Back in July 2014, I posted a series on baptism, and a subset of that series consisted of 5 lessons on “Is Baptism a Work?”
Here are the links:
Baptism: Is Baptism a “Work”? Part 1
Baptism: Is Baptism a “Work”? Part 2
Baptism: Is Baptism a “Work”? Part 3 (Further on the Definition of “Works”)
Baptism: Is Baptism a “Work”? Part 4 (Alternative Theories)
Baptism: Is Baptism a “Work”? Part 5 (If Baptism Isn’t a Work … )
And for some reason, going back to July 2, 2014, Part 1 has generated nearly 400 comments, which is, I believe, a One In Jesus record. That’s a lot of time and lot of writing. But we seem to be reverting to old habits, old ways of thinking, and not making much progress toward truth.
I’m going to close comments at the July 2 post, so that the discussion will move over here. But over here, I would like to limit the discussion to answering these questions (I’m open to other questions for discussion. Let me know. But I think it’s time to narrow the questions to stop going in circles.)
1. Imagine that you live in the late First Century. Someone gives you a copy of the Gospel of Luke, and this is the only New Testament resource you have. Can you, by reading Luke, find salvation? Does the Gospel of Luke offer enough information to its readers so that they can be saved?
2. There are dozens of “faith is sufficient to save” verses. There are several “baptism is necessary to save” verses. How do we reconcile these seemingly inconsistent passages? You MAY NOT insist that your verses somehow magically “explain” or otherwise override the other verses. The question is whether there is an understanding that makes ALL the verses true, not just the ones that support your denominational position.
3. Does the “gospel,” as the term is used in the Gospels, include water baptism?
4. Is water baptism an element of pistis (the Greek word for faith)? (If you argue that faith implies obedience and obedience implies baptism, then what other acts of obedience are as essential as baptism?)
5. What are the essential elements of a real, efficacious baptism? And by “essential” I mean God absolutely will not save you if you miss this element — regardless of your faith, your repentance, or confession. If you miss an essential element, you are without hope.
That should be enough to break out of the circle and perhaps discover something you didn’t already know.
Q1 will take some time to reread Luke with that in mind.
Q2: I find baptism to be a public proclamation of faith in Jesus. It is also a way of accepting what God says he will do for me. Why God chose to put those things in terms of baptism, I have no idea. But it these ideas of proclamation and acceptance that make baptism significant.
Q3: No, baptism is not part of the gospel, it is our response to the gospel
Q4: Baptism is evidence of faith. Dropping an apple is evidence of gravity, but will anyone argue that dropping an apple IS gravity?
Q5: For me, the only essential component of baptism is the intent of the person being baptized. Otherwise, it’s just swimming.
#1. impossible question to answer _ I know of no place where it is said that people had access to Luke’s writings in the first century.
#2. they are both very necessary you can’t have one without the other. baptism without faith is an action in futility. Faith in Jesus without baptism is a lie.
#3. Yes baptism into Jesus Christ is very good news, you cannot be saved without baptism into Jesus death, and resurrection..
4. There is no single act that grants you a place with Jesus Christ. You will be judged by the word of God, and how you treat his Son, and all his other children.
#5 Belief in the power of God to save through the message he sent by his Son. Baptism into Jesus, you can only get to God through Jesus.
I think the last statement Laymond is very true…Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life…I am the door. What we fail to often see is that Jesus is not referring to His word, but to Himself. His word tells us about Him and God, but to get to God you have to go through Jesus. How does one go through Jesus? Faith….gets us to believe and trust in Jesus …but to go through Him requires that we travel…the way…through the door. Baptism is that door. We are baptized in Christ, buried with Christ and raised anew in Christ. He died for us with our sins. We must die in Him carrying the old world to the grave and rising to live as a new creature. Of course we must live n the light, which is Jesus in word and in deed. If baptism is not part of the gospel, then what did Phillip tell the eunuch and how did the eunuch respond and then how did he respond after he was baptized. He rejoiced. Good News indeed.
