, for human legislation and tradition; PIETY, for ceremony; MORALITY, for partisan zeal; THE PRACTICE OF RELIGION, for the mere profession of it;–and the work is done.” He wrote the above in a Baptist article.
The quote you gave was in relation to the concept that he beleived that he followed the Bible and would not associate with those who pronounced human creeds as law or command. He taught baptism after he realized that it was scripturally relevant and then bowed to that relevance, even while teaching God’s word. The apostles taught god’s word even while not realizing what much of it meant and it didn’t make the word irrelevant.
How did Alexander Campbell restore the true gospel, as the CofC has commended him, when baptism is not the gospel?
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to proclaim the gospel, not with clever speech, lest the cross of Christ be emptied. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
And you still haven’t answered my question, Was Alexander Campbell saved when he “restored” the church to the gospel?
Cornelius had the Holy Spirit before he was baptized, he certainly wasn’t a child of the devil when he was baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Do you say Cornelius, his family and friends were still children of the devil when they were given the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?
Even during the 1830’s Alexander Campbell was known to continue to call the penitent to come forward for prayer. He still didn’t regard believers who had not been baptized as unsaved.
This is what Alexander Campbell ultimately taught after he “restored” the church to the true gospel.
“I cannot, therefore, make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their own knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven. ‘Salvation was of the Jews,’ acknowledged the Messiah; and yet he said of a foreigner, an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, a Syro-Phenician, ‘I have not found so great faith — no, not in Israel.”
“The preachers of ‘essentials,’ as well as the preachers of ‘non-essentials,’ frequently err. The Essentialist may disparage the heart, while the Non-essentialist despises the institution. The latter makes void the institutions of Heaven, while the former appreciates not the mental bias on which God looketh most.”
“There is no occasion, then, for making immersion, on a profession of the faith, absolutely essential to a Christian — though it may be greatly essential to his sanctification and comfort. My right hand and my right eye are greatly essential to my usefulness and happiness, but not to my life; and as I could not be a perfect man without them, so I cannot be a perfect Christian without a right understanding and a cordial reception of immersion in its true and scriptural meaning and design. But he that thence infers that none are Christians but the immersed, as greatly errs as he who affirms that none are alive but those of clear and full vision.”
So, you say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Eph talks about those who formerly walked accpording to the prince and power of the air, but now were saved under Christ. Cornelius might have been Godly, but they weren’t under Christ and weren’t saved until baptized into Christ. If A. Campbell wasn’t baptized into Christ, then no he wasn’t saved, no matter how much he preached Christ, but his salvation has nothing to do with the gospel as that he didn’t write it.
You keep referring to a restoration of the “true gospel” but the truth is in the gospel, which is scripture and it was there before, during and after Alexander Campbell was alive. The church was never restored to the true gospel by any restorationist as the church is made up on saints added by God. the church or congregation exist and has existed in Christ.
Grace, here is what Campbell wrote latter in the Luxenber letter to clarify the earlier statement
“We shall now attempt to defend this opinion from the sectarian application of it . . . . It affords them too much joy for the consolation it brings, because it imparts no certainty of pardon or salvation to any particular unbaptized person whatsoever. . . . In no case, indeed, can there be the same certainty (all things else being equal) that he who was sprinkled, poured, or immersed on some other person’s faith, or that he who was sprinkled or poured on his own faith, shall be saved, as there is that he that first believes and is then, on his own confession, immersed, shall be saved. In the former case, at best, we have only the fallible inference or opinion of man; while in the latter we have the sure and unerring promise of our Saviour and Judge. . . . (“any” 563). Now, in our judgment, there is not on earth a person who can have as full an assurance of justification or of remission of sins, as the person who has believed, confessed his faith, and been intelligently buried and raised with the Lord. (564)”
Alexander Campbell sure seems to be a confused fella, I don’t think he really knew what he believed. And I don’t think I’d want to claim him as the restorer of the church I attend either.
Yet, many in the CofC denomination are huge advocates of Alexander Campbell commending him to have “restored” the true gospel. So, How did Alexander Campbell restore the true gospel, as the CofC has commended him, when baptism is not the gospel?
And to this, “Cornelius might have been Godly, but they weren’t under Christ and weren’t saved until baptized into Christ.”
Let’s see if Paul and Peter say they weren’t saved before being baptized.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Paul disagrees with you. He says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 “But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.”
Peter disagrees with you. He says the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace,
You ask others to validate statements that you create which have never been stated in scripture with the context implied which you are using them. In the following statement, you are projecting that baptism is a ritual and you are using your reasoning and logic in an attempt to display thoughts that you believe should be God’s.. Disregarding messages in scripture that address his Word on the subject.
“Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.”
Will you be kind enough to show us scriptures that identify which acts or works that men must do to receive salvation that the scriptures relate to as rituals?
I really would direct you to almost all of the OT scriptures to answer your first “why” above. God required much of all in the OT in exchange for his blessings and those who would not adhere to his commands reaped the consequences. If you do believe that he has changed then you would be implying that he would be unfair and unjust to condemn unbelievers today. You imply that all that believe or have faith in Jesus is saved immediately, yet the scriptures give account of believers that even knew Jesus who were not saved.
(Acts 24:25 KJV) And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
(John 12:42 KJV) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
In the following passages these “knew” him, but notice their destiny.
(Mark 1:34 NIV) and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
(Luke 4:41 NIV) Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.
(James 2:19 NIV) You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
(James 2:20 NIV) You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
Let’s examine this Acts 15:11 that you quote in support of being saved by faith.
Acts 15:11 “But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.”
The “us” is Jews and the Gentiles are well Gentiles. This is in answer to their concept that the Jews are left out because it is documented that Gentiles are now being saved. Evidently, some Jews thought God was abandoning the Jews in favor of the Gentiles. That concept even crepes in today calling the church “The Gentile Church”, implying that Jews are left out of God’s assemblies at the present time, some require that to be able to bring them back into the Gods plan for the future..
You are applying a view that is not present in scripture.
Oh and while you are at that I would like to remind you that you have been asked many times to identify the translations that you are quoting, and I will suggest that when you are attempting to relay to us what someone else has stated, that you will document the sources location or documents which your quotes are found. ie: Alexander Campbell and where you have found that the coC honors Alexander as the restorer, above many others that have been prominent leaders in the restoration movement.
You are fully aware that a piece of paper or a computer will allow anyone to write whatever they wish, truth or not.
Grace, I am a huge advocate of Alexander Campbell, but he isn’t my theological leader. He pushed back against the thought that we can make rules where none existed in scripture and attempted to unify many religious groups.
He had many things right and some things wrong, which kind of sounds like…well, us. To peg him as an influence within a movement is all right, but to peg him as the founder of it is not as there were others at the time…Stone for one. None of them were perfect, even though headed in the right direction, which sounds a lot like…well, us.
To give a quote dictates that we should be able to relay the source and where it is and not just put it out there. There have been many quotes given, but many are doubtful unless you can verfy them yourself. This is only reaonable. We shouldn’t ask someone to do what we should have done ourselves.
“I cannot, therefore, make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their own knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven. ‘Salvation was of the Jews,’ acknowledged the Messiah; and yet he said of a foreigner, an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, a Syro-Phenician, ‘I have not found so great faith — no, not in Israel.”
“The preachers of ‘essentials,’ as well as the preachers of ‘non-essentials,’ frequently err. The Essentialist may disparage the heart, while the Non-essentialist despises the institution. The latter makes void the institutions of Heaven, while the former appreciates not the mental bias on which God looketh most.”
“There is no occasion, then, for making immersion, on a profession of the faith, absolutely essential to a Christian — though it may be greatly essential to his sanctification and comfort. My right hand and my right eye are greatly essential to my usefulness and happiness, but not to my life; and as I could not be a perfect man without them, so I cannot be a perfect Christian without a right understanding and a cordial reception of immersion in its true and scriptural meaning and design. But he that thence infers that none are Christians but the immersed, as greatly errs as he who affirms that none are alive but those of clear and full vision.”
The Millenial Harbinger, New Series, Number IX, Vol. I, Sept. 1837, Pg. 411 ff.
I don’t believe anyone here lives in a remote village with no internet access and no books stores. You have the internet obviously since you are on here, so you have the resources needed to look up anything. And I’m sure you have plenty of books about Alexander Campbell, there are many in the CofC denomination with reading materials about Alexander Campbell, most about the things they only want people to know about him, and anyone can order many other books about Alexander Campbell or go by a book store to get them. And the video I posted above gives references to books about Alexander Campbell.
Any other time I’ve been in conversations with others about people in history no one gets all bent out of shape about it because we know anyone can look up and find plenty of information about anyone, especially nowadays.
As I’ve said, I’m not here to bow to your commands. I simply don’t have the time to worry about every time people want to go on ranting sprees. I’m at many different places throughout the day doing many different things and what chance I get I comment on here. So, again, If you don’t like how someone comments, then simply do as I have, quit having a discussion with them.
This is from the website called Baptist Distinctives by Warren McWilliams. Anyone with a computer can find. Right Grace?
“Generally speaking, if such a person has not been baptized by immersion as a believer in Christ, a Baptist church will require that he or she indicate faith in Christ and be baptized before becoming a member. If the person has been immersed as a believer, but that baptism was considered necessary for salvation, most Baptist churches will require the person to be baptized before becoming a member; this is done in order to make clear that baptism, while important, is not necessary for salvation.
If the person has been immersed as a believer and understands that it was a way to testify symbolically that he or she had been born again, some Baptist churches will accept such a person into membership. Other Baptist churches will ask the person to be baptized in a Baptist church.”
Grace, the Baptist(or at least some) as in “some” CofC will say that your baptism wasn’t valid if done for the wrong reason(s). One (Baptist congregation)may accept your baptism if “they” deem it accurate or they may just want you to have a “Baptist” baptism. Strange isn’t it? Both the CofC and Baptist churches examining(questioning why you were)baptized. But where it gets really even stranger IMHO is that the Baptist don’t even believe it’s necessary. I mean it’s easier to rationalize the angst over a person’s baptism if you consider it part of faith in becoming a Christian. But all the whoop jumping to become a Baptist? About something that according to them is just an expression of something that took place in the past? Interesting indeed.
Some Baptists churches do, I don’t disagree saying some don’t. The majority of Baptists I know and many people I know who are friends with Baptists and many other Baptist churches don’t.
It’s actually strange how many CofC denominations continue to want to have some kind of war thing going on between them and other church denominations especially with Baptist churches.
And that’s not nearly as strange as Alexander Campbell, as we see from his own writings, and the many very strange beliefs held by the CofC denomination throughout the years.
It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.
A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized just in case. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally for the remission of sins, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (ones previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).
Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).
The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lords Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.
The Lords Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lords Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.
Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lords Supper.
The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.
No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leaders may be amplified by artificial means.
Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.
If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God. It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.
There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.
During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud amen or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as Praise the Lord would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.
The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).
Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).
The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a mens business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (ministry leader, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.
There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.
A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a missionary society.
Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a Scriptural divorce (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in unscriptural marriages are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.
All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.
The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as preaching the truth. As noted above, people who do not understand these rules (and thus fail to follow them perfectly) shall be deemed as not truly loving God nor the truth.
These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.
Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.
And the lists just go on:
Observing Christmas or other holidays
Fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
One cup vs. multiple cups
No kitchen or eating in the building
Cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
No separated classes
Bible versions
Taking of oaths
Serving in the military
Inflicting capital punishment
Using force to defend oneself or others
Serving as a government official
Lifting hands while singing
Joining a ministerial alliance
How God answers prayer
Fasting
Singing as the emblems are passed
Use of church buildings for secular activities
Building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
Use of an instrument in “church” weddings
Youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
The operation of Christian hospitals
The baptismal “formula”
Dedicating babies
Signing contribution pledge cards
Women wearing shorts and slacks
Women working outside the home
Children’s Bible Hour
Bussing children to services
Degrees of reward and punishment
Dress code for men serving the Lord’s Supper
Grace,
As long as you attempt to teach publicly that baptism is a ritual and refuse to back that up with God’s Word, then you can expect me and many others to publicly refute that with scriptures which you will not admit are discussing the subject. You can also expect that we may find the sources of your quotes, and display messages form the same author at different periods of there spiritual growth that will refute their own previous testimony. This is not a rant or an attack upon you, it is a promise.
I have never attempted to attack you personally (speaking of intelligence, or lack of abilities or time to answer legitimate questions). I asked you to if you had the integrity to communicate with us identifying the sources of your quotes, and you take offence at that. Do you really understand what impression that creates? We’ll to me it says that you would rather take credit for a message that you deliver suggesting that it is from God’s Word, but refuse to identify where in God’s Word it is located. This action is not using God as the authority, it is placing yourself as an authority between the message and God’s Word.
I will borrow a phrase from the movie, “God is not Dead”, after a very heated discussion between the student and the instructor, the student asked the instructor why he hated God, the instructor responded with a story about as a child 14 years old he prayed to God to not let his mother die. Well, she died and he has held that against God ever since. The student then asked him how he could hate a God whom he had declared as dead or did not exist.
I have relayed this message to you so I could ask you why you hate the coC so venomously? Oh, it is very obvious. When in all reality you cannot belong to any other (church) organization which does not contain some of the same discrepancies from the church found in scriptures that you are identifying as only in the coC.
Your teaching is not at all similar to Jay’s, Jay is portraying subjects as he sees them in scripture, without condemning any body of believers, (let the truth fall where it may or let the seed sprout in good ground). Your teaching activities almost duplicates the previous generations of coC, In fact I’ll explain my observation further in that your claims indicate that you cannot extend grace to someone who holds to a different view of some of the scriptures than you do. Were you trained in the coC and learned that views taught there were not as correct as they thought, therefore you removed yourself from them to become just like them in a different organization?
Grace, Jesus was a man. Is this a mark against him to where you cannot believe Him as being the son of God? The reason I ask this is that just because things are ritualistic, that in itself doesn’t mean that they aren’t important and needed and a part of salvation. If you cannot reconcile baptism and the Lord’s Supper because they are a work, then how can you reconcile Jesus who was in the flesh and a man or faith that is also called a work. When Jesus the Son of God in the flesh said, “Believe and be baptized will be saved.” then we must either accept him and his words or not accept him and his words.
In regards to coC beliefs, you are ignoring the fact that many other groups have the same belief in regards to baptism, even some baptist and many non-denominational groups. So this belief is a coC belief it is also a belief of others as well.
In regards to Alexander Campbell, “Because of their background as Presbyterians, the Campbells and Stone taught that infants were proper subjects of baptism and that sprinkling was authorized as an appropriate action of baptism. After the birth of Alexander Campbell’s first child, Jane, on March 13, 1812, he undertook a comprehensive study of baptism. He reached the conclusion that he had not been baptized according to the scriptures.Accordingly, on June 12, 1812, Alexander Campbell, along with his wife, father, mother, and others, was immersed by Matthias Luce, a Baptist minister, not according to Baptist usage, but upon a simple confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah. This immersion took place in a deep pond in Buffalo Creek near the home of David Bryant.” Baptism And The Restoration, Alan E. Highers
In the A. Campbell-J. Thomas debate, “Campbell blasted Thomas’ argument as being too extreme. He argued that Thomas counted understanding the immersion at the time of its occurrence as a requirement to enter the pearly gates. Campbell set forth three criteria for Christians to complete in order to get into heaven when a person dies. First, a Christian must believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Second, one must be baptized. Third, one must fully understand why he was immersed. Campbell argued that all three of these must be complete by the time a person dies.”
While there are some in the coC that take a stricter view baptism, most would undeniably argue that A. Campbell was baptized into Christ and was saved by what he himself understood about his own baptism, namely that baptism is essential for salvation. This only applies to him and does not argue for any movement that he might have led or been a part of or that he might have influenced.
Grace,
When you make a statement such as this, I see the need to ask you how you interpret, The Apostle Perter’s message following.
“I don’t believe being baptized saves people just as eating and drinking the Lord’s Supper doesn’t save people.”
(1Pe 3:20 YLT) who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah–an ark being preparing–in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; 21 also to which an antitype doth now save us–baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,
Were the translators who translated so literally the Young’s Literal Translation which you claimed to be so accurate really in error? Haven’t you denied what they say?
I tested several other translations and never found one that portrays the concept that you teach. Here are three more, and I am going to assume that you also have abilities to test the translations, therefore out of all of the translations available to me I guess I have failed to validate your claim, could you be so kind to produce that source that we may compare it to the many?
(1Pe 3:20 CEV) They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood. 21 Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
(1Pe 3:20 DRB) Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. 21 Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(1Pe 3:20 ESV) because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
P.S. We must assume if you cannot produce documentation that proves the translations are in error, or that Peter really told us an untruth, that the evidence would be in favor of Peter and the translators testimony in opposition to your statement.
So you have been outside the CofC denomination observing and you don’t see any other denominations that have similar problems?. I’ll offer a little incite of my own, I was baptized into Christ over 56 years ago The Lord added me to the church which is identified as his body, his sheepfold, the called out, the ekklesia, and I still attend several CoC, but I never and I am not aware of anyone else who joined the CoC by being baptized into the church. Contrary to public opinion baptism is not a church ordinance or ritual. The church has never been directed to administer a process for entry into it, all that have instituted such have created them by mans initiative. You know what that means, man’s rules. I have seen many modifications to the understandings of the scriptures within the CoC in those years. But, this concept that you have that Alexander Campbell restored the church, was never taught or discussed in my lifetime, there were several men from different parts of the world who began teaching similar concepts that they had learned in the scriptures, as their sermons became known listeners who had assembled at different locations found others in different parts of the world who had arrived at same conclusions of the scriptures and they were in acceptance of each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. The name they began using is just one of several mentioned in scriptures to identify followers of Christ. There is no single or even group of men that we identify as founders of this movement, if I were asked how this came about, I would have to state that men are not responsible, our Savior conducted this movement. To add to this I would have to say that I do not believe that this was the only movement that he has been involved in, but I would also believe that he has not been active in creating movements or denominations that have attached names of men or names of actions that men do. I do not believe that Christ identifies them His Church, yet some men who are attending some of those churches have been added by The Lord to His Church. This does not guarantee that the church or group they are meeting with is the Lord’s Church. The Lord is a Spirit and his newborn children are also Spirits.
(John 4:24 KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:16 KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Cor 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Cor 3:16 KJV) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(1 Cor 6:20 KJV) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
I also find it necessary to make a statement about your question about, Alexander Campbell. The answer that you are seeking is of no value to anyone except Alexander himself. There are no rules or regulations that could be derived from that question which will alter any teaching today or tomorrow. Do you really believe that a follower of Christ should align himself with any man’s teaching’s or life examples even if they are identical to Bible teaching, when you identify man as the source you have removed God from authority.
I accept that people who believe and are baptized are saved. It doesn’t say those who are not baptized will be condemned it says those who do not believe will be condemned, Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Do you believe and teach the rest of what Mark says? Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Alexander Campbell was baptized by a Baptist preacher, and was the only time he was baptized, and by his own request was baptized only upon his confession that Jesus is the Son of God, he didn’t regard baptism as salvation until a few years later.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace,
I feel honored to constantly reaffirm the same answers (I have fully defined my answers before and you totally ignore the answers, but your persistence actually offers more opportunities for others to see and learn) for your questions in which are attempting to alter the messages in God’s Word.
The attempt to determine Alexander Campbell’s position with the Lord will alter nothing for anyone today, men today must obey God’s instructions.
Why would you ask of my beliefs about baptism after you already committed to believing that baptism is unnecessary? Are you attempting to identify me as being lost because I have faith and was baptized? According to your testimony you believe that faith would save me without baptism. You have also explained that you were baptized and have baptized others, are you now believing that an individual who has faith is saved, but if they are baptized then are again lost, unforgiven and condemned?.
I will affirm again my belief that you will not find anyone in the scriptures who was saved after Peters sermon without baptism being administered to them, and the baptism was not administered by a church, it was performed by a man. Neither was any man or body of men (church) consulted as to their approval that the individual was a candidate for baptism.
As referring to weather I agree with your question about whom I believed is baptized correctly. I must explain that in the statement I gave you about my baptism did not identify any church beliefs that I adhered to, in other words I was not using any organizations rule book to guide the action performed during baptism.
The teaching of the Christ and His Apostles was the example which was followed and I would be denying my own baptism if I was to deny any other person received the same benefits that I did if he was baptized in the same manner.
You said, “I accept that people who believe and are baptized are saved.” This is great you have read and understood that completion of both actions produces a safety shield from condemnation. Then you attempt to die sect that sentence into two parts and produce the same end result with half of the Lord’s instruction.
The logic that you are applying here does not work an any similarly constructed sentence in the English language. “It doesn’t say those who are not baptized will be condemned it says those who do not believe will be condemned, Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Would you baptize anyone who does not believe? You certainly would not state that if someone was baptized without believing would be saved. You could state that if someone was baptized without believing they would be condemned, and that would be correct. The key to understanding God’s message here is to read this in its context and follow it without altering the content. If that is done the first sentence is a completed project, the second sentence shows the consequences of not completing the first instruction.
Now, rereading the second sentence it says, “but he who does not believe will be condemned” there is no need to mention baptism because the unbeliever would not complete the actions demanded in the sentence, therefore, the non-believer will be condemned because he does neither of the items, believe or baptism. The lack of baptism does not allow the believer to continue to the conclusion of the sentence. If no continuance then no salvation. The sentence structure requires both actions to arrive at the result.
You asked, “Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
There are some in all asemblies that do not have the proper concepts of God, so to pick on the coC is a little unfair in this regards. Yes, there are some, but not all who think that you must be baptised into the coC, but this is primarily true of the Catholic church overall. What you don’t understand and accept is that beyond some who don’t think baptism is essential, that there are many who do think it is essential and they are not of the coC, there are even many baptist that think this. This doctrine isn’t a coC doctrine, it is in the scripture.
Apollos and others were rebaptized, why? Because they were baptized for repentance, but not for salvation. I didn’t make this up.
I posted my comment after you finally answered that you do believe and teach that these things still happen among Christians?
Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Still waiting though:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace you are making an assertion that you cannot prove and actually goes against what Jesus himself told the apostles.
Your statement, “Cornelius had the Holy Spirit before he was baptized, he wasn’t a child of the devil when he was baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11” doesn’t argue that he was saved before he was baptized and to argue that he was a child of the devil is a bit of an overstatement. If he was a child of God, then he was a child of God even before the Holy Spirit came down on him as he had faith in God before that point. But did he have faith that Jesus was the Son of God, which is what Christianity is based on? And even then they were commanded to be baptized.
If we are to believe what Jesus said and what we don’t read of the Cornelius case, then Cornelius wasn’t saved until they had faith and were baptized. The Holy Spirit encounter was a way of God telling Peter that they too could recieve the message of Christ. Peter had barely uttered a word before the sign of tongues came upon them, so they had not been taught Christ yet.
You ask, “Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.”
At Jesus death, Christ said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Right. So this means that all were forgiven at that time, all those Gentiles and Jews that were putting Jesus to death. They didn’t have to believe in Jesus as He had just for gave them and they were saved. They didn’t even need fatih right?
Jesus did forgive people, but after Jesus left came back gave to the aposltes the mothod for salvation and then left again, Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. Jesus gave the message and expected a response-faith and baptism. If Jesus believed in baptism and he was baptized himself, then it wasn’t just a ritual. The apostles baptized because Jesus told them to.
Jesus did ask God to forgive them for crucifying Him when He had done nothing wrong. That sin was forgiven them, but they could not have salvation if they didn’t believe in who He is.
And again, a group of friends are talking and someone tells them, those who are at Joe’s house and eats supper tonight are going to have a great time, but those who aren’t there will miss having a great time with us.
People eating supper at Joe’s had a great time there, people there did eat supper. People who are at Joe’s house certainly can have a great time without eating supper, they didn’t have to eat supper to have a great time there. They didn’t say people who didn’t eat would miss out on a great time, it’s those who aren’t there who would miss out.
Those at Joe’s had a great time. Those who aren’t at Joe’s couldn’t have a great time there, it wasn’t from not eating supper they didn’t have a great time, it was from not being at Joe’s they didn’t have a great time there.
Dwight said, “Peter had barely uttered a word before the sign of tongues came upon them, so they had not been taught Christ yet.”
So according to Dwight, God would stop the gospel from being preached to give people the Holy Spirit so that Peter and the few he brought with him would baptize them.
People from the CofC denomination sure don’t like that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles before they were baptized, it’s not their theology, their theology is that you have to be baptized before you receive the Holy Spirit. And so they try so hard arguing to change it to the Gentiles didn’t hear the gospel and received the Holy Spirit, rather than what Luke said that all who HEARD the word received the Holy Spirit.
Dwight has Peter baptizing unbelievers.
Luke wrote that Peter came to speak with the Gentiles, and Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. The gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard as Luke recorded in Acts 10:44, that “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 “But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.”
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Dwight said, “Jesus was no longer able to forgive people.”
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate that His saving grace and forgiveness is to all who believe in Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace. my argument was that i you beleive the HS to have saved them, then they were saved without even hearing the words about Jesus. The text says that Peter spoke to them after the HS sign and then they were baptized. So they heard about Jesus and was baptized. The scripture has them having the HS even before Peter told them about Jesus. We have to get the order right. Peter was unsure of whether they could even be preached to and the HS ign proved they could, not that they were saved. Otherise they were saved without Peter speaking to them as well.
Jesus rose from the dead -and then went to heaven, you missed that last part. Jesus forgave those whom he personally forgave. If Jesus is all about forgiveness, then even those who do not come to Christ are forgiven and even the vilest sinner who has never known God. But there are requirements for forgiveness. Jesus even said if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Grace, I don’t think you are evil or anything, but have taken a line of thought that leaves out other lines of thoughts. The particular line of thought, that is fairly common by the way, is that works and rituals are meaningless and are not registered by God. Most of this is due to reading Hebrews, II Timothy and Titus out of context in that when Paul talks about works not being able to save Paul is talking about works of the Law and works by themselves in the abscence of faith.
