We are continue to reflect on Michael J. Gorman’s The Death of the Messiah and the Birth of the New Covenant: A (Not So) New Model of the Atonement.
Deuteronomy 30:6
Another path that Gorman might have traveled down is the Old Testament thread beginning with Deu 30:6. It is, in my mind, as central to the Mosaic covenant as, say, the Ten Commandments.
(Deu 30:6-10 ESV) 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. … 8 And you shall again obey the voice of the LORD and keep all his commandments that I command you today. 9 The LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, 10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy records the second giving of the Law, just as the Israelites were preparing to cross the Jordan River to begin the conquest of the Promised Land. It’s in the form of an Ancient Near East treaty. And it therefore concludes with a series of blessings and curses.
Amazingly, Moses predicts Israel’s rejection of God and scattering among the nations as a result of exile. And then God promises that, even if you reject me and I scatter you, I will restore you in repentance. When this happen, I God will transform your hearts so that you will become obedient.
This passage undergirds much of the prophecy of the Old Testament. The kingdom and messianic prophecies expand on just how God will do this — including the outpouring of the Spirit.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Eze 37:12-14 ESV) 12 “Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.”
And, perhaps most importantly, Jeremiah 31, again — which promises,
(Jer 31:33 ESV) 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In short, an essential element of the new covenant, and hence atonement, is God’s work within the individual Christian and within the church to transform hearts and minds to become obedient — by the Spirit.
As a result, the atonement is much more than a forensic transaction, Jesus giving himself for our sins. As true as that is, we do not receive mere forgiveness. Forgiveness cleanses us so that we may receive the Spirit and so receive within ourselves the transforming work of God.
Just as the temple had to be cleansed with blood before God could enter into the Holy of Holies, so must we.
The Spirit
It is the work of the Spirit, promised by the prophets and sent following the death of Jesus, that makes the death of Jesus an existential reality within and among the community of the new covenant. The reality of the Spirit addresses head-on the “under-achievement” of other models. The close relationship of the Spirit to the cross, that is, to atonement, means that, whatever else the cross does, it connects people to God and to one another in a transformative way.
To be saved by the cross of Christ is not only to be forgiven but also to be changed; it is not merely to believe in a past one-time act but to participate in its ongoing, transformative effects — all by the workings of the Spirit. Thus the people of the new covenant effected by God’s action in Jesus’ death are empowered by the Spirit to fulfill the horizontal and vertical demands of the Law, also reconfigured by the cross into a cruciform shape, and to live peaceably.
(Kindle Locations 5650-5656).
Exactly. Jesus himself, when he spoke most directly of the “new covenant,” referenced the Old Testament passages that speak of the coming Spirit.
Why couldn’t the Spirit come before the crucifixion?
Again, I’m getting a little outside of Gorman’s actual writings and instead reflecting on how they connect with my own thinking.
Gorman explains how the Spirit brings into the Christian the essential characteristics — personality traits — of God.
In becoming part of the new-covenant community, human beings take[] on the Christlike holiness of God by the work of the Spirit, and specifically the divine character traits of faithfulness, love, and peace (as in “the God of peace”). They are drawn into the life of the Triune God. They participate in God’s being-expressed-in-acts, God’s narrative identity, God’s very life.
(Kindle Locations 5934-5937).
But Gorman never explains how this happens. Indeed, one feature of his book is that he wants to move away from the “how” to the “what” of atonement. But here I think the “how” matters and bears some serious reflection.
My own thinking comes from a book I read, but I cannot find the quote. Maybe it’s C.S. Lewis. In any event, here’s the idea. We start with —
(Heb 5:7-10 ESV) 7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
In think v. 8 is key. Jesus “learned obedience.”
But this is not to suggest that Jesus had previously been disobedient, and now needed to grasp what it meant to obey the will of God. Rather, authentic obedience is practised in particular, concrete circumstances. So, as Jesus encountered fresh situations — and the focus of the text is on his suffering — his faithfulness to God was challenged, his unfailing obedience to the Father’s will was tested again and again. That testing occurred throughout his suffering which culminated in his death.