Is it still true that we need to view and understand scriptural instructions through the mindset or the understanding of those that were reading the scriptures for the first time? In their time frame, with the knowledge that they would have obtained through the teaching that they had received when they lived on earth. Just an observation, could we have modernized the message so much that those Jews and early Christians would not recognize the message?
Jay,
I posted the message prior to reading your comment.
1. Imagine that you live in the late First Century. Someone gives you a copy of the Gospel of Luke, and this is the only New Testament resource you have. Can you, by reading Luke, find salvation? Does the Gospel of Luke offer enough information to its readers so that they can be saved?
I agree that this is a very good place to start, but noticing the very first verses observe that this letter was not addressed to the lost. Luke wrote this letter to Christians. He identifies it for them and specifically to Theophilus, who was also a Christian. Why would we believe that he would communicate information that you are asking us to find?
Luk 1:1-4 ESV Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, (2) just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, (3) it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, (4) that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.
Then we should consider the environment and availability of copies, I believe that for a lost soul to be handed this letter by a Christian who expected the lost soul to be able to find instructions therein that would direct him how to become a Christian, would not exist. During the time when Luke was righting this letter, I believe that all communications to lost souls would have been verbal. Even then the message would not have been broadcast to the general public in a public area because of the persecution near the year 85 A.D..
I looked up all forms of the words in ESV (salvation = 5 and save = 13) read the surrounding text and found nothing directing a lost soul how to become a Christian.
Yet, saying all that, one of the most powerful statements about baptism was given by Jesus.
Luk 7:29-30 ESV (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just, having been baptized with the baptism of John, (30) but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)
Men who refused John’s baptism, rejected God’s purpose for them. Notice, it does not even give an option to those which might have believed but did not submit to baptism.
Jesus is the only Way! Not anyone or anything else is.
Why did Jesus die if our good and such great performance get us right standing before God?
All fall short of the glory of God…that is except those from the CofC denomination.
Christ death didn’t take away our responsibility in responding towards God, but gave us an avenue through which we could respond.
We can also ask, “Why did Jesus die if our faith gets us right before God?” after all doesn’t Jesus death do it all and answer all questions and save man despite us doing anything and faith is a response.
There is hardly anyone I know within the coC that declare themselves sinless and not in need of God, but there are a few out there, but they are like .001% of the whole.and I have seen this in other groups as well. I dont’ think you have heard anyone here declare that they are sinless even in thier faith and work, but they probably will respond that they are in a relationship with Christ and God’s grace. You seem to be very biased against the people within the coC, without giving credence to the fact that everyone with in the coC are different and the coC doesn’t have a creed that is forced on everyone unlike some other groups that you might agree with.
Grace,
I know of no one in the CofC who believes they can be saved apart from Jesus. I know many who believe that what we do after we get saved matters. It matters that we walk with God in the light. Not perfect obedience, but not without any obedience either. We can’t accept Jesus, and continue to live in darkness. If God instructed man to be baptized upon believing in HIs Son, then obeying that command is having faith in God. To not be baptized (if indeed God instructed it as part of obeying the gospel)shows a lack of faith or that someone has been led astray by erroneous teaching.
If God didn’t command baptism to all new believers upon faith in Jesus, then they who command new believers to be baptized would be in error.
Peter commanded baptism to those on Pentecost, and to Cornelius and family. Ananias commanded Paul to be baptized to wash away sins. Peter tied it to the forgiveness of sins in Acts 2:38. Obviously, Paul commanded the Philippian jailor and his family upon their believing in Jesus. For they did it at midnight(can’t conceive of Paul giving it as an option).
It’s obvious that those who taught the gospel after the resurrection of Jesus commanded baptism of new believers. Jesus commanded they baptized new believers. The Bible is clear about what to do with new believers. Why are we having so much trouble today?
IMO we get to hung up on dated arguments of works versus grace and so forth. We use different terminology than scripture when referring to baptism. We don’t look at how baptism is used in the context of each Biblical example. It’s just too easy for most to say works won’t save, let’s put baptism in the works category, therefore baptism isn’t necessary.