Such is why James comes back so strongly to tie faith and works together in that they compliment each other and make each other alive.
Works and rituals are indeed meaningless without faith, but they are powerful with faith.
If works don’t do anything, then when Jesus said “I come to do the work of my Father”, then that really wasn’t worth doing as His being here was enough.
Jesus immediately after He was baptized had some impressive things happen to Him, the heavens opened up, the Holy spirit came down as a dove and God said, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” All this for doing a simple ritual that means nothing to God. And this was at the beginning of his “work”. This wasn’t just a dip in the water, this was baptism.
In the realm of rites and rituals, sacrifice was a big one, and God even down played the sacrifices of the Jews as they were doing them just to do them thinking that they alone would bering them closer to God.
But if sacrifice is a ritual and because it is a ritual then meaningless, then Jesus who was the biggest sacrifice was meaningless because he was directly involved in the ritual and was the main part of it. We ourselves are supposed to be a “living sacrifice”, which requires activity.
You really don’t find God against rituals and work, but rather God is against rituals and works that don’t have faith and belief behind them, after all Jesus performed many of the rituals and works.
Dwight said, “The text says that Peter spoke to them after the HS sign and then they were baptized.”Peter didn’t speak to them about the gospel after the Holy Spirit was given to them, he had already spoke the gospel to them before they received the Holy Spirit as Luke recorded.
Dwight said, “The scripture has them having the HS even before Peter told them about Jesus.”
That’s not true, according Luke they “heard” the gospel before they were given the Holy Spirit. Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit, Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
You’re not telling it how Luke did, you want to change it since what Luke says doesn’t fit your theology.
Dwight said, “Jesus forgave those whom he personally forgave.”
I never said He didn’t, Jesus did ask God to forgive them for crucifying Him when He had done nothing wrong. That sin was forgiven them, but they could not have salvation if they didn’t believe in who He is.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
The standard we have to meet is perfection.
And it’s almost laughable how hard you try to change what Luke recorded if wasn’t really so sad. That you even to go as far to say that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people and that God would stop the gospel from being preached to give people the Holy Spirit so Peter would baptize them without them ever hearing the gospel.
I suppose I should be grateful to you that you don’t think I’m evil or anything. But what you think of me doesn’t bother me. God is who truly knows my heart and I live for my Lord who gave His life for me, the things I do are to Him and they are always meaningful.
Oh, and still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
I think it was FF Bruce that wrote that “baptism isn’t an optional extra.” None the less, I suppose there are some with a genuine saving faith that are un taught, poorly taught or something and they are confused about the issue. That is, if they think about it at all. Pilgrim’s Progress had a man named Little Faith and they are still with us today. Frequently I question myself as to whether I am a prime example. All of us were utterly, helplessly, hopelessly lost and Jesus saved us. period, End of story. I was baptised when I was 12 or 13 and I’m glad I was. However, there is no reason to go to war or carry on forever over a formula for salvation, at least not as it is generally waged on this issue.
Hesed,
Randall
• Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There was nobody here who would say they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “understanding ” of baptism, are saved. All that was said was that there are people in the CofC denomination and other churches who do. That’s why I reposted it.
• Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. That’s why I reposted it.
• You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given were Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, none of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil. That’s why I reposted it.
• How do you explain grace to someone?
There was nobody here who would say how they explain grace to someone. That’s why I reposted it.
You accuse me of using Scripture out of context. I went by Luke’s record that Cornelius and his family and friends received the Holy Spirit after they heard the gospel of Christ preached. And the reply to this was that they didn’t hear the gospel, while the Scriptures say, all those who HEARD the word received the Holy Spirit. So who is really trying to take it out of context and change it?
According to Luke they “heard” the gospel before they were given the Holy Spirit. Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit, Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
And I agree with Randall that there’s been enough wars between churches for too many years already. I’ll be praying that Christians learn to sacrifice our human pride and display an attitude of humility that helps to bring unity. If churches stopped bickering it would mightily bring others to know Him and would be a tremendous assault on the enemy.
If your teaching of the good news about Jesus to the lost doesn’t leave them desiring baptism, then something is amiss. Perhaps you taught the right gospel, but the wrong response to that gospel.
“See here is water, what can stand in the way of my being baptized?” “And they that gladly received the word were baptized.” “Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sin!” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” “And then immediately he and all his household were baptized.” “On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited Paul into her home.
We can see that baptism was ordered, it was commanded, it immediately followed the receiving of the gospel so much so that it could be spoken of as a nearly simultaneous event. They that gladly received the word were baptized, meaning as they were preached to and as they believed, they responded to the message by baptism, to the extent that there wasn’t anyone who believed who was not baptized. The church was comprised of all who were baptized. “Or don’t you know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into his death”, “for all of you who have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ.” This is inclusive-exclusive language meaning that he’s addressing the saints as the ones baptized, as the “clothed ones” and “risen ones.” Some would argue that you are clothed with Jesus and risen with Jesus without baptism. Paul knows nothing of saved believers who are waiting on baptism next week, or next quarter, or whenever the Spirit moves them to be baptized. All the redeemed were baptized believers, not a mixture of believers who haven’t yet and those who already had. But that’s what you wind up with when the response to the gospel is taught inaccurately.
I know of a Baptist preacher in my hometown who baptizes believers immediately upon their confession of faith, whether it be at night or whenever. That sounds almost Biblical. Right? He wouldn’t say it was necessary, but by his actions, he understands that it is the manner in which new believers were instructed, Biblically speaking. “Who is he, to do it differently”, is his reasoning if my memory serves me correctly.
We can argue over much, but not that baptism was the manner that alien sinners, now believing and repentant of sin acknowledged their need for the spiritual cleansing Jesus provides. Not because they believed they already possessed it. But because they were desirous of it. The crying out to God(calling on HIs name), the asking for a clean conscience(forgiveness).
Grace, my point is that nowhere in the text does Peter speak of Jesus gospel message to Cornelius, but he recounts what had happened with the apostles up to that point. It is more likely that they had heard of Jesus prior to this, but the text doesn’t say so and yet there they were. But they did believe. And nowhere does it say that they were saved by the Holy Spirit falling on them or that this was an inidaction that they were saved. You want to focus on an event of the Holy Spirit falling on them that only indicated to Peter that they too could recieve the message because they were worthy of salvation. There is a reason Peter prompted them to be baptized, because Jesus told him to for salvation.
In regards to “coC understanding”, I have tried to point out that this is not only a “coC understanding”, it is simply that you and many other do not understand it this way, but many others do that extend beyond the coC. According to the incident of Apollos there had to be an understanding of salvation in the baptism, which is why Apollos was rebaptized.
Monty, that is dead on. It doesn’t get any more complicated than that. You believe that Jesus is the Son of God and is our redeemer and we respond from our hearts in baptism to be saved. It is the answer of a good conscience towards God.
Grace, is favor or that which is allowed by another because of love and mercy is that which is freely offered to us despite our not desrving it. The grace and mercy is fulfilled in Jesus coming to us the lost to give us a way out of our sinful state. The grace and mercy culminates in Jesus dying for us as a sacrifice for our sins, but this doens’t unilaterally wipe the sins from the earth. Jesus said “many are called, but few are chosen” to indicate that God requires followers and that not all will follow. We are supposed to do the will of the Father just as Jesus did and this requires of us faith and works in response. Faith and works do not save us, but the abscence of and the wrongul application of can damn us.
The message Peter spoke to them was all about Christ dying on the cross and being raised from the dead. Their whole testimony was about Christ. That anyone would distort that to say he didn’t preach the gospel are going to some outrageous extremes. You have Peter baptizing unbelievers. That you say things as the gospel wasn’t preached, and that Jesus was no longer able to forgive sins, are pretty concerning to say the least.
According to Luke they “heard” the gospel before they were given the Holy Spirit. Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit, Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Being baptized is certainly one of the important things a Christian should be encouraged to do. I believe baptism is after salvation, it serves as a public declaration that the old self has died and is becoming new in the likeness of Christ. When I was baptized I identified with Christ who gave His life to save me. Being baptized is a physical demonstration that points to Christ. The symbolism of baptism is beautiful just as when we eat and drink the Lord’s Supper, John 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” I don’t believe being baptized saves people just as eating and drinking the Lord’s Supper doesn’t save people.
I don’t believe a person has to go to someone other than Jesus to receive salvation. Wherever a person is at when they have faith in Jesus, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
The only way people hearing the gospel and receiving it would not be desirous of immediate baptism (if we look at the conversion stories) is if they were taught something concerning baptism that wasn’t accurate or that was incomplete. Desiring baptism is not the same thing as desiring the Lord’s Supper. No one in scripture who heard the Gospel (and believed it) was commanded to immediately take Communion. But they were commanded to immediately be baptized. Any teaching that won’t command receivers of the good news to immediately be baptized(providing water is available-“see here is water, why can’t I be baptized?”) is not based on Biblical examples. “And Philip….preached unto him Jesus.” Included in the preaching about Jesus, is the Biblical response to not only believe on Jesus, but to be baptized towards forgiveness, in Jesus name. Once a person “believes and is baptized” they have put Christ on. They are said to be “buried with him” and are “raised with him” to walk in “newness of life.” It’s a beautiful thing.
I don’t believe a person has to go to someone other than Jesus to receive salvation. Wherever a person is at when they have faith in Jesus, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Dwight / Monty,
I applaud your efforts. You guys have much more patience with trolls than I do.
A person goes directly to Jesus even when baptized, as they are baptized into Jesus. There are no intermediatories involved it the process, as the one who does the baptizing isn’t acting as one, but is just faciliating that function of being baptized.Jesus was baptized by John, not because He needed to for his sins, but because God desired it and Jesus knew this. Baptism is an act of accepting the grace that God has given us. Jesus is God’s grace and to reject Jesus and His words is to reject God and His grace. I found this and it has a diagram at the bottom that is very clear in how baptism is linked in scripture: http://charlesdailey.net/baptism.html
And to keep saying this is a coC thing is to not acknoledge that Martin Luther, John Welsey, John Calvin all believed in baptism as part of the plan of salvation and taught it. None of them believed baptism saved you, but neither do we, as in baptsim alone, but James points out that faith alone is not enough. All of the above taught faith and baptism in concert, sometimes varying on the strengths of, but always including them as a response.
Dwight/Monty
Do you notice that when an individual begins to use their think so’s as authority it becomes easy for them to refuse God’s Word. Scripture messages become meaningless. We can quote scripture, explain the context of messages in scripture in multiple places which are directed directly to the questions asked and cannot break through the barrier that blocks the understanding of one who does not recognize the scriptures as authority.
Larry that is not a fair criticism of Grace. While I do not agree with every point either of you are making, and frankly find the tone often becoming offensive by more than one party, I believe that each of you is searching the scriptures and seeking the truth. I no more believe Grace believes one should not be baptized than I believe that you believe the water is magical and that being dunked in it is all that is required to be saved. One or both of you may be wrong, but neither is denying scripture or who Christ is.
Sorry, Part of the conversation wasn’t directed to you, just the first part, the other part was addressing Grace’s argument. My argument to you was that to refuse direct scripture that leaves little room for argument is to refuse God. Mark 16:16 is very direct. There are many things that can be questionable, but this verse isn’t one of them and it is much better than I Peter 3:21.
There are as many scriptures that talk of baptism and salvation, as there are faith and salvation, as there are repentance and salvation, etc. It is hard to talk with someone who doesn’t see the whole picture because they are narrowed down to one part of it. If grace is sufficient, then faith is not even required, as it is a work produced from man as well, and God will save us no matter what we do. God has always required of us action and obedience, even when asked to do something that we might consider work. We shouldn’t have to think about it, just do respond.
Johnny,
We have been responding for weeks possibly months with Grace concerning statements and sometimes questions she has posted. Many times we have provided answers and messages from Christ and the Apostles that dealt directly to the subject and she totally refuses to acknowledge that we even responded. She just re-posts the exact statements, or attempt to support her concept from teachers, preachers, historians some of whom became looked upon as leaders and originators of denominations as if they had authority to alter scriptures.
You would be welcome to enter the conversation and post your support either direction, I explained my present feelings, but I will still be observing what other commentors are able to achieve.
My patience in this present conversation has neared its stopping point. Grace has a tendency to pit scripture against scripture to try to prove a point in regards to baptism and faith and grace, as if they all do not work together towards the same goal and don’t have Christ own words behind them. This is like arguing that while the scriptures say “God is love.” that we find in others scriptures where he hates certain things and then bringing the focus on the hate to argue against the love. This ignores that God is love and offers love, but can hate things that are sinful and repellant. In other words many things can be true without contradicting the other. Grace and baptism and faith and works and mercy can all be vitally important without any one being less important to the point of nothing. And faith and baptism doesn’t disregard grace and mercy, but is our response to it’s power. God’s wisdom is greater than ours and who are we to question it?
Unto him who that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.. Revelation 1:5
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:11
Baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
On hearing this they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:5
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
..even as Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. Ephesians 5:26
Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
Cleanse me as with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me and I will be whiter than snow. Ps. 51:7
Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. Ps. 51:2
Wash and make yourselves clean….stop doing wrong! Isaiah 1:16
Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be white as snow. Isaiah 1:18
According to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Psalm 51:1
Repent ye, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out….Acts 3:19
Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins. Acts 2:38
Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sin, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21
This water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also, not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a good conscience. 1 Peter 3:21
In the words of Rascal Flatts:
I came up out of the water
Raise my hands up to the Father
Gave it all to Him that day
Felt a new wind kiss my face
Walked away, eyes wide open
Could finally see where I was goin’
It didn’t matter where I been
I’m not the same man I was then
God’s salvation is from the beginning of the foundations of the earth since He first created man. People are saved through God’s plan that’s been since the beginning. From people before the Cross looking forward with symbolic acts to the One who would save them from their sins, to people after the Cross looking back with symbolic acts to the One who saved us from our sins.
Job 19:25-26 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God.
David used strong descriptive language. The symbols helped him see the cleansing blood of the true Sacrifice who would come to truly wash away all of his sins.
The language used in the Hebrew Scriptures some people think the sacrifices and sin offerings took away people’s sins. The Hebrew Scriptures sacrifices and sin offerings did not give forgiveness of sins, they only prefigured as an antitype of the One who takes away our sins.
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
I don’t believe baptism as salvic, I see it pointing to the One who saved us, Jesus our only Savior who sacrificed His blood on the cross. We can dive into the Pacific Ocean and it is nothing compared to what He did dying for us on the cross. Jesus declares me innocent by His act taking the punishment I deserved.
I don’t believe a person has to go to someone other than Jesus to receive salvation. Wherever a person is at when they have faith in Jesus, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
His act of sacrifice is the only perfection that I can stand before my God as innocent. We are saved by His grace that comes through faith relying on His sacrifice offered to God, the perfect sacrifice.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace,
Your own comments explain the importance of baptism, Notice.
“From people before the Cross looking forward with symbolic acts to the One who would save them from their sins, to people after the Cross looking back with symbolic acts to the One who saved us from our sins.”
Before the cross there were symbolic acts that God commanded to be performed. Those who obeyed and performed those acts became recipients of salvation. Anyone who did not obey and perform the acts did not receive salvation.
If any of those who did not do the acts received salvation God was not just. His promises were only to those who obeyed. If anyone who did not obey received salvation then, then God would have been bound to give salvation to all who disobeyed. In simpler terms everybody received salvation and no one could be lost.
The same principals would apply to a symbolic act this side of the cross. If any who did not obey the instructions to perform the symbolic act or acts received salvation, then all must receive salvation, nobody could be lost.
Do you realize how much of the scriptures would just be worthless words if that was true? All warnings about any punishment would be void, useless. Only the Devil and his angels would be punished. On second thought what standard would God spare all of mankind who totally rejected him and not spare the Devil and his angels.
God is a just God he could not commit such atrocities.
Again grace you reject one thing but accept another similar thing. You say, “Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.”
In the Jewish system sacrifices were rituals, but Jesus was involved in the greatest sacrifice/ritual ever. He performed a ritual in his death. This surely wasn’t worth anything since it was a ritual by your way of thinking. In this ritual Jesus sacrificed for all. You surely think this ritual is fine right? But how could He performing a ritual bestow His grace to us? This must be a pretty bad teaching from Jesus? If Jesus, the one who performed this great ritual for our sake asked us to perform a ritual for ours and His that He commanded, why would we think it wasn’t important when he says it was. We reject a commanded ritual and we reject Jesus, who we are buried with and raised with.
Some believe sin offerings and animal sacrifices saved people in the Hebrew Scriptures, they believe the law saved people back then. I disagree, I believe the law was showing them they needed a Savior.
They were offering the sacrifices because they broke God’s law. The sacrifices didn’t mean they weren’t breaking the law anymore, the sacrifices and offerings were an antitype of what Christ would one day do for them.
Romans 3:20 “Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what sin is.”
People couldn’t keep the law perfectly, they needed a Savior.
Paul had followed the law, yet he was the chief of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15
Peter said in Acts 15:10, “Why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”
The Pharisee sought to keep God’s law as righteousness and went down to his house not justified. Luke 18:9-17
Romans 4:3-8 The Holy Writings say, Abraham put his trust in God and that made him right with God. If a man works, his pay is not a gift. It is something he has earned. If a man has not worked to be saved, but has put his trust in God Who saves men from the punishment of their sins, that man is made right with God because of his trust in God. David tells of this. He spoke of how happy the man is who puts his trust in God without working to be saved from the punishment of sin. Those people are happy whose sinful acts are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Those people are happy whose sins the Lord will not remember.
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
I don’t believe a person has to go to someone other than Jesus to receive salvation. Wherever a person is at when they have faith in Jesus, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone?
Grace,
If a man is forgiven for sins he is no longer a sinner, if no longer a sinner or sinful wouldn’t he be then saved from condemnation for being a sinner? Could you or anyone be forgiven for just one sin? Of course you can, but if you have committed multiple acts of sin would you have to deal with each one in a separate action to obtain forgiveness for one at a time? In other words say there were 20 sins that you had committed would you have to repent 20 times to be forgiven? If you repented once and were pronounced forgiven, would the other 19 sins still be condemning you?
You have made the following statements.
“Some believe sin offerings and animal sacrifices saved people in the Hebrew Scriptures, they believe the law saved people back then. I disagree, I believe the law was showing them they needed a Savior”
And
“They were offering the sacrifices because they broke God’s law. The sacrifices didn’t mean they weren’t breaking the law anymore, the sacrifices and offerings were an antitype of what Christ would one day do for them.”
I believe that the following scriptures teach exactly the opposite message than you are promoting. Go ahead and read them in whatever translation you prefer, I believe the message will still teach the same result.
(Lev 4:25 KJV) And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Lev 4:35 KJV) And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Num 15:24 KJV) Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. 25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: 26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance. 27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
We notice this about Abel’s sacrifice. By it he obtained witness that he was righteous. Can one be counted as righteous and also be a sinner? Point being that the sacrifice was done according to the instructions God gave Abel, Cain still sacrificed but without obedience and was rejected.
(Heb 11:4 KJV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Do you believe that when Christ died on the cross, those who are dead now, had obeyed God prior to that time were they forgiven for their sin’s or saved? I do.
Then that leads me to another question, those who did not sacrifice according to God’s instructions before they died, were they also forgiven or saved? I believe that they were not forgiven or saved.
If these two statements are correct then sacrificing was an action in which determined whether an individual was saved or not saved.
Of course, we cannot use those instructions in this Covenant, the rules changed that is exactly why Jesus came to earth, to change men into a different relationship with The Creator.
If obediently obeying instructions to a sacrificial ritual in the OT allowed them to be forgiven. Oh by the way, they were forgiven immediately they did not have to bear the burden of these sins until Jesus was crucified to be forgiven. As many times as they had to be forgiven until they died they had to sacrifice for each new sin. The whole nation of Israel had to be cleansed by the sacrifice of the High Priest each year until Christ removed their sins with his sacrifice.
We still alive claim the free gift of salvation (you know, no sacrifice or work to be performed to obtain the gift) just ask with faith. Would you deny those who have already died who could not ask, but performed these rituals, sacrifices in obedience understanding that if they did not do these they would not inherit the rewards of the Messiah? So all of the dead were required to do something to receive a reward but now men claim that mankind still living do not have that responsibility? Could you testify that those who died did not have the same kind or amount of faith that we count as saving faith today? If they had as much faith as God requires today, why did they have to sacrifice and perform rituals? If they had enough faith that they would have accepted Jesus why wouldn’t he just save them like men expect today. In fact they had verified their faith many years prior to receiving their gift of salvation, but have you noticed when they were informed of their reward before receiving it? I do not believe that you can show in scriptures where God informed us that he was no longer requiring sacrifice from those who desire to be his children. There is a cost to be a child of God. Acceptance into the family cannot be bought, but if you are faithful to him it will cost you all you have for the rest of your life.
Grace, people who believed in Jesus as the risen Savior in the scriptures were all baptized, there isn’t any mention of even one exception who believed and wasn’t baptized (post resurrection.) A person who becomes a believer in a prison, or on an airplane, (if they are taught right), they will desire baptism, like the Eunuch desired baptism when he was taught it’s importance in salvation, such as to be clothed with Christ, to be baptized into the authority of his name, to wash away sins, so that their sins may be forgiven, to be raised with him to share in his resurrection, to be baptized into Christ where blessings are found, to experience the washing of regeneration, to be sanctified, washed. That’s how baptism is presented scripturally. If a person is taught right and they are hindered by a lack of water, 1st opportunity they have, they will demand baptism. “Why can’t I be baptized?” Believers who get off an airplane (having come to Jesus on the airplane) and they get off seeking baptism are not trusting in baptism, but are trusting in the Savior’s command to be baptized. Whether getting off an airplane, a train, or a chariot, they say, “where is water, why can’t I be baptized?” Of course, you could always teach them to do it later on down the road when the spirit moved them, or do it to join your particular denomination, but somehow that doesn’t seem, well, Biblically accurate.
As to whether the plane crashed before they could be baptized, God is good, and he always does what’s right. But as far as what we are to teach goes, believers get baptized ASAP, “same hour of the night”, even if it’s after midnight and there are no hair dryers, or plastic hair caps for the ladies, believers do it the same day(and 3,000 were added to their number “that day”). Paul receives his sight and the first thing he is commanded to do is be baptized, not “rejoice” or “sing hallelujah.” But you be baptized. Why Grace? Why is it so empathic, so incumbent upon believers? Why go out of your way to immediately do something that according to you isn’t even important as far as salvation goes. Could you possibly be missing something?
So, there’s nothing wrong with anyone attending your denomination arguing the same arguments, repeating things they were told in the CofC denomination, and not answering questions. But anyone from other churches, they aren’t supposed to do that. Double standards are something else many in the CofC denomination are good at.
How do you explain grace to someone?
There was nobody here who would say how they explain grace to someone. They just repeated what they have been told in their denomination. That’s why I reposted it.
Someone scurrying around an airport to find another person to dunk them in a tub is not God’s grace. But hey, they could land at an airport with employees who are from the CofC denomination with a baptismal in the back of their truck.
I don’t believe a person has to go to someone other than Jesus to receive salvation. Wherever a person is at when they have faith in Jesus, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient.
God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at. Jesus Christ is the grace of God. The person of Christ is God’s grace. When we receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, accepting the truth of what Christ did for us, we have received God’s grace. We have received the grace God gives by the sacrifice of His Son. Such grace is personal and powerful.
Christ alone is my eternal salvation, I rely on what Christ did for me on the cross as my salvation.
His act of sacrifice is the only perfection that I can stand before my God as innocent. We are saved by His grace that comes through faith relying on His sacrifice offered to God, the perfect sacrifice.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in him.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
And still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There was nobody here who would say they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “understanding ” of baptism, are saved. All that was said was that there are people in the CofC denomination and other churches who do. That’s why I reposted it.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. That’s why I reposted it.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given were Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, none of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil. That’s why I reposted it.
Grace,
Before I do a re-post I will explain why I would not attempt to answer your question following.
“Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
You did not identify what you believe the CoC denomination’s ‘understanding” is, and in fact there is no such thing. The CoC stands upon the Bible records and examples to explain the context of activity viewed as baptism. To do otherwise would create a rule to be obeyed which was created by CoC denomination. I know of no deviation from Bible examples that are used by CoC concerning baptism.
It is very obvious that you really have a totally different goal in mind as you ask this question.
That brings me to ask of you what baptisms will you accept?
When you mentioned the term baptized, were you referring to immersion as all of the examples display or were you attempting to interject sprinkling or pouring of water over a person?
The next post will address your next question about faith.
Grace,
If a man is forgiven for sins he is no longer a sinner, if no longer a sinner or sinful wouldn’t he be then saved from condemnation for being a sinner? Could you or anyone be forgiven for just one sin? Of course you can, but if you have committed multiple acts of sin would you have to deal with each one in a separate action to obtain forgiveness for one at a time? In other words say there were 20 sins that you had committed would you have to repent 20 times to be forgiven? If you repented once and were pronounced forgiven, would the other 19 sins still be condemning you?
You have made the following statements.
“Some believe sin offerings and animal sacrifices saved people in the Hebrew Scriptures, they believe the law saved people back then. I disagree, I believe the law was showing them they needed a Savior”
And
“They were offering the sacrifices because they broke God’s law. The sacrifices didn’t mean they weren’t breaking the law anymore, the sacrifices and offerings were an antitype of what Christ would one day do for them.”
I believe that the following scriptures teach exactly the opposite message than you are promoting. Go ahead and read them in whatever translation you prefer, I believe the message will still teach the same result.
(Lev 4:25 KJV) And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Lev 4:35 KJV) And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Num 15:24 KJV) Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. 25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: 26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance. 27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
We notice this about Abel’s sacrifice. By it he obtained witness that he was righteous. Can one be counted as righteous and also be a sinner? Point being that the sacrifice was done according to the instructions God gave Abel, Cain still sacrificed but without obedience and was rejected.