Peter T. O’Brien, The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar NTC; Accordance electronic ed. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2009), 201.
Jesus didn’t go from disobedient to obedient but from un-tempted to tempted, from unchallenged to challenged, from immortal to mortal, from Divine to human. And it was only as a human that Jesus could suffer many of the temptations common to all humans.
In the wilderness, Satan tempted Jesus to abuse his powers, to use a miracle to soften the challenge of being human, to become ruler of the world by bowing to Satan, to show off his powers by leaping from the temple. To be selfish. And that’s the most fundamental of all human temptations.
(Heb 2:17-18 ESV) 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
The fact that Jesus was tempted as we were assures us of his sympathy and understanding. But the thought is deeper. His defeat of temptation makes him “able to help” us.
You see, before Jesus lowered himself to become human, he had never been hungry. He’d never felt the urge to have sex with someone he was not married to. He’d never was pressed by the crowds to do more than he could physically do. And he’d never felt pain — much less the agony of crucifixion.
After the crucifixion, not only had Jesus experienced the painfulness of humanity, he’d experienced overcoming. He’d prevailed! And now, by the Spirit, Jesus is able to give us this part of himself — a part that previously did not exist.
(Joh 7:37-39 ESV) 37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Why did Jesus have to wait to send the Spirit until he rejoined the Father? Because the Spirit could not have shared in Jesus’ sufferings and temptations and overcoming until these things had happened. But once that happened, the Spirit could impart to Christians the nature of Jesus — and strengthen us to live as Jesus lived.
(Heb 2:10 ESV) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
How does suffering make Jesus — Jesus! — “perfect”? Well, “perfect” doesn’t mean sinless so much as complete or, better yet, completed for its intended purpose. Suffering prepared Jesus to form a community that could suffer as he did — if necessary — to bring about the perfection of all things.
This understanding of atonement, sometimes called the participatory model, has its roots in Jesus and Paul, comes to vibrant expression in some of the church fathers, and is enjoying a revival today. It says Christ became what we are so we could become what he is. The new-covenant model would focus on this ancient soteriology, stressing its connection to the covenant-fulfilling death of Jesus. When we participate in Jesus’ faithful and loving death by the power of the Spirit, we both benefit from and embody Jesus’ covenant-fulfilling love for God and neighbor.
(Kindle Locations 5615-5618).
The church and its members are to be like Jesus in his service, submission, sacrifice, and — yes, even suffering. But we can endure what we suffer because Jesus did — and the Spirit shares this part of Jesus’ experience and existence with us as we need it.
(Joh 16:13-15 ESV) 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
(2Co 4:6-12 ESV) 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.
(1Jo 5:18-20 ESV) 18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
It’s not just that we’re forgiven, but we’re empowered to prevail by the Son giving us that which is his. This is found in enduring temptation and in suffering, but the result is God’s own protection for us.
Sounds like atonement.
Jeremiah 31 are great passages that tell us a lot. I especially love the beauty of the Jeremiah 31:31-37 passages.
Jeremiah (31:31) says that there is another covenant the Lord will make that is the New Covenant and (31:32) describes the covenant the Lord made when He brought His people out of Egypt, the older covenant in this passage is the Mosaic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant being broken was a necessary prologue to the presentation of the New Covenant. The fact of the people’s failure under the Mosaic Covenant to keep the laws and it was incumbent on both parties to the covenant it had been broken. The passages of Jeremiah 31:31-37 breaks down into three basic sections. In the first section, the Lord announces the coming of a New Covenant, unlike the Old Covenant when they were brought out of Egypt (31:31-32). The second section of this passage (31:33-34) describes the key characteristics of the New Covenant. Finally, in the last section, the Lord asserts the immutability, eternality, and permanence of both the nation of Israel, and the New Covenant by proxy (31:35-37).