What should be painfully evident to any student of scripture is that baptism is commanded of new believers. IF we can’t get past that fact then there isn’t any real dialogue that can take place as has been witnessed on here. Jesus commanded it, the apostles commanded it(not suggested it), not thought it would be a great thing to do at some point, no, they always commanded it. Forget about who thinks it’s necessary and who doesn’t. If teachers and preachers, would just do what they did, I doubt we’re having this conversation.
Command newbies to be baptized, upon coming to faith is Jesus. I know that is overly simplistic, but I believe it’s scriptural. Let’s leave all the what if’s to God, but let’s also not create opportunities for a bunch of what ifs, either. Immediate baptisms, like in the Bible, rule a lot of that stuff out. I doubt that some will even be able to concede the commanding of new believers to be baptized. On what basis, other than the tired old argument of it being a work. You got me.
I’ve never said Christians shouldn’t be doing the things God wants us to, of course we should. When have I said we shouldn’t? I believe Christians should be baptized, eat and drink of the Lord’s Supper, help the poor and sick, give shelter to those who have none, and visit those who are in prison, ect..
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Luke, Peter or Paul never called the Holy Spirit a sign as you want to call Him.
The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is not an energy or a concept. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. He is God.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Monty, I have made a similar argument in regards to Peter and his adherence to the teaching of baptism. If baptism isn’t complicant in salvation, then Jesus and Peter were both wrong in saying it was and then Peter and the other apostles were wrong for carrying it forward through out Acts and the people who responded in this way such as in Acts 2 were wrong as well. We have a whole lot of wrong people with a wrong concept that we look up to and regard as those closest to Jesus and His teaching. Paul, who wrote Romans (which is supposedly a strike against baptism) said in Acts 19 “Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”
So Paul was wrong too for actively doing something that he thought was just a work? Hardly.
This is Jay’s format and he asked comments to focus on the questions he asked and not rehash previous comments.
I am more than fine with that. I will limit myself then to that.
“It is not my place or your place to COMMAND anyone to do ANYTHING”
I’m sorry, but this is just plain weird,(I hope that’s not too strong a word), I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts, be we(Christians, are commissioned by Jesus to “go into all the world and make disciples, baptizing them.” Do we, or they, have a choice in the matter of baptism, if they want to be disciples? Peter commanded hearers to “Repent and be baptized everyone of you” , now they certainly could choose to not be saved, but where is the wiggle room on baptism if they chose to save themselves from that wicked generation? Was baptism something they could shirk and still be saved? In the case of Cornelius and family, Peter “commanded them to be baptized.” The early church was comprised of all who believed and had been baptized into Christ(has that changed in 2000 years?)….Paul was commanded to be baptized…(that is, if he wanted his sins washed away)he was told what “he must do.” Where is the take it or leave it in his case?
The gospel is certainly an invitation to the party(marriage supper of the Lamb), it’s free of charge and everyone is invited, it just seems from my reading all who accepted the invitation had to wear proper attire. They weren’t “invited” to dress a certain way(that means you can take it or leave it). No, there was one proper attire, and that was to clothe yourself with Christ , in baptism.
This is my last post on the subject of baptism for now. I appreciate Jay’s efforts to streamline the conversations. I just feel the scope of his questions are too broad. If we can’t even agree that it was commanded(not suggested or should be, if they so choose) of believers, then where do we go from there? Jesus is Lord, and according to some, all he commands is belief. If he commands anything else, other than believing as a condition of pardon, then meeting that condition is man’s work and not grace. It presents a false dichotomy in my estimation.
Merry Christmas, to all, in the name of Jesus!
I am very glad that Jay has posted that we take a look Luke in reference to salvation, because there is some very powerful information there that will contest much of the comments that have been appearing.