(Heb 11:4 KJV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Do you believe that when Christ died on the cross, those who are dead now, had obeyed God prior to that time were they forgiven for their sin’s or saved? I do.
Then that leads me to another question, those who did not sacrifice according to God’s instructions before they died, were they also forgiven or saved? I believe that they were not forgiven or saved.
If these two statements are correct then sacrificing was an action in which determined whether an individual was saved or not saved.
Of course, we cannot use those instructions in this Covenant, the rules changed that is exactly why Jesus came to earth, to change men into a different relationship with The Creator.
If obediently obeying instructions to a sacrificial ritual in the OT allowed them to be forgiven. Oh by the way, they were forgiven immediately they did not have to bear the burden of these sins until Jesus was crucified to be forgiven. As many times as they had to be forgiven until they died they had to sacrifice for each new sin. The whole nation of Israel had to be cleansed by the sacrifice of the High Priest each year until Christ removed their sins with his sacrifice.
We still alive claim the free gift of salvation (you know, no sacrifice or work to be performed to obtain the gift) just ask with faith. Would you deny those who have already died who could not ask, but had performed these rituals, sacrifices in obedience and understanding that if they did not do these they would not inherit the rewards of the Messiah? So all of the dead were required to do something to receive a reward but now men claim that mankind still living do not have that responsibility? Could you testify that those who died did not have the same kind or amount of faith that we count as saving faith today? If they had as much faith as God requires today, why did they have to sacrifice and perform rituals? If they had enough faith that they would have accepted Jesus why wouldn’t he just save them like men expect today. In fact they had verified their faith many years prior to receiving their gift of salvation, but have you noticed when they were informed of their reward before receiving it? I do not believe that you can show in scriptures where God informed us that he was no longer requiring sacrifice from those who desire to be his children. There is a cost to be a child of God. Acceptance into the family cannot be bought, but if you are faithful to him it will cost you all you have for the rest of your life.
Grace,
I am braking this post into segments, for some reason it won’t post while complete.
If a man is forgiven for sins he is no longer a sinner, if no longer a sinner or sinful wouldn’t he be then saved from condemnation for being a sinner? Could you or anyone be forgiven for just one sin? Of course you can, but if you have committed multiple acts of sin would you have to deal with each one in a separate action to obtain forgiveness for one at a time? In other words say there were 20 sins that you had committed would you have to repent 20 times to be forgiven? If you repented once and were pronounced forgiven, would the other 19 sins still be condemning you?
You have made the following statements.
“Some believe sin offerings and animal sacrifices saved people in the Hebrew Scriptures, they believe the law saved people back then. I disagree, I believe the law was showing them they needed a Savior”
And
“They were offering the sacrifices because they broke God’s law. The sacrifices didn’t mean they weren’t breaking the law anymore, the sacrifices and offerings were an antitype of what Christ would one day do for them.”
I guess I have to attempt the balance later. Stay tuned.
Psalm 40:6 “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.”
Romans 3:20 “Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what sin is.”
Paul had followed the law, yet he was the chief of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15
Peter said in Acts 15:10, “Why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”
The Pharisee sought to keep God’s law as righteousness and went down to his house not justified. Luke 18:9-14
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 “You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.”
And still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone? Romans 4:1-8
I believe that the following scriptures teach a different concept than you are promoting.
Go ahead and read them in whatever translation you prefer, I believe the message will still teach the same result.
(Lev 4:25 KJV) And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Lev 4:35 KJV) And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Num 15:25 KJV) And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance. 27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Those who sacrificed under the Jewish system were forgiven, when?
Grace,
I’ll attempt this once more for the sake of those who are not willing to answer the question because of it’s context. The context that you place it in makes the CoC the authority for baptism, no body of Christians has that authority, only God’s Word is the authority.
You also do not identify whether, “as long as they were baptized” includes that they have faith, you can baptize a pickle and if you do that properly it will be preserved. You can immerse any individual in baptism without following the directives in scripture, and that action will not save them. But, then of course your goal is to prove that Paul and Peter got it wrong, that baptism saves no one.
Therefore to answer your question (yes), you would only object on that basis.
To answer your question (no) could be the correct answer to assure that just being wet in baptism accomplishes nothing.
Your question is not directed towards a Biblical answer.
Grace,
Did you not understand as you read Romans that Paul was directing the message to Christians? There is not one portion of Romans that is instructions to non-Christians.
I see that the complete post finally posted Nov 20 just before I had tried to shorten it. Thanks.
Romans 1:7 And so I write to all of you in Rome whom God loves and has called to be his own people: May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
I don’t believe Paul thought they were all Christians. Paul was ready to preach the gospel to them.
Romans 1:15 That’s why I’m ready to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
Psalm 40:6 “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.”
Romans 3:20 “Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what sin is.”
Paul had followed the law, yet he was the chief of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15
Peter said in Acts 15:10, “Why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”
The Pharisee sought to keep God’s law as righteousness and went down to his house not justified. Luke 18:9-14
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 “You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.”
And still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone? Romans 4:1-8
Grace,
Paul is speaking and states in this verse that he is writing to (all of you in Rome whom God loves and HAS called to be his own people), has is past tense, he is not calling them to become Christians they are already.
Romans 1:7 And so I write to all of you in Rome whom God loves and has called to be his own people: May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
You have stated the following statement, “I don’t believe Paul thought they were all Christians. Paul was ready to preach the gospel to them.”
you must not have read the verses between the next verse that you quote.
(Rom 1:8 NRSV) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world. 9 For God, whom I serve with my spirit by announcing the gospel of his Son, is my witness that without ceasing I remember you always in my prayers, 10 asking that by God’s will I may somehow at last succeed in coming to you. 11 For I am longing to see you so that I may share with you some spiritual gift to strengthen you– 12 or rather so that we may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith, both yours and mine. 13 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as I have among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish
Romans 1:15 That’s why I’m ready to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.: May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Paul explains that these whom he is addressing are (brothers and sisters) and in verse 8 states that , “I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world”. Show us a little bit of his writing that identifies that they were non-believers.
You have identified that the Gospel should be taught to those who are not Christians. Why would you consider that Christians not be taught the Gospel? Could you have the idea that after an individual heard the Gospel and believed, they would then be Christians? That is a very positive thought. Now what I must ask you is to show us a place in scripture where the Gospel was preached with out teaching baptism. There is 8 events in scripture where individuals who were being taught the Gospel and they responded by submitting to baptism.
Were these verses speaking of a portion of the Gospel that we can read about in Acts 2 as Peter delivered the sermon?
(Rom 6:4 NRSV) Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.
Paul was not asking those in Rome who believed and had faith to perform this act, he was describing what was going on as they had been previously baptized.
You stated, “Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.”
You speak of Peter, but you leave out Peters messages telling men to be baptized for remission of sins, and you also ignore Peter’s message following..
(1 Pet 3:20 NRSV) who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you–not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Do I need to provide more evidence to help you to understand Peter and Paul?
Grace pits baptism as being against belief as if it’s one or the other, but not both. Either – or, but not believe “and” be baptized(God’s words, not mine). Cornelius and his family were not exempt from the command to be baptized because they had their hearts cleansed by faith. Peter commanded it (Something Grace would not do evidently).
All non-Christians who seek redemption through faith have their hearts cleansed by that faith, of which baptism is a component. There was absolutely no chance Cornelius and his family would not be baptized according to God’s foreknowledge. For God knew their hearts and he wouldn’t have cleansed their hearts by faith if they would have said ,”No thanks” to the command to be baptized.
God gave them the Holy Spirit in a way that hadn’t manifested itself in years, Peter said, “the Holy Spirit came on them as he did us(us who?) probably the 120 , at the beginning (The beginning of what? )-Pentecost! So, right away we see that there was something atypical in this conversion. So much so it made Peter think of something Jesus had said years ago in his ministry on earth ,he evidently hadn’t thought of in years. “Then I remembered what the Lord had said, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ This scenario was so strange-rare, it jogged something in Peter’s memory. So if God gave “them”(Gentiles) the same gift as he gave to us(Jews) who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” (how would Peter stand in God’s way?) By not allowing baptism into Christ. “Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Ghost the same was we.’ That was the big concern Peter was answering, Peter how could you baptize Gentiles? Shouldn’t you have made them Jews first? How could you make them one of us? Have you lost your mind? If baptism is just an outward sign of something that happened in the past, a mere ritual observance, then why all the fuss? It makes no sense. The sign in this instance was the Holy Spirit, baptizing Cornelius and family, thus proving to Peter and Co. they were fully accepted by God having their hearts cleansed by faith(not circumcision first, then baptism. But by believing and being baptized we become one with God and HIs community.
Cornelius’ conversion doesn’t undermine the necessity for baptism as some would have us believe. It shows that Gentiles who believe and are are baptized, have their hearts cleansed by faith. God went ahead and showed to Peter and Co. in a visible manifestation that which hadn’t happened since “the beginning” , that he(God) had done on the inside what “normally” transpires at baptism. Hearts being cleansed by faith.
Had this not happened Cornelius and family would have believed, and Peter and Co. would have hem-hauled around about “Should we baptize them or not? What about making them Jews 1st? God by a mystery took all the mystery out of what to do with these believers. You baptize them into the fold. You accept them as brothers with full membership without requiring them 1st to become a Jew and placing the Law around their neck. Grace believes requiring baptism is the same as placing the Law around someone’s neck. Strange, Peter didn’t think so. Neither did Paul.
The gospel is not baptism. The gospel is the preaching of the cross, it is the good news about Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to proclaim the gospel, not with clever speech, lest the cross of Christ be emptied. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I don’t believe everyone at a church is saved. I believe every church has both saved people and lost people who are there. I believe in Romans Paul’s words were mainly to Christians but also had in mind, as we always should, that anyone there could be lost.
I go to church and love being with all the saints. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there won’t be any lost people there.
Paul was writing to a church he had not visited. Paul was at Corinth when he wrote the letter to the Romans. He commends Phoebe who he sent to them from the church in Cenchrea, Corinth’s eastern seaport. Paul was about to set out to Jerusalem and he hoped to go to Rome when he journeyed to Spain.
Paul even suggests there could be some there who had not received God’s Spirit.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Monty said, “For God knew their hearts and he wouldn’t have cleansed their hearts by faith if they would have said ,”No thanks” to the command to be baptized.”
So your theology is that God cleansed their hearts when they had faith because He already knew they would be baptized. Wow, the theology keeps on getting weirder!
Monty said, “The sign in this instance was the Holy Spirit, baptizing Cornelius and family, thus proving to Peter and Co. they were fully accepted by God having their hearts cleansed by faith not circumcision first, then baptism.”
Peter never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him. The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is not an energy or a concept. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. He is God.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Monty said, “That was the big concern Peter was answering, Peter how could you baptize Gentiles? Shouldn’t you have made them Jews first? How could you make them one of us? Have you lost your mind?”
Peter didn’t say, boy I’m sure glad God gave them the Holy Spirit first so I would baptize them. Peter saw they believed and knew we are to baptize those who believe in Jesus and told them to be baptized.
God didn’t accept them so the Jews would accept them, that would be a small god. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
Monty said: “Had this not happened Cornelius and family would have believed, and Peter and Co. would have hem-hauled around about “Should we baptize them or not? What about making them Jews 1st?”
God had already changed Peter’s heart that people cannot be ritually clean. Peter explained this to Cornelius when they met, Acts 10:28 “He said to them, You yourselves know very well that a Jew is not allowed by his religion to visit or associate with Gentiles. But God has shown me that I must not consider any person ritually unclean or defiled.”
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
And still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone? Romans 4:1-8
John, that is very good. Just do it. When Jesus asked for the fisherman to follow him they did. When the lost in Acts 2 said, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Responding without knowing why and questioning the reason takes faith. But they were later told the reason…baptized into Christ, his death and raised again in newness of life.
Grace places salvation in faith and yet shows little in not just believing Jesus own words in Mark 16:16 and just accepting this. The apostles showed in Acts that they believed and did.
Mark 16:16 I not coC doctrine, but Jesus doctrine. It just so happens that many people do not have faith in Jesus to JUST DO IT. Grace is God giving us an avenue toward salvation when we did not and do not deserve it in faith and baptism and repentance.
And still waiting:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
How do you explain grace to someone? Romans 4:1-8
Grace,
It’s not that the questions are hard to deal with. I don’t think anyone is avoiding the questions. The questions just aren’t very good. They are ill defined.
1). Some…they…understanding…they…them.” Who are these people and what do they mean? What is the “understanding” to which you refer? There is no COC governing body that determines doctrine. Each congregation is autonomous, thus “understandings” vary greatly.
2). Jesus didn’t change his mind.
3). I suspect that you misquoted someone here, or at least didn’t provide all the context.
4). Unmerited favor. Sin separated man from God. No amount of human effort or deeds could ever reconcile sinful man with God. Because of his sin, man deserves eternal punishment. Fortunately, God loved us while we were yet sinners and died for us, providing sinful man with a means of forgiveness and reconciliation. The free gift of salvation is available for all who will obey Him. We don’t deserve the gift of salvation, but God provided it anyway by grace due to his love for us.
1) It’s a simple question, and it’s obvious from the previous comments why I’m asking. So to those who think it’s okay for people from their denomination to ask questions, yet don’t think other people should, the question is still here:
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
2) You said, “Jesus didn’t change his mind.” and I agree. And anyone who hasn’t answered the question, it is still here:
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
3) It’s a simple question, and from the previous comments by those from the CofC denomination their theology of a believer before they are baptized is obvious. So anyone who hasn’t answered the question, it is still here:
You say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
4) To be more specific, some people try to earn God’s love and forgiveness by an action. We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Grace,
You are not listening. The question (#1) may be simple…that’s not the issue…but it is poorly phrased. There is no “COC understanding” of baptism. You have asked a hypothetical based on a false premise. “COC understandings” of this issue span the entire spectrum, much like Baptists. If you pay attention to this blog, you will quickly note that Jay Guin’s understanding of baptism is different from mine, which is different from others, which is different from others. If you want a dialogue on this question, then you really need to define what YOU mean by “COC understanding,” This question is like guessing a number between 1 and 10.
2) Glad we agree on this. I’m sure everyone else agrees as well. However, there is likely quite a bit of disagreement on this blog as to what Christ actually meant.
3) This question appears to have a few erroneous presuppositions. You appear to be saying, “If the Bible doesn’t specifically state “X” then “X” is false.” Well, that may or may not be true. The Bible does not specifically condemn “premarital sex,” but it does address fornication. The Bible doesn’t specifically address abortion, but that doesn’t mean that it has nothing to say on life in the womb. The NT doesn’t specifically address “spousal abuse,” but that doesn’t mean that such is not sinful. The Bible doesn’t specifically state that “homosexual behavior is sinful,” but that doesn’t mean that the Bible doesn’t address the subject in a different manner using different terminology. I am referring to these examples because I have heard others use them…”Well, the Bible doesn’t specifically state that homosexual behavior [or premarital sex, or abortion, or spousal abuse] is wrong.” True. It doesn’t have to; it says it in different ways.
4) I’ll go out on a limb here. I suspect that there is not a single person on this blog who tries to earn God’s love and forgiveness by an action. Such cannot be done, and everyone here knows it. Who are the some to which you are referring? Did someone post this statement? Perhaps I missed it, but I just performed a search of this entire thread for the term “earn,” and you are the one who introduced it. Just because one desires to obey God does not mean that one is attempting to earn salvation.
Hi Grace, I’ll make this short. I believe I am saved by grace (period) through faith (period). I also believe there is NO good reason for neglecting the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s upper. Do you believe, or do you believe the scriptures teach baptism as “an optional extra” – a sort of take it if you want too but don’t consider it necessary as part of a faithful, biblical response to the grace that has been shown to you. It is a simple thing as is the supper. Anyone, no matter how poor can participate unless there are extreme circumstances like being in the middle of a water-less place. Jesus said to do it so why would anyone who truly believes neglect it? As has been pointed out here, the concept of an unbaptized believer is foreign to the New Testament – I thinbk FF Bruce wrote that. He was conservative but not CofC.
Hesed,
Randall
Hi Grace,
I was raised in the CofC but attend another fellowship now. I believe I am saved by grace (period) through faith (period). Do you believe or believe that the scriptures teach baptism is an “optional extra” – a term used by FF Bruce. A sort of take it if you want it or need it but not anything more than that? Both baptism and the Lord’s Supper are such simple things that Jesus said to do. Why would anyone, knowing that, neglect to do them? FF Bruce also wrote that “the concept of an unbaptized believer is foreign to the NT.” So what gives? The CofC will argue baptism with you until Jesus returns – are you just trying to keep the ball bouncing. Why would anyone neglect such simple commands of Jesus like the supper and baptism. Anyone, rich or poor, can participate. Why would someone knowing choose to neglect these ordinances?
Hesed,
Randall
Grace,
Sorry, I missed Dwight (November 24, 2014 at 4:35 pm). That’s at least five times by three different posters who have expressed confusion about your question…”Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under their CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized.”
Do you realize that you have cut, pasted, and repeated that sentence 24 times in this thread. In addition to the original usage, that’s 25 times you have posted this sentence. You cut and pasted the same sentence NINE times AFTER the first indication of confusion. Nine times! That can be perceived as just being combative and dismissive.
Repeated instances of cutting and pasting do not equate to honest conversation. If one is sincere in seeking truth and discussing contemporary spiritual issues in a manner that facilitates learning and growth for everyone, one should listen and attempt to engage in meaningful dialogue rather than merely repost long diatribes with little additional content. That doesn’t help anyone, especially when there have been repeated comments regarding a lack of clarity.
Grace,
I just saw your comment from 5:36. With that comment, we are now up to 25 instances of repetition, with 10 being after the first instance of confusion. That’s a trend.
You said:
“Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him. I’m sorry you are having difficulty with it.”
Is that really your response? Perhaps Johnny is just smarter than me and the others. Or perhaps he has more experience. Or perhaps he has been in COCs longer. You are basically saying, “Too bad. Johnny could answer my question; therefore, everyone else should be able to. Too bad if you are confused; I don’t care. Now, answer my question anyway. I’ll cut and paste it again for you without change.”
Then, of course, you cut and paste more sentences without truly attempting to engage anyone. Here are a few interesting stats. Your latest post totaled 572 words; however, only 29 words were original thoughts. Everything else was cut and pasted. That’s a whopping 5% of original thought. It’s also intellectually lazy. And, it’s insulting. More than a few individuals have attempted to have a conversation with you, but you seem more inclined to dismiss and regurgitate.
Seriously, Grace. Do you want to have a conversation, or are you just here to argue and sow discord?
If you don’t like how someone comments you can quit having a discussion with them.
And actually my question is to find out if you accept Christians as others from the CofC denomination have. It’s not a question to sow discord, the question is about whether or not you will have unity.
Grace,
you speak of unity, well there can never be unity without a basis of authority. I have given you answers to all of you questions directly from context in the scriptures that deal with the subjects within your questions, sometimes the answer is a direct quote from our Lord sometimes from his Apostles and you have refused to accept those answers. You then expect all of us to submit to your interpretation of information which is gleaned from mostly one verse statements removed from the context they are used in, unity, no way will I submit to unity with you until you allow the scriptures to be the authority.
Oh, by the way you really have not applied much time in research of the scriptures about this Christian or follower of Christ who is a child of the devil, because that is an exact statement from Christ about Judas. You could also see that application applied by Christ as he gave the message to John during the Revelation (not a direct quote (devil) but an equivalent description) for many of the members of the seven churches. He also was very authoritative in his communication that many of those who were believers would not receive the blessings from him unless they performed an action (completely their responsibility, he would not do it for them nor would the sacrifice that he had performed cover their neglect).
You are constantly attempting to create the concept that this gift from God of salvation has to free from any action from the individual receiving or the individual receiving it will have earned it. To that I will direct you to re-evaluate the Cornelius story. Did you understand Cornelius was instructed by an Angel of God to send for Peter, he sent his servants to find Peter, would you not expect that they received compensation for doing what their master instructed them to do? Who compensated them? As you read the story again determine at what time Cornelius exhibited faith, did he not display just as much faith as Abraham in following instructions from the Angel? Why did he not receive the gift as soon as he had faith before he had to obey instructions? The Angel told him, reading from your expressed favorite, “(Act 10:5 YLT) and now send men to Joppa, and send for a certain one Simon, who is surnamed Peter, 6 this one doth lodge with a certain Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea; this one shall speak to thee what it behoveth thee to do.’
In this verse the Angel explained that when Peter would come, there would be something that he (Cornelius) would be expected to do. That is what the phrase (what it behoveth thee to do) has reference to, an action. Under your determination because Cornelius was required to send, listen, and then obey what he was told, he would have earned his salvation. Of course, you will deny that was true for Cornelius, but you want to apply the result to anyone today.
Let’s look more carefully at the message that Peter delivered. It has been supposed by many that (Cornelius) was not aware of the events about the cruficition and that Peter was delivering the Good News (The Gospel) to Cornelius, but Peter explains in many verses that Cornelius already knew the whole story, every translation that I checked supported Cornelius’s knowledge of the event..
(Act 10:37 YLT) ye–ye have known; –the word that came throughout all Judea, having begun from Galilee, after the baptism that John preached; 38 Jesus who is from Nazareth–how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him; 39 and we–we are witnesses of all things that he did, both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem, –whom they did slay, having hanged upon a tree. 40 `This one God did raise up the third day, and gave him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses, to those having been chosen before by God–to us who did eat with him , and did drink with him, after his rising out of the dead; 42 and he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify fully that it is he who hath been ordained by God judge of living and dead– 43 to this one do all the prophets testify, that through his name every one that is believing in him doth receive remission of sins.’
As we continue to read we will notice that God sent the Spirit upon Cornelius and family, was that something that they did which would have been referenced by the Angel? No. God and the was performing the action, Cornelius was being used by God in a likeness of Balaam’s Donkey.
Then, after seeing God’s actions toward Cornelius and his family, Peter told him and those who came with him what he was to do, as the Angel had charged him he must do something (what it behoveth thee to do). He was to participate in water baptism, and all did. What would you consider would have been the reaction of Peter if Cornelius or any of his family would have refused to be baptized by Peter? I understand that is what you are promoting.
Grace,
Unfortunately, we are not having a discussion as you suggest. Despite my best efforts to engage you in Christian dialogue, you seem intent on following another path, and that’s your prerogative I suppose. It’s sad.
When you login to this website, do you ever think about your username? You chose “Grace” as your moniker. Perhaps your real name is Grace, but probably not. Your choice of this word wasn’t by accident, I am sure. You chose this word for a reason, perhaps because of your love and appreciation for grace. Indeed, you have used the word “grace” 91 times in the course of this comment thread. That’s no insignificant amount.
Yet, while you chose the name “Grace” and you frequently include the word “grace” in your posts, when it comes to actually demonstrating grace as an action, well….that’s where the consistency diverges.
So, what’s the diff? You want to be called “Grace,” you frequently reference grace as evidenced by the 91 times that you have used the term, yet your posts aren’t exactly in congruence with the concept, are they? Think about it. Three separate posters have made statements regarding their confusion relative to one of your questions, while only one poster answered without apparent confusion. So, only 25% understand the question. I have asked for clarification three times. I have clearly stated the basis for my confusion. Yet, all I get in return are words to the effect of, “Johnny understands. I’m sorry you are having difficulty.” That’s a child’s answer, and it certainly isn’t deserving of the moniker that you have chosen. In fact, it is the antithesis of grace. Why do you not extend your namesake, grace, to those with an honest inquiry? That’s troubling to me, and it’s far more important than the question that generated this quasi-discussion. I have attempted to answer your questions. If I had difficulty, I asked for clarity. Yet, you have been unwilling to extend me, and others, the same courtesy.
Even your latest question is ambiguous. Honestly, I don’t know how to answer it either. You asked: “…my question is to find out if you accept Christians as others from the CofC denomination have.”
-I don’t know the degree of acceptance of the “others from the COC” to which you refer. Who are these people? What is their level of acceptance as you understand it??
-What is the process whereby these persons became Christians?
-Did the “others” accept them?
-Did the “others” not accept them?
-Did the “others” partially accept them?
This is impossible for me to answer without greater detail. I know of some COC members who would accept anyone who claims to be a Christian; I know of some COC members who would not just accept anyone who claims to be a Christian without further inquiry; and I know of some COC members who would partially accept one who claims to be a Christian but would prefer that the person be baptized and/or rebaptized. Still others would exhibit a different level of acceptance based on the circumstances.
By the same token, I know of some Baptists who would accept anyone who claims to be a Christian; I know of some Baptists who would not just accept anyone who claims to be a Christian without further inquiry; and I know of some Baptists who would partially accept one who claims to be a Christian but would prefer that the person be baptized and/or rebaptized. Still others would exhibit a different level of acceptance based on the circumstances.
Grace,
You offered this after one of my comments, after I had stressed that The book of Romans was directed to Christians, not the lost, and there was no instructions therein explaining to the lost how to be saved.
“I don’t believe everyone at a church is saved. I believe every church has both saved people and lost people who are there. I believe in Romans Paul’s words were mainly to Christians but also had in mind, as we always should, that anyone there could be lost.”
“I go to church and love being with all the saints. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there won’t be any lost people there.”
(that anyone there could be lost) Is not an identification of an individual who has not become a Christian. There are many scriptures to identify that one who has become a Christian can lose their salvation through their actions.
I really believe that in much of the early church only Christians were in the assemblies. In opposition to what we see today members of the church bring their friends who are not yet Christians to assemblies. During the persecutions they were under, most likely there would be no non-committed individuals in attendance. Individuals were taught by close friends and only when they became committed would they be invited to meet with others, if that was not true one visiting non-Christian could cause a complete assembly of Christians to be wiped out (sent to their heavenly home).
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
You are constantly referring to Romans 4:1-8 as an identifier of grace. i have attempted several times to explain that Paul was communicating to only Christians there, that those messages were not to be used to apply to those who were not Christians. I will paraphrase your message to its intent, you told me above that it was your opinion that there lost people there and that you believed that the message was also to them. Let’s look at those verses.