In these passages the Lord continues His assertion of His power to preserve Israel by noting that unless the heavens can be measured, and the foundations of the Earth can be searched out below, then Israel will remain. Here the Lord calls to focus not divine power, but divine knowledge. By adding this clause the passage requires one to not only have abilities that only the Lord Himself posses, but it also requires that one know the Lord’s own secrets. The declaration protects Israel by virtue that the Lord would not turn against His people, since the Lord has the power, and the intention to preserve the nation of Israel, thus the Lord lays out for the reader His duel role as Israel’s physical protector, and spiritual protector.
These passages reflect the will of the Lord in regards to His people. The Lord desires relationship with His people, and will stop at nothing to do what is necessary to provide for right relationship to be played out. In this sense these passages not only serves as a prophecy of the New Covenant, but also serves as a testimony of God’s intense love, and eternal faithfulness to His people.
People today seek to interpret prophecy saying things like, “God is done with the nation of Israel”, and the horrible unbiblical teachings of replacement theology.
The passages in Ezekiel 36-39 are about God’s promise to the Jewish people. God tells Ezekiel to speak prophesy about all the Jewish people being back in the land He promised them that will take place during end of times.
All the way through God has affirmed His perpetual, eternal love for His people, the Jewish people, Israel. And that He would never cast them off forever, but He is definitely going to work with them once again for they are His people and though He has blinded their eyes for a time, yet the day will come when the whole Jewish nation will know their Messiah and they again will enjoy the blessings in His land during the Kingdom Age after His Second Coming.
Ezekiel 37:1-14 I felt the powerful presence of the LORD, and His Spirit took me and set me down in a valley where the ground was covered with bones. He led me all around the valley, and I could see that there were very many bones and that they were very dry. He said to me, “Mortal man, can these bones come back to life?”
I replied, “Sovereign LORD, only you can answer that!”
He said, “Prophesy to the bones. Tell these dry bones to listen to the word of the LORD. Tell them that I, the Sovereign LORD, am saying to them: I am going to put breath into you and bring you back to life. I will give you sinews and muscles, and cover you with skin. I will put breath into you and bring you back to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.”
So I prophesied as I had been told. While I was speaking, I heard a rattling noise, and the bones began to join together. While I watched, the bones were covered with sinews and muscles, and then with skin. But there was no breath in the bodies.
God said to me, Mortal man, prophesy to the wind. Tell the wind that the Sovereign LORD commands it to come from every direction, to breathe into these dead bodies, and to bring them back to life.
So I prophesied as I had been told. Breath entered the bodies, and they came to life and stood up. There were enough of them to form an army.
God said to me, Mortal man, the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL are like these bones. They say that they are dried up, without any hope and with no future. So prophesy TO MY PEOPLE ISRAEL and tell them that I, the Sovereign LORD, am going to open their graves. I am going to take them out and BRING THEM BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. When I open the graves where my people are buried and bring them out, they will know that I am the LORD. I will put my breath in them, bring them back to life, and let them live in their own land. Then they will know that I am the LORD. I have promised that I would do this—and I will. I, the LORD, have spoken.
Jay while we may struggle with sin our entire human existence even if we overcome one there is another waiting to be battled and overcome right behind it. I have long since believed that atonement in context of a new is not only the Spirits power to continually overcome sin but to live out the sacrifice, suffering and life we are called to. In fact I believe that overcoming sin is a lot harder if we are not putting something in it’s place. If you want to overcome greed in your life eventually you will have to put on generosity. The atonement of the Spirit helps us overcome greed by seeing the need of the others and being provoked to be generous. This is one of the ways that I believe atonement works in the new covenant. The example of greed and generosity can be analogously applied as a global microcosm for any sin we deal with and any growth of the Spirit we seek to put on.
Grace, I believe Jay and most who comment here do not propose that God is replacing Israel. Rather, that He is pruning Israel of those who are disobedient and grafting the obedient Gentiles into Israel’s root-stock. The result is the church, whom Paul reminds us, stands by faith, the lack of which led to national Israel’s fall.