The many of the comments are desirous of accepting individuals into the kingdom without having been baptized. They are basing their ideas upon observing the dedication, faith and works of individuals who have never been baptized. Surely, God would accept individuals who exhibit a greater amount of these traits than many who have been baptized. To insure that these individuals are accepted as saved, we have searched in many areas of scripture for a gleam of hope to prove their acceptance. But, our Lord has made some very powerful statements in the recording of Luke, Matthew and Mark
Luk 20:3-5 ESV He answered them, “I also will ask you a question. Now tell me, (4) was the baptism of John from heaven or from man?” (5) And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’
Mat 21:25 ESV The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Mar 11:29-31 ESV Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. (30) Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man? Answer me.” (31) And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
As we read the comments of those who Jesus asked the question, it is not hard to understand that they actually believed that the baptism was from Heaven, but they understood the implications if they admitted it was from Heaven. Therefore, they just refused to state their belief.
Maybe we should notice that in Jesus’ communications he never once implied that the baptism belonged to John. I don’t believe that anyone can produce scripture that proves that John was the author of baptism if not the author it was not his.
I believe that it is also appropriate that we could be asked the same question by Jesus. What is the source of baptism from Heaven or from men? How are you going to answer that question?
Have you noticed John’s messages carefully that brought so many to him for baptism?
Let’s start in Luke, then Matthew, then Mark and then John.
Luk 3:3-4 ESV And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (4) As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mat 3:1-3 ESV In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, (2) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (3) For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.'”
Continued
Mar 1:1-5 ESV The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (2) As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, (3) the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,'” (4) John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (5) And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Joh 1:6-8 ESV There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. (8) He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Joh 1:26-33 ESV John answered them, “I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, (27) even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” (28) These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing. (29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (30) This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ (31) I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” (32) And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. (33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
John had been sent to prepare the way of the Lord, but notice his messages in the passages above.
John began his preaching approximately 6 months prior to his meeting Jesus. The only record of him speaking of Jesus was the day before he baptized Jesus. Notice the context of the teachings and pleading of John’s messages prior. Many came to be baptized of him because of the message concerning forgiveness of sins. Notice the messages that John presented to the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Luk 3:7-8 ESV He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Mat 3:7-9 ESV But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (9) And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
After Jesus was baptized, we notice this message in the Book of John.
Joh 3:22-28 ESV After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. (23) John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (24) (for John had not yet been put in prison). (25) Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. (26) And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (27) John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. (28) You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’
Continued
Joh 4:1-2 ESV Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (2) (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
Now, a major question is placed before us. If the disciples of Jesus were baptizing individuals with Jesus present, what kind of a message would we expect them to tell those who were being baptized? Again, if Jesus was there what need would there have been to baptize? Since there is no record that the message was different than the message that John was preaching, should we conclude that it was the same?
Would your concept of this event change as you observe what just preceded this event? Remember that Jesus was there and his conversation with Nicodemus was recorded just prior to his disciples baptizing those who were coming to be baptized.
Joh 3:1-7 ESV Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. (2) This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” (3) Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (4) Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Would this baptizing in water be the event which Jesus was speaking? If not then what was Jesus purpose, being a participant (not actually immersing anyone but there in support of his disciples) while they were immersing individuals in the same manner as John the Baptist?
So now we have identified that there was baptizing by John and by Jesus’ Disciples prior to Jesus’ death on the Cross.
The scriptures state that John message was proclaiming for the (remission or forgiveness) of sins, and this is why the people were responding to him.
Mar 1:4-5 ESV John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (5) And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Luk 3:1-3 ESV In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, (2) during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. (3) And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
For Jesus and his Disciples to be performing the same act of baptizing, they would have been teaching the same message, unless they stated and recorded another message.
How powerful was this baptism that John was administering? Notice what John said.
Mat 3:5-9 ESV Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (9) And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Continued
Luk 3:4-8 ESV As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (5) Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, (6) and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'” (7) He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
John’s words state that by coming to him for baptism, they would have safety from the wrath to come. Does that not sound like salvation?
Notice what Luke said about those who did not submit to baptism by John.