(Rom 4:1 YLT) What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh? 2 for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast–but not before God; 3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him–to righteousness;’ 4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; 5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned–to righteousness: 6 even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works: 7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; 8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.’
Notice verse one, would Paul have included the lost (non-Christians) within the fold of (Abraham our father)?
Verses, (Rom 4:16 YLT) Because of this it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, for the promise being sure to all the seed, not to that which is of the law only, but also to that which is of the faith of Abraham, 17 who is father of us all (according as it hath been written–`A father of many nations I have set thee,’) before Him whom he did believe–God, who is quickening the dead, and is calling the things that be not as being.
Is Paul not identifying in verse 17 that “who is father of us all” being only those who have committed to Christ?
(Rom 4:24 YLT) but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned–to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.
Paul was not including non-Christians in addressing the church with these words,”but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned–to us believing on Him”.
Now that I have committed to the fact that Christians only were being addressed in Romans, I would expect you to to produce evidence to the contrary, in other words show me the evidence where Paul was addressing the lost to become Christians in this book.
I don’t believe everyone at a church is saved. I believe every church has both saved people and lost people who are there. I believe in Romans Paul’s words were mainly to Christians but also had in mind, as we always should, that anyone there could be lost.
Paul even suggests there could be some there who had not received God’s Spirit.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Larry said, “Oh, by the way you really have not applied much time in research of the scriptures about this Christian or follower of Christ who is a child of the devil, because that is an exact statement from Christ about Judas.”
Judas was not a believer, he was a deceiver.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.”
Jesus said Judas did not believe from the beginning, He knew it was Judas was who would betray Him. Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil.
I never said Cornelius had not heard about Jesus before Peter came. There were plenty of people who heard about Jesus but had not yet believed. God sent Peter to preach the gospel to them so they would hear and believe. Acts 15:7 “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.”
I guess some teach that the apostles were given the Holy Spirit as Balaam’s donkey.
Peter said Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit just as they had, Acts 15:8 “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us.”
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. And it’s been said here that Jesus’ sacrifice can be considered a ritual, and I have no problem with that, His sacrifice is the ultimate and only ritual that can take away my sins.
You say (your theology is) a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given was Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, none of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding ” of baptism, are saved.
There is only one person who said they agree with them. And I think it was commendable of Johnny. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
I’ll be praying that Christians learn to sacrifice our human pride and display an attitude of humility that helps to bring unity.
Grace said, “Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
Grace, how would you then explain, Acts 8 where in verse 12 it says,” But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women .Simon himself believed and was baptized. Grace, were these people who believed (= salvation according to you), saved before they were baptized, or when by faith they responded in the act of baptism? Or, were they not even saved yet? Why? Because you have repeatedly said that whoever does not have the Spirit does not have God.
Grace, these people had not yet received the Holy Spirit, for it says a couple of verses later, when the Apostles heard that they had accepted the word of God(that means saved right?) they sent Peter and John to Samaria, when they arrived they prayed for the new “believers” (= saved right?) to receive the Holy Spirit., Uh-Oh !! ——-because the Holy Spirit had (not yet) come upon them, they had simply been baptized in the name of Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, at what point were they saved Grace?
The people of Samaria received the gospel and believed it, but obviously their faith was not as it should be, perhaps their faith was in something else other than Christ alone, people don’t always let go of other beliefs, it doesn’t tell us why they hadn’t been saved receiving the Holy Spirit, it just says they had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, as others have been, so they certainly weren’t saved by being baptized.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as
His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say (your theology is) a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Interesting take on that account considering that they “believed the good news” and “were baptized”(he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved) but you did have to say that in order to stick with your previous statements. “Samaria had accepted the word.” Odd that you find something defective in the account, (Grace said,”but obviously their faith was not as it should be, perhaps their faith was in something else other than Christ alone”), but nothing indicates they didn’t have true belief. So, the Apostles show up and their unsaving belief becomes saving belief? How so?
All this proves is that you run into trouble trying to dissect something that only God puts together. IMO the Samaritans were plainly saved before the apostles show up. The reason the apostles came was not to convert them but because they were already baptized into Christ (converted). They came to instruct these newbies further in the good news they had already received. We can only surmise as to why the delayed giving of the Holy Spirit by the hands of the apostles. Were they the only ones who could administer Him that way?
In other words in this account of Samaritans and the account of Cornelius(Gentiles), God did things outside of the norm for the Jews. Here God delays the giving of HIs Spirit(not because they weren’t saved) but perhaps to show that God’s authority rested in the apostles, “listen to them.”
In Acts 10, God gives the Holy Spirit before baptism, again, outside the norm for Jews, to show his approval on Gentiles as acceptable for the kingdom without any strings attached(circumcision before baptism).
These two accounts should make us leery of trying to build a case against the more clearer teaching of believe, be baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit. In Acts 8 and in Acts 10, God came upon believers in a certain sequence or time frame, both times outside the normative previous experience for the Jews, not to designate lostness or savedness, but for his good purpose, to show authority was with the apostles, and for Peter and Co. to go ahead and not forbid water because God had just shown his approval of them by coming upon them pre-baptism.. If He came upon them pre-baptism, (instead of at the time of baptism)something He had only done previously once before(on Pentecost) maybe 10 years earlier, then who were they to withhold baptism from Gentiles?.
You had to suppose something as much as anyone else would, and you find something defective as well, you said, “They came to instruct these newbies further in the good news they had already received.” I agree that they needed to understand the gospel better, obviously their faith was not as it should be. And the apostles were pretty concerned that they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit that they traveled there to pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
Monty said, “Because you have repeatedly said that whoever does not have the Spirit does not have God.”
I’m not the only person who has said that:
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul said whoever does not have the Spirit does not belong to Him.
Monty said, “In Acts 10, God gives the Holy Spirit before baptism, again, outside the norm for Jews, to show his approval on Gentiles as acceptable for the kingdom without any strings attached.”
God didn’t accept them so the Jews would accept them, that would be a small god. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
God had already changed Peter’s heart that people cannot be ritually clean. Peter explained this to Cornelius when they met, Acts 10:28 “He said to them, You yourselves know very well that a Jew is not allowed by his religion to visit or associate with Gentiles. But God has shown me that I must not consider any person ritually unclean or defiled.”
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. They were saved before they were baptized and Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say (your theology is) a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
You say (your theology is) a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
You have committed to this statement, “Paul even suggests there could be some there who had not received God’s Spirit.”
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
You must be referring to this part of the verse, “if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.”
According to Paul anyone within the assembly in Rome who does not have this spirit does not belong to Christ. You have agree that those are lost? I guess then you would be claiming that they did not have faith because you claim that anyone who has faith receives salvation, but notice Paul does not identify that the reason for them not having the spirit is that they do not have faith.
With that terminology they could not be addressed by Paul as, “shall we say Abraham our father” the our is inclusive of all that he is writing to in Rome and he is also including them within a fellowship with himself. Now, would you really believe that Paul would communicate with those at The Church at Rome knowing that some there were not committed Christians who did not have the spirit with directing a message directly to them what they needed to do to correct their (lost state)? Of course that would be foreign from his purpose, he would never neglect the opportunity. So what is the message from Paul reviling, he is comparing those in Rome to whom he was addressing the letter to those who are not of Christ, not in the Church, not of the faith of Abraham. And of course the verse following that you had previously supplied would not be true.
“Romans 1:7 And so I write to all of you in Rome whom God loves and has called to be his own people: May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.”
Called to be his own people. Are you still contending that those would be non-Christians.
Again you quote supposedly from scriptures which you will not identify,are you proud or disgusted with the translators? Should be Rom 8:10 Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Here is a case where you are contending that faith in Christ always brings salvation, this has been your theme. But, here salvation is not there even if they believe if the spirit is not there, and the verse here gives Christ the responsibility for placing that spirit in to the individual.
Larry said, “Oh, by the way you really have not applied much time in research of the scriptures about this Christian or follower of Christ who is a child of the devil, because that is an exact statement from Christ about Judas.”
Your answer is.
Judas was not a believer, he was a deceiver.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.”
Jesus said Judas did not believe from the beginning, He knew it was Judas was who would betray Him. Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil.
My answer is, Judas was a very good non-believer then. Not one of the other 11 Apostles were aware of his dis-belief, he was with them through the 3 or so years of Jesus teaching them, he was given responsibility to teach (even teamed up with other Apostles, none went alone) to teach something he did not believe so masterfully that there were responses from those being taught that were committing to a belief that he himself did not believe. He was among those who was given power to Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils. Continuing to read about Judas you should notice that, Satan entered into him, (something he allowed), after betraying the Lord, he believed so strongly that he was condemned that he took his own life. There were many of the Jews who had been involved with the killing of Jesus but there is not a record that any committed suicide because they felt condemned. As The Apostles began the process of selecting a replacement stated that Judas had fallen, can an individual fall from a place that they are never at? Why does the text identify a time frame when Satan entered into Judas if he was already a deceiver serving Satan? While he was a servant of Satan did Jesus really give him the same powers that the other Apostles received and did he promote Jesus while serving Satan with those powers?
Now, for the most important question, if the actions of Judas were really being performed while being a servant of Satan, how much trust should we place in teachers today? Can we really be sure which of our most respected teachers are not also deceivers?
(Mat 10:5 KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
(Mark 3:14 KJV) And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
(Mark 3:15 KJV) And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
(Mark 6:7 KJV) And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
(Luke 9:1 KJV) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
(Luke 9:2 KJV) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
(Mat 27:3 KJV) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
(Luke 22:3 KJV) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
(John 13:2 KJV) And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;
(John 13:26 KJV) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
(John 14:21 KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(Acts 1:16 KJV) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
(Acts 1:23 KJV) And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 KJV) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Larry said, “Again you quote supposedly from scriptures which you will not identify,are you proud or disgusted with the translators?”
I use different translations. You do realize that people around the world don’t read from the same translation as you. Many people can’t even get the translation you read, the translation they have is the only one they have to read.
Do you go on ranting sprees with everyone you talk to that doesn’t read from the same translation as you?
Larry said earlier, “Go ahead and read them in whatever translation you prefer, I believe the message will still teach the same result.”
You said the message in whatever translation is the same, so what’s the problem?
I don’t believe everyone at a church is saved. I believe every church has both saved people and lost people who are there. I believe in Romans Paul’s words were mainly to Christians but also had in mind, as we always should, that anyone there could be lost.
God gives us the Holy Spirit. Paul says when we believe in Christ He gives us the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. And Paul suggests there could be some there who had not received God’s Spirit.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Larry said, My answer is, Judas was a very good non-believer then.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.”
Jesus said Judas did not believe from the beginning, He knew it was Judas was who would betray Him. Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil.
Unlike the other disciples that called Jesus “Lord,” Judas never used this title for Jesus instead Judas would only go as far as “Rabbi”. Judas regarded Jesus to be a teacher but nothing more.
Judas was cunning and insincere. Judas puts skin to Matthew 7:22-23 “When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God’s message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles! Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!”
Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil and he ultimately was possessed by Satan Himself.
Even though Jesus knew what Judas would do, Jesus showed love and kindness to him. He treated him as He did the others. He still showed incredible humble love to Judas.
Jesus gave the perfect example of the Sermon on the Mount.
Matthew 5:43-48 You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and Hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, because he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not the tax collectors also do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing that is remarkable? Do not the Gentiles also do the same? Therefore you be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus showed His love to a morally sick man. Christ showed Judas courtesy and humility. Jesus allowed the tare among them to expose his own character.
Grace,
Why did Judas hang himself? As a non-believer he surely would not believe that he was saved. He was aware of all Jesus and the other 11 Apostles were teaching, in fact wasn’t he given the power to heal, and cast out devils? These verses say he was.
(Mark 3:14 KJV) And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
(Mark 6:7 KJV) And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
(Luke 9:1 KJV) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
So now this study really gets interesting. Notice, Jesus gives a non-believer power to portray his own power to non-believers attempting to persuade them to be believers. He participates united with other believers teaching, healing, and casting out devils all with the authority of Christ. Yet, he never believes himself. Could he have believed that he was saved because he had been given these powers? Surely, that would be a logical conclusion. It seems to me also a logical conclusion that Judas was fully convinced that he was saved. The reason that is so obvious is displayed by his actions when he became aware that he was condemned. Out of all who opposed Christ and participated in crucifying him Judas was the only one who killed himself.
You have done well as you compared him to the men in the following.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Luke 13:25 KJV) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Since you have connected these judgments upon the actions of Judas, and the only reason that you have identified for Judas’s rejection was being a non-believer or applied differently your conclusion must be he did not have faith, because according to your teaching Christ saves anyone who has faith. If Judas had faith he could not have been condemned, by your terminology.
I believe that the facts concerning Judas’s actions proves that he had faith that he was saved prior to betraying Jesus. After the act he also had faith that he was condemned.
Would it be very important here to observe that Judas understood that he was condemned by one act of disloyalty to Christ?
I had made the comment about how interesting this was becoming, I was contemplating many of the teachers, preachers, or some like to be called men of God who tout their connection with The Lord by being able to perform powerful miracles, healing, prophesying events etc:, could they really be receiving the same condemnation by Jesus as those you have led us to?
Would you be willing to state that these men did not have faith?
Is it possible to be saved if anyone has faith in Jesus and refuses to become obedient? Many believe or have faith in Jesus but will not serve him. Anyone who does not have faith or belief will readily deny God, Jesus, and all Christianity. Have you met people who do not serve The Lord that would reuse to deny him? What do you think their reasoning would be for refusing to deny him?
Grace,
Did Jesus really give Judas power to do something that he said could not be done?
Judas was cunning and insincere. Judas puts skin to Matthew 7:22-23 “When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God’s message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles! Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!”
Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil and he ultimately was possessed by Satan Himself.
Even though Jesus knew what Judas would do, Jesus showed love and kindness to him. He treated him as He did the others. He still showed incredible humble love to Judas.
(Mat 12:24 KJV) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mark 3:23 KJV) And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John identifies exactly when Satan entered into Judas. The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan. Can you prove otherwise?
(John 13:27 KJV) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
You have again upheld your reasoning for not identifying the source of your quotes other than book and chapter and verse.
To that I will explain my reasoning for never quoting a scripture without identifying its source so anyone can quickly and easily find the source, I would not desire that anyone imagine that I just paraphrasing a translation and editing it to suit my purpose. But, when I and many others have so many resources for searching translations and cannot find an exact duplication of your quote. What would you consider would enter our minds? Especially, observing your manipulation of our comments to a completely different concept than we have directed, sometimes you even miss-quote us.
Grace,
I became a victim to your pulling verses out context. I was attempting to try to integrate your message concerning John 6:64 using the view that you were portraying, which was as if it was a message from Jesus to the Apostles explaining to them that he was aware of some of them who did not believe and the he knew who it was who was going to betray him. I commented accordingly, but while searching for something far removed from that subject this verse came to view and the surrounding context.
Now, I believe that you should re-read and listen to the message that was written there. In fact, after providing the text for you I will lead you through the message as I see it.
(John 6:59 KJV) These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
First misconception, Jesus was not just speaking to the Apostles, as you implied.
Proof, verse 59 says, he was speaking in the synagogue at Capernaum, and there were many disciples there. Verse 66 many of those disciples rejected him. Verse 67 Then he addressed the Twelve, The Apostles and offered them the same opportunity.
Second misconception, Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning.
You implied that Jesus was not only identifying that he knew that Judas would betray him, which he did know, but you applied that Jesus was implying that Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning. Because you looked upon Judas with an understanding of his betrayal of Jesus, it became very easy to accept a greater amount of atrocities (being a non believer to him).
I had mentioned earlier that John identified at what time Satan entered into Judas. “John identifies exactly when Satan entered into Judas. The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan. Can you prove otherwise?
(John 13:26 KJV) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Luke also identified the same time frame.
(Luke 22:3 KJV) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
The conclusion would be that Judas was not an unbeliever as you had promoted. Therefore, my original objection to your commonly repeated statement would be true, Judas was a believer who believed he was saved who allowed Satan to enter into his life, through that act and the betrayal of Christ then he became condemned, when he realized that to be a fact he attempted to give the money back (we must assume he thought that would clear his being condemned, he must have seen this acquisition of money as the reason for which he betrayed Jesus). When they refused to accept the money he hanged himself.
This whole discussion began through many different comments referring to baptism being for believers for the purpose of being born again, they were lost prior to baptism and saved after.
You coined this phrase in an attempt to refute that being baptized saves.
Do you baptize children of the devil?
In my comment to you Nov 5, I picked up on that phrase and offered much explanation. In which you disagreed.
I said. You made a very informed observation. “Do you baptize children of the devil?”
You then began multiple repetitions of this phrase as if no one could give you an answer.
“Do you baptize children of the devil?”
By Nov 6 you had revised your question to this.
“So, you say a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.”
Your final rendering of this phrase was.
“You say (your theology is) a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.”
At least 27 times you re posted this.
Then on November 26 you offer a quote applying it to Judas which displays a complete answer to your own statement. “Judas was cunning and insincere. Judas puts skin to Matthew 7:22-23 “When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God’s message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles! Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!”
These men that Jesus is telling about definitely believed they were saved, so saved that they were doing mighty works in Jesus name. Jesus says that he never knew them and that is what counts.
These men thought Jesus knew them, so the conclusion it is not that the believer believes he knows Jesus that insures salvation, it is whether Jesus knows the individual that insures salvation.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Luke 13:25 KJV) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
There will be many on the Day of Judgment who believe they should be saved that will be cast out.
Do you not realize that those in the above verses are not serving Christ they have been deceived and are serving Satan just like you thought of Judas?
Man can only serve one of the two masters, either Christ or Satan. Not both at the same time.
Grace, I left this comment for you some time ago. I have copied it below:
I think it was FF Bruce that wrote that “baptism isn’t an optional extra.” None the less, I suppose there are some with a genuine saving faith that are un taught, poorly taught or something and they are confused about the issue. That is, if they think about it at all. Pilgrim’s Progress had a man named Little Faith and they are still with us today. Frequently I question myself as to whether I am a prime example. All of us were utterly, helplessly, hopelessly lost and Jesus saved us. period, End of story. I was baptised when I was 12 or 13 and I’m glad I was. However, there is no reason to go to war or carry on forever over a formula for salvation, at least not as it is generally waged on this issue.
Grace,
Do you beleive baptism is an “optional extra” for those that want it but it is fine to ignore if one chooses to do so? Do you intend to go to war or carry on forever over a formula for salvation?
These are simple question and you may answer with a simple yes or no. No response simply means you do not wish to participate with me in the conversation. Should that be the case I am out of here and you may carry on with the others – to no apparent avail other than hijacking Jay’s blog. That’s not a very Christ like thing to do and you know it. You are welcome to get your own blog if you have anything to say that is all that important
Hesed,
Randall
Larry said, “Why does the text identify a time frame when Satan entered into Judas if he was already a deceiver serving Satan?”
Do you believe everyone who doesn’t believe is possessed by a demon?
I believe there are people who have been possessed, but I don’t believe everyone who isn’t a believer has been possessed by a demon or Satan himself.
Judas could have done miracles, he had the power to heal and cast out demons. God can use anyone and anything, He even gave Balaam’s donkey the ability to speak.
Where does it say Judas received the Holy Spirit? When did the other disciples receive the Holy Spirit?
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.”
Judas wasn’t the only one who hadn’t believed, others of the twelve who had been following Jesus still hadn’t fully believed who Jesus is.
John 14:7-11 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him. Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us. Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.”
Some of the disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God in the flesh. They didn’t get that the Christ would be God who would come as a Man.
Jewish people knew they were waiting for the Messiah. But they didn’t have the concept of Who the Messiah would be. They were looking for the Messiah to come but didn’t get that He would be God in the flesh. Jesus had to teach the disciples Who He is, they had to learn.
Larry said, “I would not desire that anyone imagine that I just paraphrasing a translation and editing it to suit my purpose.”
Larry said, “Especially, observing your manipulation of our comments to a completely different concept than we have directed, sometimes you even miss-quote us.”
So, it’s being implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
And as for starting my own blog, anyone can start a blog. There are blogs people have started, but when people comment with a different view they get bent out of shape and shut the whole blog down. Or people have blogs and get hailed as some great theologian by others in their camp and so different views are seemingly less. But for me there are just too many other things to be done, so I’m okay with commenting and have no desire to start my own blog.
Larry said, “Jesus was not just speaking to the Apostles, as you implied.”
I never implied any such thing. And they weren’t called apostles yet.
Larry said, “I believe that the facts concerning Judas’s actions proves that he had faith that he was saved prior to betraying Jesus.”
Larry said, “The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan.”
Since you stated Judas believed and was not a servant of the devil, so then you don’t believe Judas was a child of the devil when he had faith in Jesus.
And so my questions are still here:
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Randall and Larry, It appears that Grace ask, but never answers of herself the questions that are asked of here. In this way she appears to know much, but shows less. I have asked questions, not to be answered on rituals, which she thinks are worthless and just works, and yet she won’t dare contemplate that Jesus himself was the ritual of sacrifice. She offers no answer to if this sacrifice of Jesus was just a ritual and a work or if it indeed had meaning and if this had meaning then why aren’t the rituals commanded by Jesus of the same worth.
She want answers of generalizations of the coC to indict the coC and thus the people associated with it, without accepting that the scriptures say what many in the coC follow…that faith and baptism is essential for salvation. Her goal isn’t to search the scriptures, but to condemn those who follow the scriptures as written. This is why she repeats the same questions over and over again.
Her theology on the child of the devil is that if someone believes in God, then they are not a child of the devil and yet James remarks that even the demons believe that God is indeed God and satan knew that Jesus was the Son of God when he tempted Him.
You cannot be saved and a sinner, or else you were never saved because you truly never believed. And yet Peter himself sinned and was confronted as such and yet was one of the oldest of the apostles and thus was a child of the devil just like Judas if we are to follow here line of reasoning. In fact all of the apostles abandoned Jesus at one point, so they must all then have been children of the devil, who Jesus had with him all of the time.
Grace causes grace to fail when sin comes in as they were never saved initially. Grace cannot work unless there is sin to work against. Rom.6 tells us grace is there when we sin and yet we are slaves to righteousness even then as we are not held under its power.
On November 25th at 11:28 a.m. I said, And it’s been said here that Jesus’ sacrifice can be considered a ritual, and I have no problem with that, His sacrifice is the ultimate and only ritual that can take away my sins.
I never said demons don’t believe there is a God and that Satan didn’t know that Jesus is the Son of God. I don’t believe demons have faith that Jesus’ sacrifice saved them.
James isn’t saying we do works to merit salvation. He is saying the good works we do are evidence of our faith.
James also says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
What is your point in re-posting information that has already been refuted, is it only to prove to all of us that you incapable of admitting that the scriptures can prove you wrong?
This communication with Grace has been an ongoing experience like none other I have encountered. The one item that has driven me to attempt to answer Grace’s questions or statements, has been to display before all of the readers how it is not always what is seen on the surface of the communications in scripture that is the most important message being conveyed. Many, many years ago I learned that in order to understand a message from scripture it is very important to determine who was doing the speaking, to whom was his message being directed, what was the content of the message, was that exact message applicable to us today or was there a principle involved that must be applied today.
Did you notice how Grace has expressed resentment that we might not fully accept her words as if they were God’s Words. When there are scriptures shown to her which fully contradict her message she just attacks the messenger and the message. I noticed that the Jews did the same to Jesus, he quoted from the prophets to them to allow them to connect with him but they refused to apply the prophesies and attacked Jesus and his message.
She really falls apart when we turn the tables and prove that the message that she was projecting is not correct with the text of scriptures,
Grace has communicated that she is offended that I might have implied, well let’s see her own words.
“So, it’s being implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture” I did not reproduce the balance of the statement because that was directed to another blogger.
In the following statement she miss-quotes me and attempts to distort the message in scripture at the same time.
“Larry said, “Why does the text identify a time frame when Satan entered into Judas if he was already a deceiver serving Satan?””
These were my comments that have been distorted.
First one, “John identifies exactly when Satan entered into Judas. The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan. Can you prove otherwise?”
(John 13:27 KJV) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.”
Second one, I had mentioned earlier that John identified at what time Satan entered into Judas. “John identifies exactly when Satan entered into Judas. The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan. Can you prove otherwise?
(John 13:26 KJV) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Luke also identified the same time frame.
(Luke 22:3 KJV) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
The conclusion would be that Judas was not an unbeliever as you had promoted.
Grace, you modified the structure of my total posting to indicate that I was the one who was attempting to portray the Judas was (already a deceiver serving Satan). I was pointing you to the fact that Judas was not (already a deceiver serving Satan).
Both John and Luke identify precisely the exact time when Satan entered into Judas.
Judas was just as saved as the other 11 prior to the time that he allowed Satan to enter into him. There were 12 of them addressed by Jesus, if 12 then Judas was there also in these verses.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
In verse 65 he finished speaking to the disciples at Capernaum then in verse 67 spoke to the Twelve who became known as Apostles.
Grace, you mentioned, “Larry said, “Jesus was not just speaking to the Apostles, as you implied.”” I never implied any such thing. And they weren’t called apostles yet.
Let’s let Matthew and Luke address that question.
Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Larry said, “I would not desire that anyone imagine that I just paraphrasing a translation and editing it to suit my purpose.”
Larry said, “Especially, observing your manipulation of our comments to a completely different concept than we have directed, sometimes you even miss-quote us.”
I don’t have any resentment, I just stated the attacks being thrown at me.
So, it’s being implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
Larry said, “Why does the text identify a time frame when Satan entered into Judas if he was already a deceiver serving Satan?”
Do you believe everyone who doesn’t believe is possessed by a demon?
I believe there are people who have been possessed, but I don’t believe everyone who isn’t a believer has been possessed by a demon or Satan himself.
Larry said, “Grace, you modified the structure of my total posting to indicate that I was the one who was attempting to portray the Judas was (already a deceiver serving Satan).”
You were using Judas to answer my question.