So, in Galatians 3:29 those who are “in Christ” are “Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise” of Genesis 12:1-3, et. al. passages. Paul also states in Romans 9:6 that “they are not all Israel who are of Israel.” In other words, the spiritual Israel is not the equivalent of national Israel, though a “remnant” of national Israel remains (see Romans 11:1ff). Will those who have been blinded repent and return to God? Paul does hold out some hope for that in Romans 11:15ff, which is a consummation greatly to be desired. Some also understand Romans 11:26 to speak of this, though I myself am not sure that “all Israel” here means “all national Israel.” I believe that this is a reference to spiritual Israel.
Jerry said: “The result is the church.” and “Paul does hold out some hope for that in Romans 11:15ff, which is a consummation greatly to be desired.”
(Buzz) Wrong answer. The Scriptures do not say Israel’s rejection is the result of the church. The promise is made to Israel, which there has always been a remnant (Romans 11:1). And Paul didn’t just hold some hope for Israel to return to the Lord, he knew God’s promise to the Jewish people throughout the Hebrew Scriptures are all true, including that one day all of them will return to their land and know their Messiah. And it is then that God keeps His covenant to bless the Jewish people.
Romans 11:27 Then all the Jews will be saved, as the Holy Writings say, “The One Who saves from the punishment of sin will come out of Jerusalem. He will turn the Jews from doing sinful things.
The Jewish Messiah was killed, for the sins of Israel and for the world, bringing salvation not only to Judah, but the whole world.
Most of the Jews rejected the Messiah, but not all of them. It was Jewish people who started the church. From the Jews who rejected Him, the gospel is given not only to the Jews but also the Gentiles.
The Covenants, all of them, were made to Israel, not all of sudden to the church, God did not replace Israel with the church. The promises have always been and will always be to Israel, the Jewish people. And they all will be fulfilled. Do Gentiles in the church, being grafted in through Israel, benefit from the blessings given to Israel, absolutely. But the promises and the blessing are to them.
God says in the prophecies that Israel, the Jewish people will all turn to Him one day and they will then enjoy the blessings in their land as He has promised to them. We, Gentiles in the church, get to benefit in the blessing they receive.
“The Covenants, all of them, were made to Israel,” The was no Israel when Abram believed God. The promise, according to Paul, a Jewish rabbi, is outside of Israel, whose covenant you point out was made when He led them out of Egypt.
Galatians 3: 6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”…
God began His plan to establish the nation of Israel with His promise to Abraham, the forefather of Israel. As with this, all the covenants were made to Israel, and God keeps His promises. All the blessings that God promised to the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to establish His kingdom.
Grace,
Evidently, you are not in the present kingdom of Christ otherwise the Spirit would allow you to see it and understand how it exists.
really Larry – you say Grace is not in the present kingdom. Pretty strong words, especially the part about otherwise the Spirit would lead her to see it the way you see it. Sounds pretty Church of Christy to me.
Hesed,
Randall
Randall, Larry was respondig to Graces statement about Jesus returning to establish His kingdom, which means that she doesn’t believe that His kingdom exist now and thus she must not be in it and she must not admit to Christ as King if this is the case. If Christ is Kingm, then His kingdom is established already. The problem is that the scriptures talk of Christ as King and the kingdom being there for Him to reign and that His kingdom was established during the time of the apostles. Jesus never said that His kingdom would be established on the earth, much to the chagrin of the apostles, but rather said that His kingdom was in heaven. To wait for something to come that has already been established is to not understand the scriptures and God’s intent.
God fulfilled the promise to Abraham in giving his children the land and the only thing left was the promise “that all nations shall be blessed.” Since Israel was just one nation, this had to include all of the nations and thus Jesus fulfilled this promise. God never made a promise to Israel that was not already kept. I’m not anti-Jewish, but Christianity, called the perfect Law of Liberty, exceeds all Jewish and gentile laws and includes all Jewish and gentile people. This was Peter’s revelation with the sheets in that the genitles too could be brought into the flock as a child of God.
this is not unique to the CofC but it is common there: find a point of disagreement and then say the other person “must” believe this and that when we have no idea whether they do or not. Instead of being charitable in our assumptions about the other person’s understanding we go the other way and write/say things that may be both incorrect and hurtful.