Luk 7:24-30 ESV When John’s messengers had gone, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? (25) What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are dressed in splendid clothing and live in luxury are in kings’ courts. (26) What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. (27) This is he of whom it is written, “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ (28) I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” (29) (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just, having been baptized with the baptism of John, (30) but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)
John did not bring Jesus to the earth. He did not use Jesus to draw the Israelites to baptism. His message was about remission of sins, that was what lead many to his baptism. Was the baptism that John performed capable to remove sins? It was the purpose of God which the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected. Given the context would you think that these men who claimed to be believers in God would be excused from obedience because of their beliefs?
Baptism came from Heaven (John introduced it to the world as the “WAY” the path that was set straight for the Lord) Jesus and his Disciples were also applying this to those who would come to obey their teaching. This baptism was set into place then prior to Jesus death and was continued on the Day of Pentecost to those who were being forgiven of their sins.
Now for those of you who chose not to believe that baptism is necessary.
All you need to do is direct us to an example after Pentecost where an individual was saved or forgiven without having submitted to baptism. I may need to remind you that all communications after Acts in the scriptures was directed to Christians (baptized believers).
Many also want to trust their feelings as to whether they are accepted of Christ. But, this scripture addresses where an individuals knowledge of his salvation is proven.
1Jn 2:3-6 ESV And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (5) but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: (6) whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Baptism was practiced long before John the Baptist came along, it was based on Hebrew Scriptures that was given by God. It was a common practice ever since the Torah was given at Sinai.
Only the blood of Jesus’s sacrifice can take away our sins.
In response to Jay’s questions:
1. The Book of Luke provides ample information for anyone to find salvation within this “Gospel” text. It speaks of the birth, baptism, teachings, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is sufficient information to find salvation from God.
2. To maintain that “faith” and “baptism” or “repentance” or any other component of “faith” are mutually exclusive is incorrect. Faith and baptism are not in opposition to one another; they are mutually inclusive or complementary. Trying to build a road map to a salvation destination using one or select verses (proof texts) is counterproductive and bad theology. The term “obey the Gospel” referring to baptism isn’t found in Scripture and teaches an incorrect concept of understanding what the Gospel is.
3. The word “Gospel” as it is used in Luke and the “Gospels” does NOT include water baptism. The “Good News of Jesus Christ” speaks of the coming to earth, the sin of mankind, God’s desire for reconciliation to mankind, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, and God’s promise of eternal salvation.
4. Water baptism is an element of “pistis” as is repentance, confession of belief, confession of sin, submission to the authority of God, forgiveness and acts of love and compassion toward our fellow man. Jesus sets the bar of judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 in the discussion of “the sheep and the goats”, that what determines our judgment is: ’35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ It would seem to me that Jesus specifically said that this describes “pistis.”
5. Baptism’s purpose and meaning is best described/defined in Romans 6:3-10. If we experience true Spiritual conversion, then it seems that Romans 6 explains our experience. As for the means, the New Testament texts illustrate baptism as immersion in water. I believe we would do best to imitate and follow those illustrations. It is what I teach the Scripture says about the means of water baptism. I will suggest it to those who have not experienced it. I will not judge the validity of anyone’s baptism by any other means. I find no Scripture that teaches or indicates that baptism is simply a response to complete a mathematical equation for the purpose of obtaining salvation (hear + believe + repent + confess + baptism = salvation.) However, it is an act of physical submission demonstrated by many in New Testament texts.
During His ministry, Jesus and His disciples taught and administered John’s baptism of repentance and the forgiveness of sins. Paul, in Acts 19: “1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
I Peter 3 explains the relationship of the baptized with the Gospel after comparing it to the water that “saved” Noah: “21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Luke, Peter or Paul never called the Holy Spirit a sign as some here want to call Him.
The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is not an energy or a concept. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. He is God.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace says:
December 22, 2014 at 12:56 pm
I’ve never said Christians shouldn’t be doing the things God wants us to, of course we should. When have I said we shouldn’t? I believe Christians should be baptized, eat and drink of the Lord’s Supper, help the poor and sick, give shelter to those who have none, and visit those who are in prison, ect..