Larry said, “Oh, by the way you really have not applied much time in research of the scriptures about this Christian or follower of Christ who is a child of the devil, because that is an exact statement from Christ about Judas.”
But then Larry said later, “The proper conclusion would be that prior to that time Judas was not a servant of Satan.”
Since you stated Judas believed and was not a servant of the devil, so then you don’t believe Judas was a child of the devil when he had faith in Jesus.
And to the comment by Larry, “First misconception, Jesus was not just speaking to the Apostles, as you implied. Proof, verse 59 says, he was speaking in the synagogue at Capernaum, and there were many disciples there.”
And I said, I never implied any such thing. And they weren’t called apostles yet.
So then Larry said, “In verse 65 he finished speaking to the disciples at Capernaum then in verse 67 spoke to the Twelve who became known as Apostles.”
So we agree that they hadn’t been called apostles yet.
That Judas went out with them doesn’t mean he was a believer, I believe he went out with them for appearance sake.
Jesus said Judas did not believe from the beginning, He knew it was Judas who would betray Him.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.”
Jesus said that Judas was a devil. Judas was a deceiver as his father the devil.
John 6:70 “Then Jesus answered, I chose all twelve of you, but one of you is a devil.”
Jesus showed His love to a morally sick man. Christ showed Judas courtesy and humility. Jesus allowed the tare among them to expose his own character.
https://www.facebook.com/bobby.valentine.35/posts/10152365158570518
Hesed,
Randall
Repentant believers in Christ get baptized. Why? Some say, “To join a particular denomination? To fulfil all righteousness? Because it’s commanded, (however the command itself in actuality doesn’t really, truly, have to be obeyed – some compare it to, “love your neighbor”, sometimes you do, sometimes not so much, but it’s not a deal breaker).
What does the scripture say about baptism? It is into Christ, it is to become buried into his death and to be raised to become new, it is called being made alive with Christ. It is to put on Christ. It is to wash away sin. It is to be clothed with Christ. It is for or towards(in the direction of) forgiveness of sins. It is mentioned at the time of when a repentant sinner calls on the name of the Lord. When some in Acts 19 had a John the Baptist baptism , they had to immediately have a Baptism into Jesus “kind of baptism.”
People in the scriptures did some wacky things concerning baptism if it matters nada concerning their forgiveness, like being baptized in the late night hours and going back to sleep with your hair wet for the ladies. Strange. Like Lydia being baptized in a river(again, getting all wet with your clothes on(no baptismal garments handy). One man found a pool of water while traveling in a desert and couldn’t wait to take the plunge-again, why, if it matters nada concerning salvation? Maybe he just wanted to get cooled off. There wasn’t any church service or church to join. So, why? All that was preached to him was Jesus. Why freak out and pull off the side of the road, jump in the first mud hole you find and get all wet, if it matters so little? Again, strange, if it can be put off to a more convenient time. Hey! Here’s an idea! Maybe it can’t, or it at least, shouldn’t be?
One family is baptized by the Holy Spirit, they start speaking in tongues before Peter can finish speaking, and before any “glory to God and Hallelujah’s” can be said, the first thing Peter does is command they be baptized. Huh? What modern day preacher(other than in churches of Christ) would utter such a command, at such a moment as that? None, that I can think of, to be honest. But Peter did. Oh, and Peter is also the one who said baptism now saves you. Again, huh? Is Peter saying baptism is a work and we are saved by works? How silly. But is he saying baptism has nothing to do with salvation? Nonsense. Peter had no problem saying baptism saves us. All that has to be done now is to find out what he meant by that phrase.
Paul called baptism into Christ an operation (a work) of God (not man) in Colossians 2. How could we say, “it doesn’t matter one iota concerning salvation in the name of Jesus?” One way comes to mind. Calvinism.
Monty said, “How could we say, “it doesn’t matter one iota concerning salvation in the name of Jesus?” One way comes to mind. Calvinism.”
Dwight said earlier, “And to keep saying this is a coC thing is to not acknoledge that Martin Luther, John Welsey, John Calvin all believed in baptism as part of the plan of salvation and taught it.”
Oh well, Monty from what Dwight said, you’re a Calvinists.
Monty said, “and before any “glory to God and Hallelujah’s” can be said, the first thing Peter does is command they be baptized.”
Acts 10:46 “For they heard them speaking in strange tongues and praising God’s greatness…”
According to Luke they were praising God’s greatness when God accepted them as His. Luke recorded this was before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. The gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard as Luke recorded in Acts 10:44, that “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Larry, Dwight,
I appreciate the useful comments that you have posted on this thread. They are clear, concise, and understandable. It’s highly frustrating to attempt to have a conversation with someone who doesn’t show any inclination to converse. Grace has only proven that she is a adept at cutting and pasting the same thing over and over and over. That doesn’t count as honest discourse. I asked her numerous times to clarify a question, but she is loath to do so. My perception is that she would much rather ask a poorly phrased question and then claim a misguided “Gotcha” when no one answers. Very odd, indeed. Especially from someone who ostensibly claims the name “grace.”
WRT misquotes, this are not the first times that she has been publicly admonished for putting false words in others mouths.
I commend your Christian patience, gentlemen.
So, there’s nothing wrong with anyone attending your denomination repeating things, but no one else is supposed to do that, a common double standard.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. And it’s been said here that Jesus’ sacrifice can be considered a ritual, and I have no problem with that, His sacrifice is the ultimate and only ritual that can take away my sins.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given was Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, and then Judas Iscariot was used. None of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding ” of baptism, are saved.
There is only one person who said they agree with them. And I think it was commendable of Johnny. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
And it’s being implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
“Site rules: * No judging motives. No personal invective. No personal insults.”
I’ll be praying that Christians learn to sacrifice our human pride and display an attitude of humility that helps to bring unity.
Grace, my comment concerning Acts 10 was concerning Peter and the rest of the Jews who came with him. Yes, Cornelius and family were praising God, however, Peter and his men were seemingly in shock. There is no record of them rejoicing right away, but the first thing out of Peter’s mouth was, “Who can forbid baptism?” You’d have to admit this is a surprise statement if what you teach is true. Why didn’t Peter and his buddies hug and welcome them into the family? Why go straight to baptism? This doesn’t fit in with your teaching. Neither does any of the several scenarios the Bible gives that I pointed out to you. Why take the plunge at midnight? While driving down the highway and get giddy when you see a pond? Why get rebaptized when you already had a baptism, If it doesn’t mean anything? Obviously the people who received baptism in scripture placed a somewhat higher degree of importance on it than you, don’t you think?
I have never said baptism isn’t meaningful to Christians. After Jesus saved me, I was excited to be baptized, it is a beautiful picture symbolizing what my Savior had done for me. And when I and my brothers and sisters were in Israel at the Jordan River it was very meaningful to us to be baptized there. We all were excited, anytime any of us does something good we are happy for each other.
People were being executed if they were a Christian. When people converted believing Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that they had converted to being a Christian could be used as grounds for execution, so of course there were times the apostles would have the new converts safety in mind, that they baptized people at late night hours seems rather smart to me. We don’t have people looking to arrest and execute us as they did and as some Christians still do who live in other countries, it was a reality they had to deal with that you and I don’t. And many times the apostles baptized them then knowing they had to leave the next day. There were times the apostles ate the Lord’s Supper at night and I don’t think that was strange no more than I think someone being baptized at night is strange.
Acts 20:7-8 “On the first day of the week, we gathered with the local believers to share in the Lord’s Supper. Paul was preaching to them, and since he was leaving the next day, he kept talking until midnight. The upstairs room where we met was lighted with many flickering lamps.”
I don’t believe being baptized as salvic just as eating and drinking the Lord’s Supper isn’t salvic. Some people believe the bread and wine are literally changed to the actual body and blood of Jesus. They believe both baptism and the Lord’s Supper as salvation issues.
John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
I don’t believe Peter was surprised about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit.
The Jews and Samaritans despised each other. Jews had no dealings with Samaritans. Yet, Peter and John were pretty concerned that the Samaritans hadn’t received the Holy Spirit that they traveled there to pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
Peter’s heart was changed toward the Gentiles the day before he went to meet Cornelius and the others. When the Gentiles came to ask Peter to come to Cornelius’, Peter invited them in to stay with him and lodged them for the night, lodged them is to “entertain as a guest.” Peter had Gentiles stay the night with him and he entertained them as welcomed guests. Acts 10:23
God had already changed Peter’s heart that people cannot be ritually clean. Peter explained this to Cornelius when they met, Acts 10:28 “He said to them, You yourselves know very well that a Jew is not allowed by his religion to visit or associate with Gentiles. But God has shown me that I must not consider any person ritually unclean or defiled.”
Peter didn’t say, boy I’m sure glad God gave them the Holy Spirit first so I would baptize them. Peter saw they believed and knew we are to baptize those who believe in Jesus and told them to be baptized.
God didn’t accept them so the Jews would accept them, that would be a small god. God accepted them regardless of how many Jews would like it. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles heard, Acts 10:34-43. They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 15:7-8.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:7-9.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
I copied this from an article by John Mark Hicks: http://wineskins.org/2014/11/27/mercy-over-sacrifice-the-missing-principle-in-muscle-and-a-shovel/
Mercy over Sacrifice: The Missing Principle in Muscle and a Shovel
27 November, 2014
Published by John Mark Hicks in Re-examining How We Read the Bible
Baptism, for example, should be understood as a mode of relational transformation. It is a means by which God encounters us, shapes us, transforms us, and engages us in the story of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection. We should not turn it into a legal technicality. When baptism becomes an absolute and technical “line in the sand,” then we have transformed it into something God never intended. We reduce God’s transforming work to a legal detail as if the whole of God’s work in a person’s life stands or falls on this one command. Indeed, when baptism becomes a legal watershed that divides the world between those who can “go to heaven” and those who cannot, we exalt baptism over transformation. When we exalt the means over the end we turn baptism into a legal technicality rather than a mode of divine transformation.
Randall, the scriptures all point towards salvation after baptism so baptism isn’t just a legalistic task, but a significant point in the conversion into a Christian, after all they are buried with Christ and raised anew. The Ethipian eunuch stopped the chariot and asked, “What keeps me from being baptized?”, then he was and went on his way rejoicing. The transforming quality was in why and what and he did. Baptism is all about mercy in that Jesus died for us by sacrificing himself and He desires for us to die to the world and be born again as a child of God. If baptism was such a ritual, then the first baptsim for Apollos would and should have been enough, but Paul made it clear that being dipped in water wasn’t enough and it alone wasn’t enough, but Apollos had to be baptized into Christ (not John). So the whole point of baptism isn’t baptism, but Christ.
It is not about the act, but acting in Jesus for Jesus through Jesus buried with Jesus in Jesus.
It is the end of the journey for the lost and the beginning of the journey for the saved.
To the worldly it might look like a dip in the water, but to the spiritual it should feel like a release.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
If you have to post 15-16 verses every time to get your point across maybe that should tell you something. Besides that, baptism into Christ is not in argument against any of those verses you listed(obviously you believe they are) or any other NT verse(s). However, the way you believe(as shown by your posts) pits belief against baptism into Christ. The two mesh as one, when properly understood. I’m amazed that you think the Eunuch wanted to pull off the road and get baptized because he thought it was a “beautiful picture.” Same for the Philippian jailor and his family at midnight, I don’t believe a beautiful picture was on their minds. More like being saved.
I have never said baptism isn’t meaningful to Christians. After Jesus saved me, I was excited to be baptized, it is a beautiful picture symbolizing what my Savior had done for me.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Randall,
I’ve read a lot of articles by JMH. I appreciate his work, but I don’t always agree. This is probably one of those areas in which I tend to disagree with him.
I understand the reluctance to accept the essentialist of baptism when it is framed in terms of a legal technicality, but I have often wondered…did we turn it into a legal technicality or did God? Faith is a line in the sand. Repentance is a line in the sand. Perhaps baptism is too. We have seen this from God before, so lines in the sand are not that peculiar. I wonder what happened to those Israelites who did not follow the instructions in Ex 12:22…and you know there had to have been some who didn’t comply. I also wonder about those who did not have the opportunity to gaze upon the brazen serpent. It seems as it both of these sets of instructions were lines in the sand, so we have precedent. Hey, I would absolutely be thrilled it none of these examples are lines in the sand, to include baptism…a lot of family hasn’t been baptized (both living and deceased). The preponderance of the evidence, ISTM, points towards essentiality.
Kevin, I don’t think baptism is neccessarily a line in the sand, but a point in the soul of following without knowing everything….it called response to a command by God. You are right in that for those who followed God….Abraham when God said “Get out of your land….” would we be looking at Abraham as a father of faith if he refused to do what God said. Or in offering Isaac as a sacrifice? Or Gideon in marching around Jericho? We do know what happened to those who did refused to do simple, doable things…Saul was slammed for not destroying all of the people as God commanded…Moses was slammed for not speaking to the rock for water….etc. The one thing I know is it is crazy to argue against something so doable for the reasons Jesus said. By faith we believe and do.
Dwight,
I largely concur.
Grace,
I don’t read your posts anymore, but as I scrolled past this one, I couldn’t help but notice the same old cut & paste job that is so prevalent in your communication style. Absolutely nothing new here. I suspect the entire post is but a conglomeration of ad nauseum repetitive posts. In fact, I briefly saw the same poorly phrased question that has puzzled at least three different posters, all of which mentioned their confusion. Despite repeated attempts to gain clarification, you have steadfastly refused. That in itself is odd on a Christian blog…things that make you go, hmm?
In the words of Emerson, “What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.” I’d love to have a discussion, but it has to be honest and a two-way endeavor. None of us are seeing that from you. Sorry.
Reading many of the other comments they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said. So, there’s nothing wrong with anyone attending your denomination repeating things, but no one else is supposed to do that, a common double standard.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. And it’s been said here that Jesus’ sacrifice can be considered a ritual, and I have no problem with that, His sacrifice is the ultimate and only ritual that can take away my sins.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given was Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, and then Judas Iscariot was used. None of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
There is only one person who said they agree with them. And I think it was commendable of Johnny. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Example, please.
Just read the comments that have been posted the past month by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
So, you made a specious assertion, you didn’t think anyone would call you on it, you can’t, in fact, prove said assertion, so now you are back-tracking. We get it.
The comments are all there and anyone can read them. And I can see reading many of the comments by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.
I don’t expect you to accuse those from the CofC denomination of the things which have been thrown at me, that would be naive of me to think you would.
It’s been implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Concerning JMH’s article on baptism:
I think he’s both right and wrong. He’s right in the sense that some can press the baptism issue too far, as in any case with any teaching perhaps. Some make it where a big toe sticking out of the water voids the baptism(how silly). Some falsely wrongly believe the preacher has to say ritualistic words over the person about to be baptized(“for the remission of sins”). Is that a correct thing to say? Sure it is. Does it mean the baptism is voided,if not said? Of course not! Do we have to form a convoy of cars and surround someone’s car who is going to be baptized in the nearby creek so that they don’t get in a car wreck on the way and die, before baptism, and effectively not be saved? Now that is law over mercy.
But on the other hand, isn’t baptism a line in the sand? Was what the high priest prescribed to do on the day of atonement, before and as, he went into the Holy of Holies a line in the sand? Would a cavalier attitude be accepted? Were people considered “in the church” in the first century church who had not been baptized? Were they considered saved, exclusive of baptism? Baptism was always commanded, and never delayed, if water was available. Can’t we practice the same?
There has to be a balance. The thief on the cross was saved. But had he lived, would he not have had to show repentance in his life? Could he have continued to be a thief and believe when he died he would be with Jesus in paradise? If you believe he could, then that is extreme mercy over sacrifice, is it not? That is hyper-Calvinism which millions believe.
To get rid of baptism, you can’t just assail it head on. Like anything else, it’s usually the frog in the warm water approach. There are extreme’s on both sides of baptism. Let’s just allow the scriptures to say, what baptism is for and what it accomplishes. Let’s command it of believers(that’s theologically correct and safe-is it not?) and let us not say any more or any less about it.
Because some men didn’t understand(hyper-legal mindset) that if it was scriptural to help a neighbor get his ox out of a ditch(a valuable animal) and save his life on the Sabbath, that it was right to do good for another human being on the Sabbath without breaking it. However, that didn’t nullify the command to stone those who willingly, blatantly, desecrated the day.
I have no desire to stone someone who misunderstands the importance of baptism, but neither am I willing to teach it as a “nice thing to do”,( if that’s what you believe you should do), in order to be more politically correct.To over-emphasize it is wrong and so is taking away the command for believers to obey.
Some believe sin offerings and animal sacrifices saved people in the Hebrew Scriptures, they believe the law saved people back then. I disagree, I believe the law was showing them they needed a Savior.
The sacrifices and sin offerings did not give forgiveness of sins, they only prefigured as an antitype of the One who takes away our sins.
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Romans 3:20 Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what sin is.
People couldn’t keep the law perfectly, they needed a Savior.
Paul had followed the law, yet he was the chief of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15
Peter said in Acts 15:10, “Why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”
The Pharisee sought to keep God’s law as righteousness and went down to his house not justified. Luke 18:9-14
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
His act of sacrifice is the only perfection that I can stand before my God as innocent.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Monty, I think you are right in that anything and I mean anything can be taken past its point of application and reason to create another set of laws. There are some, and when I say some I mean some I know that focus on baptism, even though they do profess in believing faith as the precursor and neccessary. To add insult to injury is when we place on our counters at the building a flyer on “Baptism”, which makes it appear that baptism is all that is needed. Sometimes we are our own worse enemy in presenting things. It should be notable to us that Peter said nothing about faith or baptism until the people were convicted and convinced of Jesus, then they reacted in faith and baptism. I used to think that faith and baptism saved, but know I know that Jesus saves and that these other things are an important response to Jesus in the salvation process since Jesus put them in place for us to do. If they are important to God, then they should be important to us for the reason He says. We have to bend our will to God’s will in all things and not just in the things we want to do anyway.
I believe being baptized is something Christians should do. After Jesus saved me, I was excited to be baptized, it is a beautiful picture symbolizing what my Savior had done for me.
I don’t believe we baptize lost people, we baptize believers, a person who has been converted, their heart and mind has been changed, there has been an inward regeneration. A lost person cannot be a convert, no conversion has happened, there has been no change to the person’s existing state.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace said, “Just read the comments that have been posted the past month by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.”
“The comments are all there and anyone can read them. And I can see reading many of the comments by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.”
See Prov 6:16-17.
Your comments are bordering on sinful. I reviewed the posts, and I can’t find the examples to which you refer.
Can you provide the evidence? Yes or no?
The comments are all there and anyone can read them. And I can see reading many of the comments by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.
I don’t expect you to accuse those from the CofC denomination of the things which have been thrown at me, that would be naive of me to think you would.
It’s been implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
“Site rules: * No judging motives. No personal invective. No personal insults.”
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
I can’t find them. Can you point them out?
You are too funny! 😀
The comments are all there and anyone can read them. And I can see reading many of the comments by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.
I see many comments by people from the CofC denomination that are the same things they’ve already said, they just put a variety of different spins on it.
I don’t have any problem with anyone who repeats what they believe on here. I just simply comment what I believe. If you don’t like how someone comments you can quit having a discussion with them.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
You have asked that last question 43 times. 43 different times. Obviously, it is important to you; otherwise you wouldn’t ask it so much. The question is not hard IF we know what you have in mind. I can answer that question at least a dozen different ways, probably more. But I don’t know what you mean. Nor does three other posters.
You first asked the question on 10 Nov at 0834.
You repeated it six additional times.
Dwight expressed some confusion on 11 Nov.
You repeated the same question seven more times.
Larry expressed confusion on 20 Nov.
You repeated the question five more times. Often with an accompanying, “Still waiting.”
I expressed confusion on 23 Nov.
You nevertheless repeated the question four more times.
I continued to ask for clarity.
You repeated the question 20 more times. No clarification as to what you mean by “COC understanding” or “COC general understanding.”
Sure one person answered. One. Three others were confused. Think Napoleon’s Corporal when you are only reaching 25%.
If the question means that much to you, and apparently it does based on the 43 times that you have asked it & as recently as the above post yesterday, why won’t you explain what you mean? There is no ulterior motive here. Providing clarity doesn’t render the question moot.
I would love to answer it if I only knew what you mean by “CoC general understanding.” If I know what you mean, the answer is simple. I have lived in 11 different states, multiple times in five of those. I’ve lived overseas six times. I have traveled to 23 different countries. Consequently, I have visited lots and lots of lots of Churches of Christ and Baptist Churches. Lots. And I can tell you, there is no such thing as a COC understanding or COC general understanding. We are all over the map, from far right to far left and everything in between. Ask 10 people in 10 different locations, and you will likely get as many answers.
So, again, the question is not hard to answer once the reader knows what you mean by general understanding.
Does understanding mean that the person must know that baptism is for/IOT forgiveness of sins?
Does understanding mean that the person does not need to know that baptism is for/IOT forgiveness of sins?
Does understanding mean that the person just wanted to obey God and didn’t know all the aspects of baptism?
Does understanding mean immersion only?
Does understanding mean “100% submerged or it didn’t count”?
Does understanding mean that baptism only counts once a person reached the age of accountability & anything prior is just getting wet?
Does understanding mean that the person was baptized just to enter the X church?
Does understanding mean that the person made the good confession?
Does understanding mean that the person didn’t need to make the good confession?
Does understanding mean that the baptizer mentioned certain verbiage?
Does understanding mean that the baptizer didn’t need to mention anything?
I have visited congregations among the COC (and some Baptists) where people discussed each one of these. And there are many, many other potential understandings. Define what YOU mean by understanding, and the answers that you seek will come rapidly.
I have tried to answer her questions and have asked questions only to have the same questions asked of me over and over again from her. From what I gather Grace is trying to get us to come to her understanding of things without reconciling scripture that is presented to her. She wants her answer to indict everyone even though not everyone may have exactly the same answer or the standard coC answer (whatever that is) and definitly are not in agrement with her. As I have said most in the coC and other places as well understand that baptism (as well as faith) is needed for salvation, some think of it as a step, some don’t, but they all agree that it is vitaly important because Jesus says it is and the apostles carried this forward. Then there is Apollos who was re-baptized because he was baptized into John and not Christ (the reason that saves). Grace doesn’t want to reconcile with what Jesus said and what the apostles did and what is recorded, but she wants us to reconcile with what she repeately says again and again. Faith only is a narrow view, James 2 says, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
James isn’t saying we do works to merit salvation. He is saying the good works we do are evidence of our faith, he is speaking about showing our faith to others.
James also says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Dwight says my faith is a narrow view.
My faith is in Jesus Christ alone. Jesus’ sacrifice is the only perfection that I can stand before my God as innocent. His sacrifice is sufficient.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
The reply given to this was that Jesus was no longer able to forgive people, and I don’t see any Scripture that says Jesus was no longer able to forgive people. And it’s been said here that Jesus’ sacrifice can be considered a ritual, and I have no problem with that, His sacrifice is the ultimate and only ritual that can take away my sins.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
The reply given was Scriptures about demons knowing who Jesus is, and then Judas Iscariot was used. None of the Scriptures had to do with a person who has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him to be a child of the devil.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Grace, there is a general understanding of your theology built into other groups, so are you a follower of that group or of Christ? Your understanding of “faith only” follows many baptist, many Lutherans, etc, so which one are you? I can ask the very same question you ask here in regards to your understanding following the Lutheran understanding. But you might deny it saying you follow Christ, but that is not what your theology seems to indicate. Most of the groups that believe in your theology have written creeds that argue for faith only, so you must be aligned with them in your beleif.
Grace, And yes you do follow a narrow view. James 2 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” this places faith and works in the same cart in regards to justifying a person, but you somehow make faith the only thing and works as a minor thing and the scriptures you give reflect that.
Peter never “proclaimed” the gentiles as saved when they had faith, but proclaimed that they too were worthy of salvation, then they were baptized. Jesus places faith and baptism together in regards to salvation. To ignore Jesus own words is to ignore Jesus as the word.
So you twist the scriptures around to get to your narrow view of faith only and disregard other scriptures. And still haven’t dealt with the fact that faith is in itself a work…Gal.5:6, I Thess.1:3 and 2 Thess.1:11 and James “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” Faith is imperfect and imcoplete without works. Faith and Works!
I know brothers and sisters who attend Baptist and Lutheran churches, and they’re wonderful people who love the Lord and others!
James isn’t saying we do works to merit salvation. He is saying the good works we do are evidence of our faith, he is speaking about showing our faith to others.
James also says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul disagrees with you. He says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter disagrees with you. He says the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
I am not Johnny. You asked me this question, and I am asking for clarity / greater understanding of exactly what you are asking. I am eager to answer; I just need to know what you are looking for.
Are you, as a Christian woman, going to help me or not?
Hi Grace
You already know I believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. I also believe there is no good reason to neglect the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper. Plain and simple do you believe these ordinances are optional or things that all Christians should observe/participate in? A simple yes or know will suffice. I would simply want to know what you think and a straight answer would be appreciated. .
Hesed, Randall
Again you did not answer whether you are ascribing to the Lutheran or Baptist understanding of salvation by faith? Fair is fair.
You give a strange interpretaion of James who says, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” It appears James is referrring to people like you who place faith above works, while James is saying “not by faith only”, but “justified by works” as well.
Then he says, “Faith without works is dead.”, meaning not alive and active.
In regards to “Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it. James is speaking of them showing partiality, which was sinful thing to do. They might have been having an assembly, but they were not showing love to all.
Again the gift of the Holy Spirit wasn’t proof of salvation, but proof of God’s power and God’s approval. The direct qoute of Jesus is, “He who believes and is baptised shall be saved.” This means that any other scenario, such as just beleiving or just baptism doesn’t save, which is why Jesus follows up with “he who believes not shall be damned.” When you disregard Jesus direct statement, you disregard Jesus.
Just tacking on the same things in the middle or end doesn’t answer the questions being asked of you or the things you haven’t addressed.