A wonderful example of going the other way and being being both kind and charitable is John mark Hicks, For example, read his review of Muscle and Shovel or anything on his blog. Such kind and edifying comments are an encouragement to us all.
Hesed,
Randall
Wow! Don’t you just love the condemnation that people get from some in the CofC camp when you disagree with them. Larry and Dwight have pronounced me condemned, that I’m not part of God’s kingdom and that I do not admit that Christ is King.
Was Jesus, the apostles, and all the prophecies wrong about the Jewish people when He returns? I don’t believe that Jesus, the apostles or any of the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures are wrong about Israel and His Second Coming.
Israel, the Jewish nation, has not been fully restored. When Israel, all the Jewish people, return to their land and know Jesus their Messiah, the Scriptures tell us that the kingdom of God will be a glorious reality, God’s kingdom will be established on earth. Believers know that Christ is a King even now, but we yearn for the day when He will return in His glory and power in a great and dramatic way to stop all human suffering. The prophecies concerning national Israel are literal and will have a dramatic impact on all of humanity just before and after Jesus Christ’s return to earth. The Scriptures are replete with references about Israel, the Jewish nation, being restored with the coming kingdom of God that will rule on the earth from Jerusalem.
It’s really not very Christian to put words in someone’s mouth that were never said. There are plenty of comments I’ve made before about what I believe is now in the heart of every believer and what is to come to not only Israel but to every believer when Christ returns. Larry’s and Dwight’s attacks on me are simply not true. They are either mislead in their own thoughts or are using misleading words to try to pronounce me condemned.
Here is a comment I made earlier on another post:
There is a spiritual kingdom, which is God’s rule, in the heart of every believer. This is an invisible spiritual kingdom. In this way, we are in the kingdom. However, there is a literal kingdom, a Messianic rule by Jesus that will commence after His Second Coming when He will be physically present to rule from Israel for 1000 years and the saints with Him. This is the true kingdom on earth that we are to be patiently waiting for.
And no doubt, I so looked to when professing Christians are no longer misguided to use hateful speech being displayed by so many.
And no doubt, I so look to when professing Christians are no longer misguided to use hateful speech being displayed by so many.
Grace and Randall, I have never condemned you and I do not find any of the writings where Larry has condemned you either, just because we disagree with you. You appear to have us confused with others who do condemn when they disagree and there are plenty. And we never said you “must” agree with us or believe this and I have read most of Larry’s entries on this thread. And I don’t know of anyone who has said anything hateful or put words in your mouth.
The question is how can you consider yourself already a part of the kingdom if the kingdom is yet to come? Either we see Christ as King over His kingdom now or we don’t.
I simply pointed out that Grace had said that, “All the blessings that God promised to the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to establish His kingdom”, so I assumed she meant that the kingdom had not been established yet. This is what she has said and just said in the above thread in that the spiritual kingdom is not a literal kingdom. This belies the fact that Jesus calls it a literal kingdom…His kingdom.
Jesus alludes to His kingdom as being heavenly, even when He was asked by his apostles when this earthly kingdom would come. We seem to take prophecies that are obscure in time and placement from Daniel-Revelations over Jesus own words that it was then during His time.
If we can be in Jesus Kingdom now and receive heaven with God as our reward, then why an earthly kingdom that is not alluded to and so highly prized? Heaven is mentioned hundreds of times in the gospels as the reward, never earth.
II Cor.5:1-2 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,”
I cor.4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power
I Thess.2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
There is little reason to want anything more or anything less than what God has promised us and that we are already a part of in spirit.
Okay, great Dwight. You disagree with what Grace has written and then you “assumed she meant that the kingdom had not been established yet.” I am sure you have heard the old adage that when we assume it makes an ass of u and me. I do not mean to imply that you are an ass. I simply want to point out that b/c we see things one way we shouldn’t assume the other person thus believes this and that. Further, we should neither imply nor state that the other person is not a citizen in God’s kingdom. You may be a-mil, pre-mil, post-mil or pan-mil. It doesn’t determine your status with God one way or the other.