Grace you admit you think we should obey God’s commands. But let’s put it like this, do you think we MUST, in order to be saved.
I’ve never said Christians shouldn’t be doing the things God wants us to, of course we should. When have I said we shouldn’t? I believe Christians should be baptized, eat and drink of the Lord’s Supper, help the poor and sick, give shelter to those who have none, and visit those who are in prison, ect..
The sin debt I owe to God is paid in full by my Lord and Savior, my King, Jesus Christ! It is Jesus Christ and what He did to pay for my sins that gets me into heaven. Praise God!!
You can say I’m damned if you want. You can want me to trust in myself and not in Christ’s sacrifice alone to have salvation. Sorry, that’s absolutely not even to be considered. You can never make me think Jesus didn’t do enough, that His sacrifice isn’t sufficient.
Laymond, Do you believe Jesus is God come in the flesh?
Grace,
In your comparison of Cornelius there is nothing powerful enough to avoid baptism. Peter and the men with him testified to that, you are claiming that salvation came upon him prior to baptism, if that is truly the case then Cornelius was already a Christian prior to his baptism. You have not given an answer for the the purpose of their baptism. But, all of the recorded baptisms in The NT created a change in the life of the one being baptized. The records of John’s communications to those whom he was baptizing spelled out that those very devout Jews (the elite of God’s chosen people) came to John for a life changing event. They came to John expecting to be forgiven of their sins. This did not happen to them just because they decided to go to John, it was during baptism that the forgiveness of sins took place.
But, setting that truth aside for a moment, if you see the need to be classified as saved prior to baptism then within the hour or at least that day submit to baptism, you will portray the same picture of the events at Cornelius’s house. If you follow that pattern then there would no doubt that your life was acceptable to God. If that is not the pattern that you are promoting, but that time is not really a factor, and that sometimes many years later an individual could be baptized when they had acquired or assembled the right size audience that they desired for their testimony to be effective. Then you have given baptism a different meaning than scripture has applied to it.
I believe one of the strongest points in the scriptures about the nature of baptism is the communication from Jesus to the Pharisees and lawyers, they were devout Jews and believed in God, would you say that they did not have faith, surely they must have been saved even though they did not submit to the baptism of John. Was that the summation of Jesus’ comments? No they refused baptism and they will pay the consequences.
Grace,
When you make this statement, “You can say I’m damned if you want. You can want me to trust in myself and not in Christ’s sacrifice alone to have salvation. Sorry, that’s absolutely not even to be considered. You can never make me think Jesus didn’t do enough, that His sacrifice isn’t sufficient.” are you in agreement with Paul?
(Phil 2:10 KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Are you bowing, confessing, obeying and working out your own salvation with fear and trembling without murmurings and disputings.
If you were not doing these thing would his sacrifice still keep you saved?
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Peter saw they believed and knew we are to baptize those who believe in Jesus and told them to be baptized.
I believe we baptize Christians, a person who has been converted, their heart and mind has been changed, there has been an inward regeneration. A lost person cannot be a convert, no conversion has happened, there has been no change to the person’s existing state.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Luke, Peter or Paul never called the Holy Spirit a sign as some here want to call Him.
The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is not an energy or a concept. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. He is God.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
That’s a far cry from just having the ability to speak a language.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
You are arguing with your own straw man. I have never said or heard anyone else say that non-believers were to be baptized. That cannot be found in scriptures. As I remember you were the individual who coined that concept to contest one of the communications you did not agree with. John the Baptist even went farther than that, he demanded that those who were God’s people not come to baptism unless they were going to make changes in their lives. I posted this along with other accounts from Luke, well read it again.
Mat 3:7-9 ESV But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (9) And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
John required those who coming to him for baptism to show evidence of a change in their lives.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Buckeye Chuck,
I am not totally sure of your commitment to whether baptism is necessary for entry into the kingdom, but As you have made this comment, it leads me to believe that you have questions as to why these men had not heard of the Holy Spirit. Therefore I’ll give you my best understanding.