This is a tack on to the above concept…Numb.22 has the donkey of Balaam speaking to Balaam, presumabely by the power of the Holy Spirit (of God), so this must mean that the donkey was saved or at least Godly. If the gift of the HS is proof of salvation or of being right with God, then the donkey was assuredly right with God. You might argue that this only applies to people and yet here we have a donkey performing a gift. One scripture you have yet to produce is a scripture saying that the Holy Spirit is a proof of salvation or is a precursor to salvation. But you can find scriptures that talk of faith and baptism in relation to salvation. Even in Acts 2 Peter says, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Whether the gift of the HS is a miraculous gift or the HS itself, Peter states that it only comes after repenting and baptism. This applied to 5000 souls that were saved. While it is true Cornelius was overcome with the HS, it obviously doesn’t mean they were saved. Then we must see Baalam;s donkey who was inspired as well.
Baptism is faith expressing itself in obedience to Jesus’ command. Baptism is not faith plus something extra. For by faith, Noah built an ark. The building of the ark(was a direct command from God). “Noah obeyed God and built an ark to the saving of his house.” Question: Does Noah have faith without building the ark? The answer is, of course, No! Did Noah save himself because he built the ark? In one sense no and in another sense, yes. No, in the sense that most people will argue against baptism, in that God is the Savior, not man. Noah didn’t save himself in the sense of earning salvation by building the ark. Neither does man earn anything by submitting to the Lord’s command to be baptized. Noah was saved by grace, as anyone who is saved, is saved by grace, and not of merit. But in the second sense, Noah did build the ark by faith, and because he did, it saved him and his family. He, in essence, did what Peter admonished those on Pentecost to do, “Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” Some on here would take exception to Peter’s exhortation: “Excuse me Peter but man cannot save himself! ” To which Peter would probably say, “Duh!”
We cannot save ourselves in any meritorious sense. However, when God tells us what to do to be saved(by his grace)and we comply, that is faith. BY faith when Abram was told to leave his home country, he left. That’s faith. Jesus of course said, Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do the things I say do. Well Jesus if I do the things you say do, then won’t I be really saving myself? See where Calvinism has brought us?
Grace,
I seldom come here anymore as its the same old arguing the same things that I have heard for 70 plus years with no satisfactory conclusion by all the COC.
Good thing is we will be judged by God individually by our deeds.
My conclusion from life experiences seeing many die and in their final time stating their belief in Jesus and having baptism desired but not possible due to sickness, incarceration, or foxhole, I believe those will be excepted and will go to heaven for that belief alone.
Not the popular teaching and when stated to many COC preachers they preached that any like I described should of thought of that before they got in that state and because they couldn’t now be baptized were certainly burning in hell. Even heard that at funerals of those I described from the preacher standing in front of the casket pointing backward and begging those in the audience to come forward and be baptized or if funeral was most likely in a another religious persuasion or funeral home, follow us back to our church building or to the creek or lake.
I believe being baptized and eating the Lord’s Supper are things Christians should do.
I don’t believe being baptized as salvic just as eating and drinking the Lord’s Supper isn’t salvic. Some people believe the bread and wine are literally changed to the actual body and blood of Jesus. They believe both baptism and the Lord’s Supper as salvation issue
John 6:53-54 Jesus said to them, For sure, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has life that lasts forever. I will raise him up on the last day.
I don’t believe we baptize lost people, we baptize believers, a person who has been converted, their heart and mind has been changed, there has been an inward regeneration. A lost person cannot be a convert, no conversion has happened, there has been no change to the person’s existing state.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. Paul says God only accepts us because we have faith in Jesus.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Hi Grace
You provided a lengthy reply which addressed a lot of stuff i didnt ask about. You did say you think Christians should participate but don’t save. I NEVER suggested they did. So if we should observe them is there ANY good reason to neglect baptism? Is baptism ever optional other than a situation where it is just impossible? If you care to reply I would appreciate a straightforward and concise answer without all the additional verbage. Is baptism optional for a Christian? Hesed, Randall
Eph.2:8 is really misunderstood “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” Grace is the gift of God, but salvation comes through faith as the conduit, but this doesn’t mean that once you have faith you are at the end of the road. Which would be like saying that Abraham was at the end of God accepting him because he beleived in God, but did nothing to act upon that faith. God waited to see the faith in action, before approving him. James makes the point that works completes faith, like land on the other side complete a bridge in purpose. Faith requires trust and trust requires acting on that faith. Faith is a product of man towards God. Only grace comes by God and not by faith or by works, but faith in the grace that only God supplies saves and for to be saving faith it must work. This is why Apollos had to be reimmersed, as he didn’t have faith in Jesus, but in John. Rom.12:6 “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;” The Gifts were of God’s Grace, but Faith is ours in the Use of the gifts.
Dwight,
I completely concur: the gift of the Holy Spirit wasn’t proof of salvation. There are many example of people (even an animal) being filled with the Spirit but not enjoying a reconciled relationship with God.
-In I Sam 19:23-24, the Holy Spirit fell on Saul. Not exactly a man who was striving to walk with God (i.e. I Sam 16:14).
-In Num 22, Balaam prophesied via a miraculous manifestation of God, yet Peter states that Balaam was a lover of the wages of unrighteousness with a reservation with the gloom of utter darkness (2 Pet 2:15-17). Not saved.
-Further, in the same chapter, the Lord fell on Balaam’s donkey, enabling it to miraculously speak. Is the donkey saved?
In Luke 1:44, John the Baptist leaped for joy while in the womb. Are we to believe that John was saved before being born and never experienced a separation from God due to sin throughout his life?
In John 11, Caiaphas the High Pries prophesies. Caiaphas certainly wasn’t a follower of Jesus.
Grace,
I think you overlooked my request. As a Christian, are you going to assist me or not?
Randall, I am going to answer before Grace does even though you ask it of Grace. Until you are baptized into Christ, you are not a Christian. This is one of the points of baptism…buried in Christ and raised anew. Faith and Baptism puts us into a relationship with Christ because we do through what Christ did in a figurative sense. Christ died for us, so why shouldn’t we die in the flesh and be born again in the Spirit for Him. According to Jesus Mark 16:16 “Belief and baptism for the remission of sins.” The eunuch wanted to be baptized as soon as he saw water, so he felt the urgency of his need. Now could a person on the way to baptism die and see Jesus still? Probably, God will judge our intents as well, but a person who disregards baptism will be judged in thier intent as well too as not wanting to do what God said to do despite being told what and why. We show out willfulness in not bowing to God’s simple desire by our actions. Adam and Eve were not condemned until they ate of the tree.This is a good God who will not condemn us until he sees sin at work, but for some reason we expect less in relation to His salvation in regards to faith.
Wow, Kevin you exceed my thought with more scriptures than I could have possibly thought of. Great.
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:13 appears to tell us that unlike in previous times that the Holy Spirit would move for periods of time and for specific reasons, in the New Testament the indwelling of the Spirit seals us marking us as Christ’s. Most of my friends in other churches as well as the CoC agree on this point. That receipt of the Spirit is the marker of being in Christ. The disagreement is when that seal is applied, my Baptist friends and my CoC friends tend to disagree by 30 feet, the distance from the front of the church to the baptistry. All agree that baptism is the next step after profession. I find the arguments tedious, make a profession of faith and be baptized as soon as possible. Begin the new life empowered by the Spirit, love your brothers, serve your King.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Is the Scripture James quotes just to be used in the assembly or is the Scripture to be applied to our lives in general?
Matthew 22:37-3937 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Do you believe you never fail to love all other people? And has every Christian always given to those they see in need?
And I don’t believe Balaam’s donkey received the Holy Spirit. I believe God put on Balaam’s donkey the ability to speak.
The promised Holy Spirit hadn’t even been given yet.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul disagrees with you. He says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter disagrees with you. He says the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
I think you tried to answer everyone at once in a single post, but you overlooked my request.
I am asking Christian to Christian. Are you going to help me?
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him. I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Grace,
Is that for me or someone else? I think someone else because it doesn’t answer anything.
I am asking for your help to understand the hope that is in you. Perhaps if I understood what you mean, I could better understand grace and Jesus.
Are you willing to help?
Grace, You still haven’t answered my question, even though you are using my answer in an attempt to make a point, which isn’t there. Do you are ascribe to the Lutheran or Baptist understanding of salvation by faith? I have said that there is a general concensus among those of the coC that baptism with faith saves by the grace that God has given. The Holy Spirit is never linked with salvation the way faith and baptism is and you haven’t provided a scripture that states this. Do please move on from that. It is not a creed that the coC follow unlike some other groups that have thiers written down as the established doctrine to be taught in all congregations.
NKJ Rom.8:16 “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,”
YLT “The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;”
CJB “The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God.”
I could not find any common translation where the HS “speaks to our heart and tells us that we really are God’s children”, thus you are digging for what you want out of the scriptures.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
As I said, there are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.
And if it’s not good enough for some, I’m sorry.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him.Thank you Johnny!
I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Johnny, You make an astute thought “All agree that baptism is the next step after profession. I find the arguments tedious, make a profession of faith and be baptized as soon as possible. Begin the new life empowered by the Spirit, love your brothers, serve your King.”
What we find in the scriptures is Jesus telling the apostles how to save others, “Believe and be baptised will be saved”, then we find the apostles teaching the masses of Christ (death and sacrifice), where they are convicted in their hearts and ask what to do next, “Repent and be baptized.” And they did. They surely at that point in time didn’t wonder if they were saved at the moment they went in or came up from baptism and didn’t argue about faith and baptism, they just had it and did it and then went on there merry way in Christ. We make this harder than it should be. I beleive that if the Baptist beleive that Christ is the way and they are baptized, then they understand that they are saved, just like the coC and others do, while they might have a different understanding of when it happens. This unfortunately has become another point for division.
Grace,
So, you don’t have any desire to assist a Christian that is requesting help?
Are you saying you understand the language better than the translations? So whatever translation I post that doesn’t agree with your theology you will just say it’s no good. Really?
So you say these translations are no good:
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
I wonder how many people around the world read the translation you have? You better get busy getting the translation you use to people around the world, don’t they know you’re the one who understands it better than the translations!
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
After trying to talk scripture to Grace, I am going to be much relieved when I go home and talk to my brick wall. I think I will have less frustration.
God bless you Grace. I am through writing different things and posting different scriptures and asking pointed questions only to be met by the same questions as if no one has tried, within the limits of the obscure questions, to give an answer. You wish not to hear and respond to the thoughts within the limits of other given pertinent scriptures and then use any version of the scriptures you can find to agree with your point. Conversations should progress and not stagnate. You will not find any agreement unless it is on your particular terms in line with your own particular thought, even when being told many different thoughts by differnt people that don’t always agree with one another on everything, but usually coming back to the same thing…faith and baptism…commanded by Jesus, done by the apostles…don’t argue with the master.
Grace,
You said: “You have Peter baptizing unbelievers.”
Not quite. Peter never baptized unbelievers. Read Acts 11. Luke records that Peter “began and explained it to them in order.” Chapter 11 is a more orderly and chronological account of the events than chapter 10, specifically with respect to the Spirit and God’s acceptance of the Gentiles. The entire episode is less about showing us an example of conversion and more about the acceptance of Gentiles. The difficulty of accepting Gentiles is something that we have a hard time understanding in the 21st century. 1st century Jews were highly, highly prejudicial. Overcoming prejudice and granting acceptance is the narrative. Just think about the number of times that Peter, one of Jesus’ inner circle, has to explain himself. See N.T. Wright’s Christian Origins & Question of God 1.
Scripture frequently avoids a chronological recording. We see that in both the OT and NT. Just one of the differences between the Eastern mind and the Western mind. See Ray Vander Laan.
If you were to create a harmony of Acts, here is how it would broadly look wrt C:
-C. is unsaved in 11:14.
-HS falls in 11:15.
-Peter and witnesses are convinced that Gospel is for Gentiles too in v11:16-17 which equates to roughly 10:34
-Peter then shared the word as per 10:34-43
-Then C was baptized.
BTW, Grace, you seem to be avoiding my request. Are you going to follow in the footsteps of Priscilla & Aquila and teach someone the way of God more perfectly, or are you going to continue to evade the request? I am asking for your help. Perhaps I will better understand you and your position, which could lead to a greater understanding of Jesus and grace. Ready whenever you are.
You want to change it to say they received the Holy Spirit then they heard the word. Luke says they “heard” the word then they received the Holy Spirit.
You make up a story that isn’t what Luke said.
Luke said “all who heard the word” received the Holy Spirit.
According to Luke they “heard” the gospel before they were given the Holy Spirit. Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43, if Peter didn’t get to speak these words Luke would not have written them. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit, Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
No, I’d rather just review all the scripture on the subject rather than just strip a few phrases out of the overall context.
I am not going to convince you; you are not going to convince me. I’m good with that.
By the way, I noticed that you did not honor my request. Does your silence mean that you don’t care to assist other Christians in need of spiritual development? Sure seems that way based on your steadfast refusal.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
There are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times to try to clarify. And I’m sorry that they are having difficulty with it.
They won’t say whether they agree or disagree with them that people who are baptized, even though not under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, are saved.
Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.
I’m not from the CofC denomination so surely they know their theology better than I.
So I have changed my question several times to try to clarify and Dwight has commented about their general understanding. If that’s not good enough for some, I’m sorry.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him.
I personally know people from the CofC denomination who have this unity with other Christians and they get a lot of criticism from many people in the CofC denomination.
Grace,
You are still being evasive. I don’t think there is a single new syllable in the above post.
Do you have any original thoughts on the request?
Why are you so reluctant to assist a fellow Christian?
Do you see any disparity in the manner in which you assist those who are searching for truth and the actions of Priscilla and Aquila?
I would bend over backwards to assist someone who was requesting help, as would most other posters on this blog? What say you?
Hi Grace.
I know Dwight jumped in and answered for you even though he acknowledged my question was for you and not him. When I want his opinion I will ask for it. I don’t mean to be rude and no offense is intended toward him. It is just simple common courtesy to allow the person asked to express their own opinion. I have a pretty good idea what Dwight believes i.e. that a person is not a Christian until they are baptized. That is his OPINION and he can’t produce a scripture that says a person is not a Christian until baptized. His opinion is based on what he infers from scripture, not what the scripture actually says. To be plain and repeat, the scriptures do not plainly state that a person is not a Christian until baptized. Many in the CofC do view baptism as the “magic moment” but I don’t see it that way.
And so I repeat my question to you again right here: You provided a lengthy reply which addressed a lot of stuff I didn’t ask about. You did say you think Christians should participate but neither baptism nor the Lord’s upper save a person. I NEVER suggested they did. So if we should observe them is there ANY good reason to neglect baptism? Is baptism ever optional other than a situation where it is just impossible? If you care to reply I would appreciate a straightforward and concise answer without all the additional verbage. Is baptism optional for a Christian? Hesed, Randall
271 replies – Wow! That alone might be an indication of how important many/most in the CofC believe baptism is.
I have changed my question several times to try to clarify. And Dwight has commented about their general understanding. If that’s not good enough for some, I’m sorry.
I’m not from the CofC denomination so they know their theology better than I.
There is only one person who said they agree with them, and Johnny had no problem answering this and was commendable of him.
Grace,
All four sentences above have been posted several times, so they are not helpful. Can you spare a minute or two to produce a few original thoughts on the request? Any help would be most appreciated.
As I said, I have changed my question several times to try to clarify. And Dwight has commented about their general understanding. If that’s not good enough for some, I’m sorry.
I’m not from the CofC denomination so they know their theology better than I.
Johnny had no problem answering and was commendable of him.
Okay, Grace. Steadfast refusal to assist a fellow Christian in better understanding the truth is certainly your prerogative. Thank God that Priscilla & Aquila didn’t follow this example!
My perception, and that of many others, is that you really don’t care for honest discussion. A lot of people come to this blog to learn, discuss differences, and to grow in Christ. If that’s not your thing, GTG. I am perfectly content to skip over your posts and engage meaningfully with those who actually care. Fortunately, most commenters here are willing to actually think, write, and participate.
I would encourage you to spend some time in reflection on the below easily verifiable facts:
1) On 9 Dec at 10:06 pm, you said other posters “are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.”
That was a false statement. I reviewed the comments. All of them.
2) You frequently said, “…there are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times… ”
That too is a false statement. You did not change it several times. You changed the question once, and that change merely added a single word: “general.”
Here is the original from 9 Nov:
“Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
Here is the LONE change from 24 Nov and the one you are still using (as recently as today):
“Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
3) Today at 2:19 pm, you said, “As I said, I have changed my question several times to try to clarify.”
That too is a false statement. You did not try to clarify several times.
The first sentence contains 32 words. The second contains 33. At best, you attempted to clarify once (by adding one word), but I am not sure that counts as a diligent effort.
4) You acknowledged that “there are quite many [sic] here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this” [question].
That is actually a true statement. At least 4 individuals expressed some sort of confusion based on the reality of church members widespread individual opinions on the matter. Though you acknowledge that many are having difficulty, you have chosen to add but a single word – seven letters – of clarification. As a professional, I can assure you that if a message is only understood by 20% of the respondents, the issue lies with the questioner rather than the answerer.
5) You said, “And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.”
Dwight informed you that you were misusing his words. But I see that you continue to use them anyway.
In Matt 10:14, Jesus states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.”
That’s good advice.
The poster known as Grace, and the phrase “trying to clarify” may be an oxymoron. Seriously, Grace? Cutting and pasting the same ole shtick, is an attempt at clarifying? Be like one of us in the CofC just posting “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”, once a day, and that’ s all.
Kevin said, “1) On 9 Dec at 10:06 pm, you said other posters “are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.”
That was a false statement. I reviewed the comments. All of them.”
I don’t expect you to accuse those from the CofC denomination of the things which have been thrown at me, that would be naive of me to think you would.
It’s been implied that I’m manipulative and deceptive, that I edit Scripture and that I’ve hijacked a blog.
If stating what I believe is manipulative and deceptive, well then everyone else here who states their view must be manipulative and deceptive too. And I have never edited any of the Scriptures in my comments, to me that would be to blaspheme God. And when I’m addressing a person’s comment with their name I put whatever it was they commented, I haven’t mis-quoted anyone.
The comments are all there and anyone can read them. And I can see reading many of the comments by people from the CofC denomination, they are saying the same things repeating what they’ve already said.
I see many comments by people from the CofC denomination that are the same things they’ve already said, they just put a variety of different spins on it.
I don’t have any problem with anyone who repeats what they believe on here. I just simply comment what I believe. If you don’t like how someone comments you can quit having a discussion with them.
Kevin said in 2 and 3, “2) You frequently said, “…there are quite many here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this even though I’ve changed it several different times… ”
That too is a false statement. You did not change it several times. You changed the question once, and that change merely added a single word: “general.”
Here is the original from 9 Nov:
“Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
Here is the LONE change from 24 Nov and the one you are still using (as recently as today):
“Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
3) Today at 2:19 pm, you said, “As I said, I have changed my question several times to try to clarify.”
That too is a false statement. You did not try to clarify several times.
The first sentence contains 32 words. The second contains 33. At best, you attempted to clarify once (by adding one word), but I am not sure that counts as a diligent effort.”
I said, I have changed my question several times to try to clarify.
And I changed my question three times trying to clarify:
1) November 9, 2014 at 1:31 am I said, Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
2) November 24, 2014 at 5:01 pm I said, Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under their CofC denomination’s “understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized.
As to the “understanding” of the church denomination you attend at, do you agree with them?
3) November 24, 2014 at 5:36 pm I said, Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized.
As to the “general understanding” of the CofC denomination, do you agree with them?
Kevin said, “4) You acknowledged that “there are quite many [sic] here from the CofC denomination having difficulty with this” [question].
That is actually a true statement. At least 4 individuals expressed some sort of confusion based on the reality of church members widespread individual opinions on the matter. Though you acknowledge that many are having difficulty, you have chosen to add but a single word – seven letters – of clarification. As a professional, I can assure you that if a message is only understood by 20% of the respondents, the issue lies with the questioner rather than the answerer.”
If you don’t like how someone comments you can quit having a discussion with them.
And actually my question is to find out if you accept Christians as others from the CofC denomination have. It’s not a question to sow discord, the question is about whether or not you will have unity.
Kevin said, “5) You said, “And Dwight has said there is a general understanding of their theology.”
Dwight informed you that you were misusing his words. But I see that you continue to use them anyway.”
Since Dwight is from the CofC denomination and has commented about their general understanding, I figured he knows their theology better than I since I’m not from the CofC denomination.
“Site rules: * No judging motives. No personal invective. No personal insults.”
Grace, the largest cofC congregation consists of people from many denominations.
See http://www.thehills.org/index.cfm/PageID/1522/index.html
for videos explaining what we believe the bible says about baptism
Thank you Red, perhaps that will help Kevin with his issue.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Hi Grace,
Thanks for the straight forward and concise answer. I have a very long history with the CofC and have studied their history more than some. I have met some in the CofC that believe some unusual stuff. E.G. a few that are not Trinitarian in their theology, more than a few that think Systematic Theology is a bad thing and only mention it from the pulpit to ridicule it, and very many that believe and teach that baptism is not effective as a special means of grace unless it was done on a believer who had the understanding that s/he was being immersed in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins. That is to say, this is the magic moment at which one’s sin’s are washed away. BTW, there have been more than a few that don’t grasp the difference between Sin as a principle active in the life of a person and sins as individual acts of iniquity.
The Firm Foundation (FF) was started to combat David Lipscomb, editor of the Gospel Advocate (GA), and the practice of welcoming Baptist into the CofC w/o requiring them to be rebaptized. Lipscomb didn’t think a Baptist needed rebaptism b/c they had already been baptized/immersed. Austin McGary of the Firm Foundation said they had to be baptized with the right “theology”in their heads at the time of their baptism. JMH speaks of this as the Tennessee tradition (Lipscomb, Harding and the GA) vs. the Texas tradition *McGary and the FF). Eventually the Texas tradition won and by the last half of the 20th century the Texas tradition view (a person had to be baptized with the right “theology”in their heads at the time of their baptism) became the predominant view throughout the whole of the CofC. Obviously there are people and even whole congregations that don’t hold to the Texas tradition anymore and the line in the sand is blurred more than it was during the 1950s when I was a kid. I actually remember our congregation participating in “Operation Doorbell” where we went knocking on people’s doors to invite them to church. One elder taught us that if a person asked if we believed a Baptist was saved we were to answer “I don’t believe a person can go to heaven w/o doing what the bible says, do you?” We all knew we were just being “polite” as the real answer was Heck no! They didn’t get baptized the right way. Thanks goodness, I haven’t seen much of that attitude in the last 40 years but it is still around.
I wish you the best and hope your walk with the Lord gets closer every day as you strive to be His hand maiden.
Hesed,
Randall
Grace when I wrote you, This concept of “faith only” was proposed by Martin Luther, so does that make you Lutheran. You have not stated, because you do not wish to be pegged the way you are trying to peg those within the coC.” I was intending to find out with who align yourself in their belief system as this is what you are trying to do here with the coC. It is ridiculous to write into a coC site and not find people that have a similar belief that many in the coC have and argue with them as far as what they believe. You obviously know what we believe, but you make the same questions over and over again as if you are trying to indict the whole of the coC and thus us.
This is why you keep repeating this question, “Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?”
Who is the them…the some or the coC denomination, which has no stiff rules as far as what you are indicating, because it is a general rule of the people and not the coC as a creed. The thing is that most people as far as I know in the coC believe that people who were baptized into Jesus elsewhere for salvation are considered saved.
And your argument of “Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil.” is wrong in that it is generally understood that if you have faith you will be moved in that faith to do what God wants and thus will be saved in that faith in doing His will, which includes repentance and baptism and living a life in Jesus.
A “child of devil” implies that one is following satan as opposed to God, but a follower of God will do what is commanded of by God. Cornelius had faith in God and when he was told what to do He was saved in Christ. He willingly fulfilled God’s desire. It is notable that if Cornelius was saved early on in the chapter even when God talked to Him, then Peter’s involvement was really a moot point and unneeded. Cornelius didn’t have to have Peter or the HS as a sign that gentiles could receive the word that Peter preached or baptism, but he did. Your argument is placing salvation ahead of what actually took place and what we are told is the order by Jesus himself.
So your argument is not with us, but with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 8:12 and Acts 8:36 and Acts 16:15. Let us read Acts 16:15 “And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.”
She recognized that her following and baptism was part of being faithful to God.
Grace, You state and ask, “There are some people from the CofC denomination that would imply that churches other than them are against baptism, which is simply not true. Perhaps you’ve ran across such a crew when you were with the CofC denomination.’
Actually I have run across those from other groups that are for baptism for salvation that were not of the coC and I have run across those who believe that baptism is just an after thought not really needed and thus optional and thus against what God is vehemently for. So your statement “of simply not true” is simply not true. If you are not for it in the positive in the way God expressed it, then you are against it in the way God expressed it. Baptism was never expressed as an option.
Larry,
You said, “Have you noticed Grace did answer your question…”
No! I hadn’t realized that. I don’t read her posts anymore. But I am happy to hear that we finally persuaded her to simply clarify a question. Too bad it took this much effort over such a trivial matter. I’m not sure why. Thanks for the notice and Gob bless. Success at last.
Dwight said, “Cornelius didn’t have to have Peter or the HS as a sign that gentiles could receive the word that Peter preached or baptism, but he did.”
Peter never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him. The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is not an energy or a concept. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. He is God.
Peter’s heart was changed toward the Gentiles the day before he went to meet Cornelius and the others. When the Gentiles came to ask Peter to come to Cornelius’, Peter invited them in to stay with him and lodged them for the night, lodged them is to “entertain as a guest.” Peter had Gentiles stay the night with him and he entertained them as welcomed guests. Acts 10:23
God had already changed Peter’s heart that people cannot be ritually clean. Peter explained this to Cornelius when they met, Acts 10:28 “He said to them, You yourselves know very well that a Jew is not allowed by his religion to visit or associate with Gentiles. But God has shown me that I must not consider any person ritually unclean or defiled.”