Hesed,
Randall
Isn’t it great when people take what you say and completely twist it to say something you haven’t. How people can take a word from a sentence to contort it to be saying something else takes crafty training skills.
I said: “There is a spiritual kingdom, which is God’s rule, in the heart of every believer. This is an invisible spiritual kingdom. In this way, we are in the kingdom.”
I really believe this is true, I wouldn’t have said it if don’t believe it to be true.
“However, there is a literal kingdom, a Messianic rule by Jesus that will commence after His Second Coming when He will be physically present to rule from Israel for 1000 years and the saints with Him.”
As it is obvious, there are people on here who do not believe this to be literal. Some people seek to teach and explain away the literal meaning in the Scriptures of Christ reigning on earth from Jerusalem after His Second Coming. They say that all the Scriptures referencing this are to be taken as symbolism and allegory that it is really not to be taken at face value.
Just by the conflicts that happen on this blog alone, it should be obvious we’re not physically in God’s kingdom yet. We are spiritually in the kingdom, absolutely, but the kingdom has not come to the earth to be established, yet. The final battle has not happened, Satan is still here.
Grace,
I am very sorry that we cannot ask you a question about what you believe without you taking offence. Actually, it was the answer to the statement that I had made which would have served to identify whether you were condemned or not. I did not imply either way about your salvation. You have said many times in many ways that the kingdom has not come. If the kingdom had not come how could you be in it?
I see that I need to help you to understand how I arrived to the conclusion that you were not in the kingdom. I could not remember a time when I read a communication that you had written where you identified that you were in the Christs Spiritual Kingdom. I now have read what you wrote in the last post.
“I said: “There is a spiritual kingdom, which is God’s rule, in the heart of every believer. This is an invisible spiritual kingdom. In this way, we are in the kingdom. I really believe this is true, I wouldn’t have said it if don’t believe it to be true.”
I would also ask if you understand this Spiritual Kingdom to be a place to which any and all of those who accept Christs salvation in this physical world are added? Which would identify that this is a worldwide Kingdom which contains all who are saved? There are no race or nationality distinctions within this Kingdom. There will be no saved except those in the Kingdom.
Let me say this another way, The Book of Revelation identifies that the sayings of this book will shortly come to pass, it has been many generations ago, many have died and many more may die prior to Christs second coming, some in this spiritual kingdom and some not. Will those who died without committing their lives to Christ, when raised from the dead, automatically become members of this physical kingdom which you speak?
Grace wrote:
What I actually wrote was
Grace needs to heed her own advice about misreading what someone else has written. I nor anyone else commenting here has maintained that Israel was rejected because of the church Rather, I said that the church is the pruned Israel plus the grafted-in Gentiles, who are spoken of as children of Abraham by faith in King Jesus (Gal. 3:26-29 and other passages).
I did say that Paul holds out some hope for the eventual restoration of “all Israel” in Romans 11:15ff, but that was after he had earlier written “For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” (Romans 9:6).
Grace, please respond to what people say, not to what you have imagined they say.
Kindness is such a rare commodity, and it is tragic that so many, even in the church, haven’t learned this virtue. Some brethren appear unable to approach an issue except in attack mode.
While kindness is disdained by the brutal and goes unappreciated by the insensitive, it is applauded and commended by some.
So thank you Randall for the kindness you have in your dialogue on here.
Jerry, Where is it in my comment that you said Israel was rejected because of the church? It’s not in my comment that you said that.
I said in my reply to you:
“The Scriptures do not say Israel’s rejection is the result of the church.
How you twisted that to say something it doesn’t is beyond reason.
Grace wrote:
Grace, please forgive me for misunderstanding what you wrote to indicate that you were implying that I had said Israel’s rejection was because of the church. The Scripture actually says it was because of their unbelief. Paul also said that his hope was that the acceptance of the Gentiles would lead to the restoration of his Jewish brethren. Again, you mis-characterized what I said, the very thing you have accused others of doing to you. Incident closed, as far as I am concerned.