“During His ministry, Jesus and His disciples taught and administered John’s baptism of repentance and the forgiveness of sins. Paul, in Acts 19: “1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
As I read the Gospels I see no mention of the reception of the Holy Spirit through baptism prior to the Day of Pentecost. But on that day Peter’s message told of the receiving after baptism.
(Act 2:38 ESV) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Most all of the Jews were at the Pentecost meeting, there is no communication about any of those who accepted the call who offered testimony that they had been baptized by John therefore should not need this baptism. It is only logical to believe that the majority of those there had been baptized by John or the Disciples of Jesus. The indication within the scriptures leads me to believe that all those who had been baptized earlier were baptized again, this time the gift of Holy Spirit was given. The next conclusion would be that the men encountered who had not heard of the Holy Spirit had not attended the Pentecost event, therefore they had no knowledge of and had not received the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that even after baptism they were given the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, my assumption is since many others received it without the laying on of hands that this was an extension that was more like what the Apostles had, the Word revels that they had more than we receive or than those received by baptism at Pentecost.
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Grace,
Do you really believe that only CoC members become indoctrinated with their own concepts, and cannot learn what the Bible really teaches? If you look into a mirror I am sure you will see yourself. Could you look into the Word of God and prove your own theories?
Grace,
Again Paul does not agree with you.
“Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.”
Act 19:1-7 ESV And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. (2) And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” (3) And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” (4) And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” (5) On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. (7) There were about twelve men in all.
In this communication with these men Paul expected the Holy Spirit to inhabit these men after baptism. Notice, he asked them nothing about their beliefs or faith, because it was visible in their actions that they had both. According to your theology they were saved, but they and Paul affirm that they did not have the Holy Spirit. This proves that individuals can think they are saved and not have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In the following communications from John the Baptist, he proclaims that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
(Mar 1:8 ESV) I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
(Luk 3:16 ESV) John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
(Joh 1:33 ESV) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
Can you explain why Jesus had not given these men the Holy Spirit when they believed and had faith? They are an exact example that you are using of men claiming belief and faith that you claim are saved. But, can they be saved without Jesus giving them the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Jesus command to the Apostles ties baptizing in the name of the Father and Son and of the Holy Spirit into one action. Can you show a record in scriptures where this act was accomplished in any other way than by being immersed in water baptism?
(Mat 28:19 ESV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
You can think your good works earn you salvation, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses work very hard to get to heaven also, they teach baptism as you do, I’ve seen them do many really good things, do you think their good works will get them to heaven?
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Luke said they had received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit because they believed in Him, Acts 15:7-9.
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul disagrees with you. He says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter disagrees with you. He says the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at I believe it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
Looking at God’s Word I see that I’m guilty as sin and that it’s only by Jesus’ perfect life and sacrifice I have salvation.
You can say I’m damned if you want. You can want me to trust in myself and not in Christ’s sacrifice alone to have salvation. Sorry, that’s absolutely not even to be considered. You can never make me think Jesus didn’t do enough, that His sacrifice isn’t sufficient.
The sin debt I owe to God is paid in full by my Lord and Savior, my King, Jesus Christ! It is Jesus Christ and what He did to pay for my sins that gets me into heaven. Praise God!!
Grace, does this apply to you ? or just others.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Grace, you say you are saved by faith in Jesus, yet it sounds like to others you don’t trust in what he said. Please explain how you have saving faith, if you don’t believe what Jesus said.
Do you think Jesus died for you on the one hand, and lied to you on the other ?
to me faith is the same as trust, and I trust that Jesus showed the way, not gave out free rides.
I believe Jesus is referred to as the light, not a sugar daddy.
Grace,
Are you stating that they are condemned, won’t be saved? I can see no other reason for your comment. I have not condemned them because they work, but it looks like you do.
In fact I am going to challenge you to find where anyone who does no work will be saved. I believe that the message you are promoting, being saved is a free gift if you have believe and have faith.and nothing more. What I am challenging you to is, if someone is saved by the terms that you are stating, they can sit in their recliner or play on their cruse ship, spend all their time golfing, attend a few wild parties and live life to the fullest, without a worry of losing their salvation As long as they continue to believe and have faith in Jesus.