God didn’t accept them so the Jews would accept them, that would be a small god. God accepted them regardless of how many Jews would like it. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Nowhere in scripture is baptism referred to as a “ritual.’ That is modern day language used to demean the importance of baptism. If we just refer to baptism, as scripture does, then we will see it as conjoined with belief by Jesus as being salvic in Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.’ We will refer to it as referred to by Peter in Acts 2 as coupled with repentance that remits sin. Everything has to be cleansed by blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. When baptism is linked to remission of sins, that is not some small thing or some “ritual.’ Peter goes on to say in 1 Peter 3:21 that “baptism doth now save us”.
If anyone knew what he was talking about it was Peter. Any Christian should never be ashamed to say that baptism saves. Peter did. To say otherwise is a clear contradiction of scripture. How or in what manner it saves can be discussed, but not the fact that somehow, baptism(not separate and apart from Jesus, but baptism into Jesus, into his name upon our belief in him) is salvic. Even the apostle Paul when referring to his own salvation experience said, he was commanded to be baptized washing away his sins. That’s the purpose of baptism, like it or not. Scripture says so.
So, I’m good with using Biblical terminology when referring to baptism, and “ritual” isn’t one of those terms. Can we not let scripture speak for scripture, without any propaganda?
People from the CofC denomination don’t like that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles before they were baptized, it’s not their theology, their theology is that you have to be baptized before you receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace, I am trying to figure out at what point I referred to the Holy Spirit as an “it” as I placed the Holy Spirit in the same category of personage as Peter. This is misdirection and allows you to not confront the real issue, which was if Cornelius was saved due to his belief in God as you say faith saves and he knew in God, then Peter and the Holy Spirit coming to Cornelius as a sign was not really showing anything.
The Holy Spirit coming to Cornelius is a sign, because Peter after seeing the sign remarks, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” Strange wordage for someone who believes they are already saved.
This is another case just like in Acts 2 where Peter responds with “be baptized”. Where would he get such a notion? Maybe Jesus statement in Mark 16:16 when Jesus himself tells the apostles to “Go unto all the world”, the says, “All who believe and are baptized will be saved.”
For some reason you don’t acknowledge Jesus own statement and the apostle following of that statement as He said it within the scriptures with any sort of weight. Why is that?
You argue that the HS means that they are saved and yet there are no scriptures that say that. Show me one? And if so, then we have a case where only two groups were saved in this way… the apostles and Cornelius and his household. The Ethiopian eunuch and others don’t qualify.
And then Peter says in Acts 2,”Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” So this Holy Spirit gift that comes after baptism isn’t what Cornelius received as it happened before they were baptized. Peter must be mistaken or lying to the 5000 people at this point, because according to you, you can actually receive the gift of the HS and salvation before being baptized.
Either your are right and Jesus and Peter is wrong or Jesus and Peter is right and you are wrong and Cornelius was saved after baptism in faith and the HS gift wasn’t tied to the salvation, but to showing Peter that they to could be baptized and receive salvation.
Grace, Another mischaracterization of the people in the coC. You say, “People from the CofC denomination don’t like that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles before they were baptized, it’s not their theology, their theology is that you have to be baptized before you receive the Holy Spirit.”
Actually the people that I know in the coC are fine and dandy with the HS coming to Cornelius and his household, because as the text shows it allowed Peter and those who were with him to proclaim what they understood from Jesus, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
Again either Peter was wrong in Acts 2 where he says, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” or the HS that Cornelius received wasn’t reflective of them being saved, but a sign that they could “be baptized” as the text says. And then Jesus was wrong for even saying, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” As you could just have faith and bypass Jesus word altogether.
This is really all this comes down to. Do you believe Jesus and all of His words or just selective ones?
Or your interpretation could be wrong.
Peter’s heart was changed toward the Gentiles the day before he went to meet Cornelius and the others. When the Gentiles came to ask Peter to come to Cornelius’, Peter invited them in to stay with him and lodged them for the night, lodged them is to “entertain as a guest.” Peter had Gentiles stay the night with him and he entertained them as welcomed guests. Acts 10:23
God had already changed Peter’s heart that people cannot be ritually clean. Peter explained this to Cornelius when they met, Acts 10:28 “He said to them, You yourselves know very well that a Jew is not allowed by his religion to visit or associate with Gentiles. But God has shown me that I must not consider any person ritually unclean or defiled.”
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in the God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
God didn’t accept them so the Jews would accept them, that would be a small god. God accepted them regardless of how many Jews would like it. God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
People who are not saved do not have the Spirit of God.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
Do you believe that Satan would do or say anything within his power or influence, to keep an individual from having faith in Jesus? I believe that you will not express your belief in this with just a simple “yes”, but I also believe that you will not say”no” or that you do not believe that Satan would do that.
Because of the arguments that you post regularly, you must believe that Christians who teach that baptism is involved in converting an individual from the world to a life with Christ, have the power to condemn those who are not being baptized according to their beliefs. Is that true? Is that what you believe?
I do not believe that Christians have the power to make that condemnation.
I see that being the message that you are promoting, that a lost soul becomes saved as soon as it has faith in Jesus. Is that true? Is that what you believe?
Based upon these concepts, if you are right and all are saved as soon as they obtain faith in Jesus, and you have also identified that you would never tell a saved individual that they should not be baptized. You must see some benefit to a Christian from being baptized. Would you explain what that is?
On the other side of this picture, someone believes that an individual is not saved until his faith has been shown through submitting to baptism. A passive act which he can take no credit for, because it is done unto him by God and a servant. He submits to Christ’s teachings.
If in either event above the individual is saved. Then the disagreements that have been being voiced here are useless, in fact they would be sinful according to this passage.
1Ti 6:20-21 YLT O Timotheus, the thing entrusted guard thou, avoiding the profane vain-words and opposition of the falsely-named knowledge, (21) which certain professing–concerning the faith did swerve; the grace is with you. Amen.
If you teaching that salvation comes prior to baptism, yet you also tell these Christians that they need to be baptized, as all Bible examples show. These new Christians will have the exact same salvation as those who are taught that they need to be baptized immediately for remission of sins. All these Christians will have obeyed the instructions of Christ and his followers.
But, if by chance you do not teach these new converts (individuals who have obtained faith) that they should be baptized and they do not submit to baptism in water. They have not followed the instructions of Christ.
Mat 28:18-20 YLT And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; (19) having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them–to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days–till the full end of the age.’
Mar 16:15-16 YLT and he said to them, `Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation; (16) he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
You may never be able to comprehend what I am going to say, but unless you teach these messages also, you will be teaching less than Christ’s instructions. I hope you do understand who it is that opposes Christ’s teachings.
I would really like to hear the biblical story , some if not all of the older , Christians who comment here would tell their children, or grandchildren. I can’t imagine it being at all like the one I was told or the one I told to mine. *I don’t mean the “new testament ” only. The biblical story didn’t begin in Matthew, nor did it end in Revelation.
Laymond,
The account of The New Covenant did begin in Matthew and the reveling of the written Word has ended with Revelation. This is the Covenant that we are living under, and there is much support in The Old Covenant to help us to understand the New. Do you believe that we could not live acceptably under the New without a knowledge of the Old?
As I am thinking and writing this I remember that Christ instructed his followers to teach the Good News to all of the world. How much of the world would have been educated in the Old Testament to rely upon it for support within the Good News? I would think that only the Jews would have access to or a working knowledge of The Old Covenant. Where do we find instructions for the Apostles to teach the Old to those whom are not Jews who obey the Good News. I am not attempting to imply that learning and studying the Old will be useless but that the commands and rituals which were part of the Old are not applicable to us today.
I believe that the Good News of the New Covenant contains all instructions that are needed to bring any lost soul to salvation.
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before he died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
I believe Cornelius, family and friends had heard about Jesus, I never said they believed in Jesus as the Messiah.
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Peter never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him.
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
No Jay, I have lost entries I hae wrote when I have incorrectly miswrote my email address by omitting one letter, so I thought this is what had happened initially.
Grace, It doesn’t matter does it as long as they have faith in God, as I think this was your argument from before…faith saves through Grace from God. Now you are placing a condition in front of this faith…”believed in Jesus as the Messiah.” Which is strangely the same argument those that argue for baptism for the right reasons argue….belief in Jesus as the Messiah.
But, according to the faith model, as long as they have faith in God, they should be saved. At the time you argue that the apostle had been saved, Jesus had not been sacrificed for the sins of all and they even forsook Jesus at His death and they had not recieved the Holy Spirit.
Your initial argument, unless I misunderstood, was that Cornelius had faith in God and was saved, even before Peter had started to talk to them about Jesus. But still even while Peter spoke to them about Jesus, they had the Holy Spirit fall on them, then you have Peter following what Jesus spoke. “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever BELIEVES in Him will receive remission of sins…can anyon forbid water that they should be BAPTIZED.”
Dwight said, “Your initial argument, unless I misunderstood, was that Cornelius had faith in God and was saved, even before Peter had started to talk to them about Jesus.”
I never said that.
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
I believe Cornelius, family and friends had heard about Jesus, I never said they believed in Jesus as the Messiah.
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Peter never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him.
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Some here have emphasized that man is saved through faith plus works. If that is true then I assume their understanding of James’ epistle must put them in direct contradiction to what Paul has written, especially in Romans. It is my understanding that James is saying that a dead faith is not a saving faith and that a true faith cannot help but demonstrate itself in good works, thus showing us that the faith and salvation are real.
Nonetheless, I will happily acknowledge that man is saved by faith plus works immediately upon receipt of a list that specifies precisely which works and how many of them I need to do in order to be saved. If you cannot provide such a list you may wish to reconsider your affirmation of salvation through your faith plus your works as your claim lacks credibility. Just sayin …
Hesed,
Randall
Mark 16:16 “Believe and are baptized shall be saved.” This is as much as a list as there needs to be and what happens next in Acts and the rest of Acts shows that the apostles acted off of this “list”. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, He also said I am the door, so Jesus Himself should know how one enters the kingdom and becomes a sheep of His.
The problem with the “faith” alone concept is that even when we put it forward it comes up short when we bring all of the scriptures into focus, Peter said, “You are Jesus Son of the Living God”, so Peter believed in Jesus, which is why Jesus said, “On this rock (or statement) I will build my congregation”, so Peter had fatih in Jesus. Thus Peter must have been saved. It is strange that Peter didn’t revcieve the Holy Spirit at this time. So people say, “Well Jesus had to die on the cross.” So it took an act, a ritual, a sacrifice to make faith work? This doesn’t make sense…after all faith is faith and that is all that you presumabley need.
There is a reason James writes James, which is probably due to the fact that people understood Romans to mean that all you need was faith. This was not Paul’s intent.
Paul starts out by saying, “The just shall live by faith.” What faith…”the gospel of Jesus” and then
Paul points out “practice such things are deserving of death.”, then Paul turns to the Jews and those who “and rest on the law.” then Paul chides them for believing that doing the works of the law made them righteous, the Paul “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed.”, then Paul says, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.” So Paul isn’t saying law is wrong, but that doing the law isn’t what saves you, but rather doing the law by faith is what saves you. The Jews had forgotten faith and had replaced it with works. The argument for Abraham was that Abraham didn’t just do what he did and “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”, but let us remember that Abraham’s faith resulted in Abraham doing what what God had told him to do.
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Peter never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him.
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
This is why in James 2 James repeats the above statement, “And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
So how does James not contradict Romans?
Abraham could not save himself, there is nothing Abrham could do, no work he could complete or do, but when God came along and offered Abraham a deal that he couldn’t refuse, Abraham by faith trusted in God and did what God wanted.
We cannot do anything ourselves, there is no work we can do. Only God can pull us from the sin we are in. But we have to have faith in God and act when God says act.
Did Noah save himself? No, God did. God told him to build a boat and Noah in faith and trust spent a lifetime building a boat that he and his family and animals could live in while the world flooded. Noah would not have known to build a boat if not for God. God showed grace to Noah.
I suppose it is useless to point out that the ending of Mark 16 was probably lost and the writings quoted so often about baptism were probably not written by Mark. Any snake handlers among us?
Dwight,
Do I understand you to say that the list of works are found in Mark 16:16 and the Acts of the apostles? Could you be more specific? As my salvation depends on faith, baptism the right way, and the works recorded in Acts I want to be sure I do each and every one or risk being lost. Am I saved while still in the process of doing these particular works (how many times/how often for each specific work is required? just once?) or must I complete each one and then become saved or am I never saved until after I die?
Also, are you telling us that James was written b/c people misunderstood Romans so James had to clarify what Paul meant? Was Paul inspired to write what he wrote or perhaps he just delivered a sloppy message?
Dwight, feel free to explain this to me and provide a specific list of which works and how many of them I must do in order to be saved.
This is all so confusing.
Hesed,
Randall
Grace, So you don’t beleive what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 and that the apostles acted on it in Acts? What version do you use again?
Actually you presume that the apostles had salvation before Jesus came and died, but there is no record of this? And then they recieved the Holy Spirit when…so if what happened in to Cornelius was the standard, the apostels weren’t really saved until Acts 2.
You presume that Cornelius was saved prior to his being baptized, but the scriptures never say this.
What you have is built on presumption, instead of what is actually written and you have to disregard what Jesus said and what the apostles did in every case…baptized.
And then you have to disregard what Peter said in Acts 2,”Repent and be baptized and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit”, because Peter was obviously mistaken and wrong.
Was Peter mistake or wrong? Was Jesus mistaken or wrong?
Randall, You are asking questions that the apostles addressed in Acts 2 to those who asked “what must they do to be saved?” You are asking for more than what you will allow to be truth. What did Jesus say and what did the apostles tell those who wanted to be saved and what did they do? It is that easy. Paul wrote things to the Corinthians to correct things he had already wrote and told them, so it is not unheard of people misunderstanding what the apostles meant and that they had to correct the people. Jesus did this constantly. It wasn’t Paul’s fault or Jesus fault. Paul focuses in on the Jews from the get go in Romans and how they did works thinking this would endear them to God, but they had forgotten faith. Paul starts out with, “Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;”
Obedience? Wait, does’nt Paul speak against obedience when he speaks against works?
No and no. The obedience must be based on faith, which is where James goes.
Who says we can’t misread something the same way they did and we do.
Rom.6 “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.”
Wait where is the faith? No faith mentioned here, so does that mean that he is now excluding fiath from salvation and it is not all about obedience? No and No!
What is interesting about Romans is that the further you get into it the more Paul speaks about doing things and putting off evil and we are told to love. Told to love?
“Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.” Salvation is tied to love now and not faith? So is faith not right? We can dissect the scripture looking for particular elements or we can see the whole picture.
Many believe that the scriptures teach that good works are a normal part of the Christian walk, but NOT that works are required or efficacious to/for salvation. Rather they are part of the fruit of salvation we received by grace through faith. If works are required for salvation then please, please tell me which ones and how many of them. But of course, you can’t do that as we are all aware no one can provided such a list as we are not saved by works.
I don’t know of any “faith only” people that teach that we shouldn’t work. They all affirm that we should go about doing the works that God created beforehand that we should walk in them.
I wonder what Paul wrote in an earlier letter to the Corinthians that he had to correct or explain again to them? No doubt he needed to write to them to change their behavior. There will always be some that use their liberty as an excuse for license and Paul let’s them know that although all things are lawful, not all things are helpful.
Even Paul had difficulty in walking the walk as he makes clear in Romans 7, but it wasn’t b/c he didn’t know what he should/would do. Rather it was b/c of sin principle still showing itself in his life.
I have no doubt that we, today, can misunderstand and misread things we find in our bibles and then misbehave. I find ample evidence of that wherever I go. When Peter behaved hypocritically Paul corrected him to his face. Are you suggesting James is doing the same for Paul, just w/o talking to him about it?
Hesed,
Randall
Mark, So you don’t believe in the veracity of the last part of Mark 16:16, so this must mean that you also call into question all of those scriptures that aren’t repeated in another scripture as well, which cuts out a lot of scripture.
And it sound as though you believe that this part on “faith and baptism” was added somewhere else down the line. Where could they have gotten this notion? Could it be from other scripture?
What you seem not to do is connect the Acts of the apostles with what they were taught by Jesus. If Peter would have said when asked “what must we do to be saved?”…”just believe”, then I would be behind you 100%, but this is not what Peter said. He didn’t even mention faith here and little elsewhere, so if Romans is anti-work, Acts must be anti-faith, because faith is never mentioned in direct relation to salvation in Acts. Perhaps this is why Romas was written.
Then there is:
If the Ethiopian eunuch would have said after he was taught, “I am saved”, then said, “Do I still need to be baptized?”, then I might be with you 100%.
If Peter would have not said when He saw the HS fall on Cornelius, “they are saved”, instead of “who can forbid them to be baptized.”
The very acts of the apostles showed Mark 16:16 to be a real statement as this iw what they did without question. Why do we question it? Because we look to other scriptures in order to get around it and not apply it. Perhaps actually doing something for Jesus seems demeaning to us, but it wasn’t demening for all of those father’s of faith that put their faith into action and were approved of by God in doing this and not before.
Randall, I am suggesting that the readers of Paul were taking Romans to the point were you are taking it without pulling other scriptural concepts into it, such as where in Acts the apostles called on them to be baptized. The readers who were Jews were being criticized for thier belief that work itself justified, and Paul corrected them by saying you must have faith, as works alone of the law do not save, but he never suggest that faith and works do not save. James wasn’t correcting Paul, but showing the readers that “faith without works is dead” and that faith makes works alive and perfect. To take Romans as suggesting that works are worthless to God, makes the works that Jesus did worthless and many people were suggesting this as well in arguing that He wasn’t crucified. James merely completes the argument for faith when he says, ““Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
So being baptized is important to Dwight, and I think it is important too, but Dwight says the Holy Spirit isn’t important. According to Dwight the Spirit of God Himself really means “Nothing” when it comes to our relationship with God.
Dwight said, “Grace, So you don’t beleive what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 and that the apostles acted on it in Acts?”
You say the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected. So being already saved they didn’t have to be saved later in Acts.
Or are you saying they were saved when they were with Jesus before He died and was resurrected, then when He died and was resurrected the disciples became lost so then they had to be baptized to be saved again?
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Hi Dwight,
I would appreciate it if you would refrain from saying that b/c I believe one thing then I “must” believe something else. This amounts to putting words in my mouth that I neither said nor believe. You may see logic there where I or others don’t. Besides that, it is presumptuous and in this case just flat out wrong. Regrettably this has been all too common in CofC circles but that doesn’t make it any less disrespectful.
Are you familiar with a field of study called Textual Criticism? If not, may I recommend it to you as worthy of your time. You could learn why deeply committed Christian scholars do not believe the end of Mark’s gospel was actually written by him rather than added later, perhaps b/c the original ending was lost.
Next: I do believe every Christian should be baptized but I don’t believe it is the magic moment where one passes from lost to saved. I don’t intend to discuss baptism with you beyond this point.
You claimed that salvation is by faith plus works. I asked you for a list of the works, but obviously neither you nor anyone else can provide such a list.
Over and out.
Hesed,
Randall
Randall, just to clarify myself. There are no scriptures that say that Peter was correcting Paul’s audience, but it is possible.
If Paul was confronted by a people (the Jews) who leaned heavily towards doing the works of the OT Law in justification, Paul might and from the looks of it did, specifically preach heavily on faith as a justifier to make a distinction that faith saves, but works don’t. Buit if just read alone it might seems as though only faith saves, which Paul doesn’t say. In fact he often mentions not doing sin instead doing good and mentions obedience many times.
But sine people focus on faith and read into it a diatribe against works as being worthless, then that will be thier telescope and they can filter out works all together.
James counters that notion in his letter, not focusing on works or faith, but how they work together and complete each other.
This wouldn’t be the first time this has happened to Paul. In I Cor. 5 Paul tells them, “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world,…. since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.” Paul had to correct their misunderstanding of what he initially wrote. They took his argument past the initial application and extended.
Randall, I am sorry you took offense, but while it might be possible that Mark 16:16 was not written until later, the apostles still worked with this understanding that baptism is a part of saving another from what is recorded in Acts. This means that they had the understanding of Mark 16:16 among them. The fact is that just as many who don’t beleive Mark 16:16 was originally there are met with just as many scholars who do. This command and order of Mark 16 is followed in Acts. .
Sorry Randall, Did not mean to put words in your mouth, but just pointing to the fact that if we cannot take some scripture as scripture because it is in doubt by some, but not others, then we can take a lot more in doubt because it is doubt by some and not others and we cut out a lot of scripture, even scripture that is verified by other books in action as Acts does to Mark 16;16.
You write, “You claimed that salvation is by faith plus works. I asked you for a list of the works, but obviously neither you nor anyone else can provide such a list.”
I do not claim this as this is what is claimed by James. James writes, “And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” The only time you ever read of “faith only” it is used in such as way as say that it is “not by faith only.”
So there are no list of works, because works don’t save, but there is no list of faith alone either. What we see clearly in the scriptures is case after case of faith with works together. Always.
Grace and Randall and everyone,
Here is a site I found. It seeks to reconcile Romans and James in a pretty convincing way. This should be our goal as otherwise they tear each other apart. This paradox was one of Martin Luther’s greatest problems. Let me know what you think.
http://www.christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html
James isn’t saying we do works to merit salvation. He is saying the good works we do are evidence of our faith, he is speaking about showing our faith to others.
James also says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
You say the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected. So being already saved they didn’t have to be saved later in Acts.
Or are you saying they were saved when they were with Jesus before He died and was resurrected, then when He died and was resurrected the disciples became lost so then they had to be baptized to be saved again?
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Larry, I think you make a good point that is really overlooked by almost everyone…the letter of Romans was written to the Jewish Christians. So they were in Christ, presumabley because they believed Jesus to be the saviour and were baptized, but they also relied on pure works of law to carry them onwards in regards to Christ, while Paul is saying God wants faith. But Paul also indicates in other letters that works save…Phil.2:12, “work our your own salvation”.
But here Paul states, “For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.” But James is evidently correcting the issue of where people are claiming faith alone and not working, as he says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
James repeats the exact same statement about Abraham, but makes them understand that faith resulted in works that God accepted. Faith must have works and works must have faith.
Acts does indeed tell us what the apostles did in regards to what they believed and understood.
Hi Dwight,
You might find this of interest regarding the authenticity of Mark 16: 9ff
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/
Hesed,
Randall
Dwight,
So long as you want to quote Phil. 2:12 let’s also look at verse 13 as verse 12 taken OUT of context doesn’t send quite the same message as including the entire sentence. from:
http://www.esvbible.org/Philippians+2%3A12-13/
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
You short clip places the emphasis on man’s effort but the bible places the emphasis on what God does. This is all so Church of Christy. If only they encouraged real bible study rather than hopscotching from part of one verse to another disconnected to each other. I find it tedious and frustrating.
Hesed,
Randall
When Paul addresses the church in his letters, he uses subtle(or perhaps not so subtle) phrases intended to distinguish between the converted and the unconverted, those who are saved and those who are not saved(yet) perhaps. In Romans 6 for example in verse 3 he says ” for as many of us’ -us who? As many of us “as have been baptized into Jesus Christ.” Paul uses the pronoun we 7 times in the first 6 verses of chapter 6. Who are the “we” he’s referring to? The same as the “us ” of verse 3. Us Christians. Us(we), the baptized ones. Paul, led by the Spirit could have certainly said, us believers, but through inspiration he chose to we(us) the baptized into Christ people. “Well Paul, what if you haven’t been baptized into Christ (yet)? Is there a separate category for believers who are waiting(for what reason) to be baptized? Evidently, Paul knows of only two categories, the ones who are baptized into Christ(the church) and those who(for whatever reason) have not yet.
In Galatians, Paul again uses a distinguishing phrase when addressing the church, distinguishing again from those who are Christ’s and those who haven’t yet made a commitment to Jesus as their Lord. In Galatians 3:27 when he says,”For as many of you -(you who?) as have been baptized into Christ have put Christ on. “Excuse me Paul, I believe in Jesus, I believe I have put on Christ, but I don’t believe I have to be baptized to be saved or to put him on”. “I will do it at some point in the future.” Again, Paul only knows of two groups, those who by faith have put their trust in Jesus complying with baptism into Christ. And those who haven’t put their faith in Christ complying with baptism. Again, is there some separate “saved” but not yet baptized group, and then another group of lost unbelievers? Paul doesn’t seem to think so. I think that idea would be foreign to Paul.
Paul’s favorite expression he uses perhaps is “in Christ.” Paul’s theology is that the church(saved) are all who by faith in Christ have been baptized into Christ and cleansed(redeemed) by God in this process. In today’s theology there seems to be a third group of those who are saved, but not immersed into Christ,.
I’ve never said Christians shouldn’t be doing good works, of course we should. When have I said we shouldn’t?
You say the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected. So being already saved they didn’t have to be saved later in Acts.
Or are you saying they were saved when they were with Jesus before He died and was resurrected, then when He died and was resurrected the disciples became lost so then they had to be baptized to be saved again?
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Lydias prayers were heard, appreciated and positively acted upon by God. Did she have todays supposed law commands all down right? No, but right enough to be worthy of being judged positively.
Would she be saved by obeying all she knew to be right and praying to God? I believe so and pray that is so as its doubtful any of us have got it all just right. WE all need Grace and to have God overlook our errors in understanding and to judge our hearts instead of our obedience to the law as someone has explained it to us as being the only way and its a fact.
It would be more believable if all agreed, but look at the differences in what each considers as fact spouted by scholars.
Many preach the prayers of those outside the COC are NOT heard. I believe they are wrong and so does Lydia.
Grace, I never “attacked” AJ. I simply followed his logic when he said, “More will soon be leaving when more of us LAW only old timers pass away and will not be hurt by their leaving the LAW and rushing to Jesus.” If LAW in indeed not to be heeded, then he is also disregarding what James calls the Perfect Law of Liberty. “But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.” The perfect law of liberty is the words of Christ and accordingly we are supposed to act in these words, but still it is “law”, law that frees, but law still. He will be “blessed in what He does of this law.” I never “attacked” or smeared or defamed or criticized AJ in this. I simply tried to point out that what James points to that law isn’t a bad thing, and the problem isn’t with law, which was given us by God, but with us who “hears’ and doesn’t do. All good things come from God, so if law came from God it was good and still is, but while we don’t live under the Mosaic law we do live under the laws as given by Jesus. One of the biggest laws, “Love the Lord thy God….”
AJ, I agree Lydia was heard by God, because that is what the text says, but it is beyond the text to argue that Lydia was saved at that time, ironically what you say is correct, “Would she be saved by obeying all she knew to be right…” in that when she heard Paul’s message and responded in baptism, she obeyed what God wanted. But your argument of “obeying and praying”, because you “believe so” doesn’t have any scriptual merit, nor does anything I believe. We have to go by what the scriptures say. God heard her prayers and considered here worthy to be saved, so God sent Paul to her and she heard and was baptized in that order. Thus God’s grace was shown.
I have never heard, and I have been in the coC a long time, that the “prayers of those outside the coC are NOT heard.” I Peter “For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” Lydia was heard because she had a heart that was willing to to what was right, God knew she would and she did.
I think the question, ““Was Abraham Justified before God because of his precision obedience?” ask the wrong question. James makes the point that Abraham was justified because of his faith and works. Was it precision, maybe not, but it was faith in action. If Abrham had not tried, do we think God would have been pleased? I doubt it, as God was not pleased with those who did something different than what He commanded…Saul and Moes for two.
But would Jesus have been wrought with Abraham if on his way to sacrifice Isaac he was killed by a lion? I don’t think so, because Abraham was intending to go and showed that intent, even if something beyond his control stopped him.
The scriptures from the OT to the NT never reflect kindly on one who says they believe in God, and Moses and Saul defintiely did, but didn’t do what God wanted of them in obedience. They replaced thier faith and trust in God with themselves and we do this when we suppose God is happy with us when we only go halfway in faith and not action.
Dwight said, “If LAW in indeed not to be heeded, then he is also disregarding what James calls the Perfect Law of Liberty.”
I didn’t take it that AJ doesn’t think the law should be heeded, but that his view leans more on Jesus rather than on his law keeping.
And I don’t believe anyone here has said God’s laws aren’t good or that we shouldn’t be doing them.
James says we should be doing what God’s law says.
James also says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
The standard we have to meet is perfection.
The Pharisee sought to keep God’s law as righteousness and went down to his house not justified.
Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
You say the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected. So being already saved they didn’t have to be saved later in Acts.
Or are you saying they were saved when they were with Jesus before He died and was resurrected, then when He died and was resurrected the disciples became lost so then they had to be baptized to be saved again?
Since the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected, what was the so called exception with them, why did they have salvation without being baptized? The disciples were ordinary people. They were not from among the religious elite, they were among the more despised in society. Throughout the gospels we see them fail, struggle, and doubt God. So what was the “exception” with them from any other believer?
Cornelius was a Gentile who believed in God. There were Jews and Gentiles that didn’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
According to Peter they had not yet believed the gospel. Peter said he was sent to them so they would “hear the gospel and believe” (Acts 15:7).
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
I notice that you have posted this many times, I don’t see the original comment but I think you are crediting Dwight for the comment. I cannot imagine him making this statement. The statement cannot be proven and I believe that it is not in synchronization with the picture in scriptures.
The statement.
“You say the disciples had salvation when they were with Jesus before He died on the cross and was resurrected. So being already saved they didn’t have to be saved later in Acts.”
Jesus was baptized by Johns baptism prior to picking the 12 apostles, John was continuing to baptize after Jesus was baptized. The number of individuals John had baptized during his life on earth would have been many more than those who were a part of the assembly at Pentecost.
Joh 3:22-24 YLT After these things came Jesus and his disciples to the land of Judea, and there he did tarry with them, and was baptizing; (23) and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized– (24) for John was not yet cast into the prison–
The Apostles were baptizing so many that John’s disciples brought it to John’s attention.
Joh 3:25-28 YLT there arose then a question from the disciples of John with some Jews about purifying, (26) and they came unto John, and said to him, `Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou didst testify, lo, this one is baptizing, and all are coming unto him.’ (27) John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven; (28) ye yourselves do testify to me that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am having been sent before him;
So now here is the situation, John and Jesus’ Apostles were both baptizing prior to John’s death. It would be unrealistic to believe that the 12 Apostles were baptizing individuals evidently for the same reason that John had been (for remission of sin) without they themselves having been baptized. John had communicated that reason was for remission of sins and there are no accounts of Jesus correcting the statement.
Now there is a record of Apollos who was teaching knowing only the baptism of John, yet he was not re-baptized.
Act 18:24-26 YLT And a certain Jew, Apollos by name, an Alexandrian by birth, a man of eloquence, being mighty in the Writings, came to Ephesus, (25) this one was instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in the Spirit, was speaking and teaching exactly the things about the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John; (26) this one also began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and Aquilas and Priscilla having heard of him, took him to them , and did more exactly expound to him the way of God,
Then we have an account of these twelve.
Act 19:1-7 YLT And it came to pass, in Apollos’ being in Corinth, Paul having gone through the upper parts, came to Ephesus, and having found certain disciples, (2) he said unto them, `The Holy Spirit did ye receive–having believed?’ and they said unto him, `But we did not even hear whether there is any Holy Spirit;’ (3) and he said unto them, `To what, then, were ye baptized?’ and they said, `To John’s baptism.’ (4) And Paul said, `John, indeed, did baptize with a baptism of reformation, saying to the people that in him who is coming after him they should believe–that is, in the Christ–Jesus;’ (5) and they, having heard, were baptized–to the name of the Lord Jesus, (6) and Paul having laid on them his hands, the Holy Spirit came upon them, they were speaking also with tongues, and prophesying, (7) and all the men were, as it were, twelve.
It seems also unrealistic that there were only twelve men out of all who had been baptized by John that needed to be baptized again after Christ’s resurrection. Were there only twelve men who were baptized by John that were not at the Feast of Pentecost and were baptized again that day? Of course that doesn’t seem correct. To understand the purpose then we have to listen carefully to the reason they stated that they were baptized, they did not understand that Christ would come, and they should believe on him.
I believe that the Apostles were baptized also with the same baptism that was being performed prior to Christ’s death. Other than these twelve in Ephesus, there is no mention of any others needing to be re-baptized, John’s baptism was sufficient to anyone for salvation on this side of the Cross as long as they accepted Jesus later, or if they died prior to the resurrection they were sealed by John’s baptism.
Just a thought before I go: In regards to faith only, which the scripture never says or indicates, except in James when he says, “not faith only”, we have an attempt to reduce God down to what we want to define Him as.
In the same way we can read that “God is love”, then we think in our head that “God is only love” and then this leads us to the concept that God cannot hate or show any other negative emotion, because God is love, so God cannot possibly send people to hell or punish them, so God will save all people because God loves the world. There are many people that believe this, but this isn’t consistent with what we know of God, so many people do not like God because they see a contradiction in that a God is who love punished people. The people cannot imagine that God is a complex being, as complex as we, since we are in God’s image. We want to define God by a few choice scriptures that capture out attention, instead of seeing God and realizing that a God of love can hate and be jealous too, because God isn’t “only love”.
If we read the OT and the NT we will be struck that those people that had faith in God acted when God requested and God accepted them not before they acted, but after they acted. This is seen over and over again. They weren’t heroes of faith because they believed in God, but because they believed in God enough to act and God believed in them when they did what God said.
What stymies a lot of people I when we get to Romans and it says works do not justify, but faith, but Paul is addressing a particular problem with the Jews in doing works to be justified and not applying faith.
Then we do what people do in regards to “God is love” it is argued that “faith only justifies”, and God is reduced to one concept that is not seen in the scriptures, but we attempt to retrofit it. After all it does say, “Abraham was justified by faith” and yet Abraham acted and did what God wanted. The point is that Abraham just didn’t perform an act, but he performed an act because he had faith in God, which is what James points out.
The question that no body answers is, “Abraham knowing that God was God, would God have been pleased with Abraham if he would not have done what God asked?”
or “Could Abraham have just gotten by on faith in God, without acting on that faith and been accepted?”
The apostles acted on this concept in that they in their faith did what God wanted and they expected this of those they taught. They taught Jesus and expected a response of faith and works.
Larry, Very good. Here is another case of a statement pulled out of context to get to a point.
I did say this to Grace, “Actually you presume that the apostles had salvation before Jesus came and died, but there is no record of this? And then they received the Holy Spirit when…so if what happened in Acts to Cornelius was the standard, the apostles weren’t really saved until Acts 2.
You presume that Cornelius was saved prior to his being baptized, but the scriptures never say this. What you have is built on presumption, instead of what is actually written and you have to disregard what Jesus said and what the apostles did in every case…baptized.”
My argument was that even among those that believe in faith only, they want to define a point in time when that faith made them saved, so considering faith is called a work, this really isn’t that different than saying that one is saved at the point of baptism. And if you can’t define a point in time for faith to save, then this point must have been in baptism as the scriptures say.
I don’t think the apostles would have received from Jesus and taught others to respond in a way that they didn’t.
Now I have to say I don’t think John’ baptism was sufficient because John didn’t die for us, so we could not be buried into John and John’s baptism couldn’t save This is why I think that Apollos and the group had to be re-baptized into Christ.
But you might be right, after all John did baptize many people, who might not have been baptized after Jesus died.
But of course the apostles could have been baptized by Jesus Himself into Christ, after all Jesus did partake of the Lord’s Supper with them before He died and this was based upon His death which hadn’t happened yet. The reason and meaning would still be there even if the actual action hadn’t taken place.
All we really know is though is that Jesus commanded this in Mark 16;16,probably, and still the apostles acted on this understanding so that when the people asked, “what must we do to be saved?”, the responded with “Repent and be baptized.” and they did without questioning. And that this was repeated time and again in different settings with different people.
Dwight said, “What stymies a lot of people I when we get to Romans and it says works do not justify, but faith, but Paul is addressing a particular problem with the Jews in doing works to be justified and not applying faith.”
Paul wrote Romans about a number of issues going on. Paul addresses the gospel of Christ, Paul addresses growing tensions between Jews and Gentiles, Paul addresses Gentiles who were boasting against the Jews, Paul addresses his own sins, Paul addresses sufferings and hope, Paul addresses the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Paul addresses being kind,loving and humble.
Paul addresses righteousness through faith apart from works.
Romans 4:2-8For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
Paul says Abraham was righteous from his faith in God apart from any works that he did. David calls the person blessed who God declares righteous apart from works.
Paul says it isn’t faith plus works. Paul says God declares us righteous from our faith apart from works.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
Faith is responding to what God asks of you. You, like so many others, want to make faith something only cerebral, a thought. It can’t be(according to you and others) an action. Because that would mean a “work” done by you, and according to you (and others), it would negate the work of God, if man moved his body. However, scripture repeatedly shows peoples faith, in their actions. When Jesus put mud on the blind man’s eyes and told him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, which part was faith? Was it the thought,” OK, I will go and wash.” Was it when he left headed toward the pool, or was it when he washed in the pool? What was faith according to you and what was works? Wasn’t it all faith? If the man doesn’t obey the Lord and go wash, is it faith? If so, how so? If Jesus commands us to believe and be baptized, or repent and be baptized, what part is faith and what part is works? Isn’t it all by faith? Why do so many feel the need to get out their scalpels and try to divorce the thought process from the body moving process?
Baptism into Christ doesn’t negate faith and make it a work, any more so, than Noah’s work of building the ark negated his faith (even though I assure you he put a lot of back breaking work into it). In fact scripture says, “Noah built the ark by faith.” Not works! He didn’t just think about doing it, he actually did it. In baptism we are trusting that God will save us, based on the work of Jesus. No one I know, believes that he is literally saving himself. But we do believe that the trust that prompts us to obey the command and the actual obedience to the command is faith. Faith in a Savior who commands us to “go and wash.” It’s not Jesus + baptism. They are not two different things.
In Calvinism, we can’t even believe on Jesus, until the Holy Spirit illuminates us, which if that is the case makes even the act of believing God’s work. Some say we are incapable of even having a thought toward God because of our depraved state of being. Again, If that is the case, then there is no free will. And therefore, man cannot be judged fairly, based on his rejection of the truth. It would be like judging retarded children to hell because they just happened to be born retarded. No, in fact, in Romans 1 and 2 Paul tells us that people are in fact judged because they reject truth.
Anything that can be rejected means that there is free will involved. If there is free will involved(and I say there is)then there is a something, an obedience, a trust, that we must possess and exhibit, if called to do so. We are called to believe the good news, which Biblically speaking, is exhibited in our baptism into the Name.
If Jesus says, “Go and wash”, then faith is going and washing.
Randall said,
“The Passover does not reenact or memorialize Israel’s precision obedience but Yahweh’s amazing grace to a faithless, whining, stiffnecked people. Is this not what the Bible portrays? So at what point in Israel’s history were they saved thru precision obedience? I doubt you will will reply ***. The notion is pure absurdity and I cannot believe you have embraced the term out of commitment to the Bible itself.”
There is much good in what you said, I would just like to qualify one thing and that is that without even simple obedience to a God they hardly knew(through the command of Moses) they would have lost all their 1st born on the night of the final plague. Perhaps some in disobedience didn’t put the blood of the lamb on their door posts? Would the God they barely knew, have in grace, passed by the house without blood? I think we know the answer to that one. By faith they put blood on their door posts. It was a simple command, that could be simply executed. It was a one time thing. They didn’t earn God’s grace in passing over their house by placing blood on the door posts. It was still God’s goodness at work, even though, in simple faith, they obeyed.
I agree there is no such thing as precision obedience in everything over the course of a lifetime. Thank God , for grace! The act of putting blood on door posts is a simple request of God, much like baptism is. I’m not saying you were doing this, but extrapolating the act of baptism out to a lifetime of perfect precision obedience is wrong IMO.
Matthew 9:27-30 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, crying loudly, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” When He entered the house, the blind men came to Him; and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then He touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you.” And their eyes were opened.
Mark 1:40-42 Now a leper came to Him, imploring Him, kneeling down to Him and saying to Him, “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” Then Jesus, moved with compassion, stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.”
Luke 18:35-43 Then it happened, as He was coming near Jericho, that a certain blind man sat by the road begging. And hearing a multitude passing by, he asked what it meant. So they told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by. And he cried out, saying, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Then those who went before warned him that he should be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him. And when he had come near, He asked him, saying, “What do you want Me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, that I may receive my sight.” Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw it, gave praise to God.
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
Paul says Abraham was righteous from his faith in God apart from any works that he did. David calls the person blessed who God declares righteous apart from works.
Paul says it isn’t faith plus works. Paul says God declares us righteous from our faith apart from works.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
Paul says Abraham was righteous from his faith in God apart from any works that he did. David calls the person blessed who God declares righteous apart from works.
Paul says it isn’t faith plus works. Paul says God declares us righteous from our faith apart from works.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace
Seems you are part of the baptist denomination, just curious, if someone doesn’t believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, but has faith in him as the son of God (first created) does that matter in regards to their salvation as long as they believe in Jesus and that he died for them plus what exactly happens when one is baptised?
Thanks
Paul?
Grace, go back an read Romans again. I think you have missed some important points of context.
You say, “Paul says it isn’t faith plus works. Paul says God declares us righteous from our faith apart from works.” But Paul never says this as you are pulling a thought out, without seeing the big picture. The context of Romas is Paul talking to Jews who have been doing the works of the law as justification, Paul then comes back and says faith justifies and not works, but he never says “faith plus works doesn’t justify.” Paul himself believed and was baptized in Acts 9;17 and it never says he had faith, but he must have. Right? So Paul is an example of faith and works.
This would go against Paul when he states, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
If you can accept Paul in Romans, then you can accept Paul in Phi.2:12, where Paul says God works in us and we work as well to acheive salvation. It is interesting that in Phil. that Paul mentions faith/beleiving and works/labor together.
Romans isn’t the litmus test for the rest of the scriptures and must be understood in context of it.
I don’t attend a Baptist church, but I know brothers and sisters who attend Baptist churches, and they’re wonderful people who love the Lord and others!
If someone doesn’t believe Jesus came as God in the flesh then they don’t believe in who He is.
Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
James says if you ever fail at one single rule you are guilty of breaking every rule.
James 2:8-10 You do well when you really fulfill the royal law found in scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself. But when you show favoritism, you are committing a sin, and by that same law you are exposed as a lawbreaker. Anyone who tries to keep all of the law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
Paul says Abraham was righteous from his faith in God apart from any works that he did. David calls the person blessed who God declares righteous apart from works.
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Paul says it isn’t faith plus works. Paul says God declares us righteous from our faith apart from works.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace
So what denomination do you attend? When you say “I believe a person receives salvation when they have faith in Christ and that their brokenness is why the person cries out to God”
So your point is they must believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh or they are lost regardless of their view of Son of God or what they have been taught, correct? And also never got what exactly happens when one is baptized.
Thanks again
Paul
So the question under consideration is “Did Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?” as Grace believes. Since Cornelius believed in God and God talked directly to Cornelius, then Cornelius must have been saved at this point in his faith. Right? Or maybe not.
Now some would argue that Cornelius had to have Jesus preached to him to believe, but still Cornelius had faith in God and God spoke to him, so how much more of a saving faith do you need?
But if Cornelius did have to Jesus taught to him, then we are placing a condition on faith, so faith is conditional. Right? Or maybe not.
The apostles had faith in Jesus as Peter confessed that “Jesus was the Son of God”, so they must have been saved at the point of faith, but they did not have the Holy Spirit even then, so the belief in Jesus wasn’t enough to warrant the Holy Spirit or salvation in the Holy Spirit is a sign of being saved? So the faith they had had to be conditional on something else beyond just believing that Jesus was the Son of God? Or may be not.
The fact is the apostles, at least Peter believed in Jesus as the Son of God, and yet did not have the HS and Cornelius had incredible faith in God, but did not have the HS until Peter started talking about Jesus and yet the HS only did one thing for both parties…they both spoke in tongues for all to hear. The HS wasn’t tied to faith as both groups had faith, one group in Jesus and one group in God, before the HS came on them allowing them to speak in tongues. So there is no direct correlation between faith and the HS, unless salvation is a delayed thing coming sometime after faith has been achieved.
Another fact, Jesus told the apostles in Mark 16:16 “believe and be baptized for salvation” and Peter in Acts 2 acted on this when the many people who were convicted, “Asked what must they do to be saved” and Peter did not say have faith, but did say, “Repent and be baptized for the gift of the HS.”
So Peter was under the impression that salvation came not before faith, but after faith and baptism, even though the HS might have acted to allow the speaking of tongues in the believing. The apostles baptized even Cornelius and his household even after they had faith, even after the HS allowed them to speak in tongues, for what Peter understood to be salvation as he had done many times earlier.
If Cornelius was already saved prior to the baptism, then Peter under the wrong impression baptized them again for salvation, as this is what he understood from what he said in Acts 2, when asked by the people “what must we do to be saved”. Peter was then either wrong in Acts 2 and thus in Acts 10 in regards to baptism or he was correct and Cornelius wasn’t saved until after baptism, even in having faith.
If we place a condition of faith, any condition on faith (even believing in Jesus over God) , then it just isn’t faith that saves, but faith with respect to something else. That something else according to Mark 16:16 and the apostle Peter’s response was believing in Jesus and being baptism into Jesus.
If we believe that faith only saves, then we also must believe that works save because faith is called a work in the scriptures..Gal.5:6 “faith working”. Col 2;12 even connects the working faith to baptism, “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” Then there is I Thess.1:3 “work of faith”, II Thess.1:7 “work of faith”. Faith is produced by towards trust in God and is an internal work of the soul that can be small and can grow. And yet it is called a work or something that works.
Grace, what part of the above is wrong? Do not attach your pat questions and diatribe to this, just look at the points and respond to each of them, as I have tried to do for you in the past?
Thank You and God Bless,
Dwight
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace must have the opinion that by posting repetitively those verses which we have contested to not apply to anyone but Christians, will assure us that we are mistaken. Re posting without evidence refuting the claim that they are not applicable, is actually not a good reflection upon the poster.
I cannot remember if she ever answered the question, “does she teach the need to be baptized as she is teaching Jesus”?
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx641.htm
Grace,
Is this affirmation that you are using Al Maxey as prof of what the Bible teaches? I’ll explain that what I have read from Al’s position does not display the picture I will show you later. Soon I will present a lesson I have never read form any other author, that does not mean that it does not exist, only that I have never found it
Stay tuned.
Al Maxey’s article is thought provoking, but missing some key elements. Misses 1.) where Jesus Himself states “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved;” to the apostles; misses 2) where the apostles carried out that exact command in Acts 2 when the people ask “what must we do to be saved.”; misses 3.) that the Ethiopian eunuch went on his way rejoicing (after he was baptized); missess 4) in the case of the Phillipian jailer, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.” Paul says believe and then teaches them, then they baptized them. We can see the same thing exactly as seen in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2 and Acts 10. The pattern holds. Faith and then baptism and then rejoicing.
I do think that Al Maxey is right about salvation not being about law, but faith and baptism isn’t about law, but about response to Jesus. If baptism is a work of law, then so is faith, as we are required to have that as well. And there are too many scriptures that point to faith as a work. The further we get away from the simple pattern that the apostles understood and acted on, the more problems we encounter.
Quote from Achim’s Razor-“the simplest answer is usually the best answer.”
My Quote- “When you leave out parts, it is not complete.”
Do any of us wonder if God seeing and hearing how we debate and decipher His word with one another feels about it?
Does it make Him joyful or sad?
Makes me fearful as It is written how he dealt with the Pharisees doing this with the old law.
I found this fine article, and is worth looking at for all interested in understanding the Jewish roots of mikveh or baptism. I think this article could clear up things in a lot of people’s minds. To me, it clears up why Jesus answered Josephus with incredulity when he said, You should not be surprised by me saying, “You must be born again. ” For that is what Jews taught proselytes, they were doing(must do) when they were baptized. Any how, there is much to see in this article of how smooth a transition there was from the Jewish mikveh to John’s baptism to baptism in the name of Christ. http://www.haydid.org/ronimmer.htm
Dwight
I think we both know that there is no point with Grace, it’s clear he’s not interested and doesn’t even read the post or answer the questions put to him, hence his continual posting of the same thing.
Alabama John
Good point. I have thought of this often. And I think it is down to your point there is no fear. We think we can interpret His word any way we want and think God’s fine with that. And then we throw thee old lets just agree to disagree without any passion for lets be unified on this, God wants us to get this and to agree on this. Of course the question is do we? What do you think?
Paul
In Acts 11:17, make no mistake, Peter is defending his baptizing of Gentiles. He is questioned about eating with them and before they(Jews back in Jerusalem can question him about baptizing them) Peter goes on the offensive. He tells in order what happened giving a full account of the events leading up to their baptism. He culminates his actions by saying “Who was I to think I could stand in God’s way? The KJV has him,”What was I, that I could withstand God? Withstand God how Peter? By baptizing them into the name of the Lord. Many commentaries back this up. This was a monumental happening in the history of the church, and it took God intervening on every level to insure it happened as smoothly as possible.
See Bengel’s Gnomen : Τὴν ἴσην, the like) So 2 Peter 1:1. They are alike blessed, who have received the Holy Spirit immediately (without the mediation of ordinances) or mediately.—ἡμῖν, πιστεύσασιν, unto us who believed, i.e. when we believed) It was not, saith he, because we had circumcision, but because we had faith, that the Holy Spirit was given to us.—ἐγὼ, I) I, a mere instrument. The brethren had asked only concerning his having taken food with the Gentiles: Peter gives them also a satisfactory account concerning his having conferred baptism on them; and establishes the certainty that he had acted rightly, not only from the Divine command, but also from the event, which had been crowned by the Divine blessing.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
AJ, I think duscussion are important as long as we keep the scripture firmly in front of us and our biases firmly in back. We have to see through God’s eyes, not ours. It is strange to me that we take the position that God is not interested in works, when this is what the OT law was full of, but He was also interested in the faith that was supposed to drive the works, which got left in the dust by the leaders. But God gave commands for the Jews to do things and even then in Psalms it is written, “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;” So law wasn’t really the problem, but man keeping the law was and God knew this, but still the OT law was good until that which fulfilled the law and made way for a more perfect law came about. We want to make the OT law or any law the villian, but the only real villian is Satan and we are bound under Satan, until we are freed by Jesus, the hero of the narrative. But sometimes, many times, we talk about law too much and too little about love and which one we focus on is how we often live our life. God Bless!
Grace,
I’m sure most readers are (by now) simply scrolling past your cut and paste redundant posts. No one is trying to get you to believe we aren’t saved by grace. But keep fighting those windmills.
Paul,
I agree we must do some works to please God and if our hearts are right we will. Just knowing the law and not doing any works cited in it is wrong and we see much of that. Emphasis is put on baptism, and other churchy things in regards to works and the other works like feeding and taking a care of the widows and orphans, visiting sick and those in prison, etc is left out of our discussions. We pick and choose, yet, some are very plain and easy to interpret but those are hardly ever the topic or concern, but, should be as they are much easier to understand by all.
Lets face it, we like to debate law far more than follow it.
Back a few years ago, there was only the King James version of the bible and even our prayers were in old English language with only Thee and Thou for God.
I was in my twenties before I heard a prayer in the COC calling God or Jesus “you” and cringed as if the roof would cave in. There was big meeting of the men afterward about how disrespectful that was. Now, don’t know how many different interpretations are available and with each comes more differences in us.
That’s why many of are leaning on God seeing our doing, and less of God observing us law debating and straining at the gnat. We’ve had enough of that.
Dwight,
Appreciate your post, my feelings too. My bride and I love your last line especially!!!
Thank you and God bless you.