That is what I see promoted by this statement.
“The sin debt I owe to God is paid in full by my Lord and Savior, my King, Jesus Christ! It is Jesus Christ and what He did to pay for my sins that gets me into heaven. Praise God!!”
Contrast that with what I understand, Jesus paid the price of the debt that I “owed” on the day I committed my life to him. He cleaned the past, it now becomes my responsibility to live my life to the pattern of his life. Every thing that he would do becomes my responsibility to do, every thing that he would not do becomes my responsibility to not do. It is assured that I will never be able to live a life that would be a total representation of his, therefore when I falter or fail in my walk he is willing to forgive and forget the failure even if I do not even understand when it happened. But, during that time if I chose to reject living like Jesus lived and return to my former lifestyle, I also reject the free gift that Jesus offers. Jay has illustrated this concept many times, the only way that a child of God can loose their salvation is by exiting through the same entry point. An individual in this world can believe and have faith in Jesus and never respond to the call, thus never become a child of God. A child of God can also exit from Jesus’ way of life so drastically that they become rebellious to the savior and remove themselves from the free gift of salvation.
Ah, you say show me an example. Judas fits perfectly.
The Great Commission is clear for what is expected. When Christ tells you what to do, why would anyone claiming to follow Him argue with what He said?
I’ve never said Christians shouldn’t be doing the things God wants us to, of course we should. When have I said we shouldn’t? I believe Christians should be baptized, eat and drink of the Lord’s Supper, help the poor and sick, give shelter to those who have none, and visit those who are in prison, ect..
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
I was baptized as a believer in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19. Do you believe I was baptized wrong?
Grace,
To give you an answer to this question will be the same as I told you before, that you were baptized correctly. Now, my question to you are you teaching others to do the same?
I will also add that I believe that the examples that were followed to arrive at this correct baptism also were followed by Saul who’s sins were washed away during baptism, this explains that yours were also. He retained his sins after becoming a believer, in fact even a believer who had prayed for three days prior to being baptized to wash away his sins. Were you already forgiven for your sins prior to your baptism?
Larry Cheek said “I am not totally sure of your commitment to whether baptism is necessary for entry into the kingdom, but As you have made this comment, it leads me to believe that you have questions as to why these men had not heard of the Holy Spirit.”
Larry, I attempted to provide a response to the 5 questions in Jay’s OP. That’s all. I didn’t try to provide a comprehensive and complete position statement on baptism or salvation. Jay didn’t ask for that. Nor was I voicing “questions as to why those in the text I quoted had not heard of the Holy Spirit.” I provided Paul’s response to the situation where he instructed those who had only received John’s baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins to be baptized in the name of Jesus and the promise of the Holy Spirit. Without expressly stating so, because I thought the text did an exemplary job of doing so itself, baptism in the name of Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit is what Paul taught in Acts 19.
I share Jay’s expressed disappointment that the discussion in this thread has turned into a continuation of debates from the five previous posts in this series rather than addressing the questions from this post.
Larry asked, “Were you already forgiven for your sins prior to your baptism?”
Yes. I believe I am just as saved as the thief on the cross, Cornelius, friends and family and the apostles. They all were saved and it wasn’t baptism that save any of them.
You can say I’m damned if you want. You can want me to trust in myself and not in Christ’s sacrifice alone to have salvation. Sorry, that’s absolutely not even to be considered. You can never make me think Jesus didn’t do enough, that His sacrifice isn’t sufficient.
The sin debt I owe to God is paid in full by my Lord and Savior, my King, Jesus Christ! It is Jesus Christ and what He did to pay for my sins that gets me into heaven. Praise God!!
Cornelius, family and friends received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
Luke recorded the very words the Gentiles “heard” Peter say, Acts 10:34-43. Luke said the gospel of Jesus was spoken and heard, Acts 10:44, “all those who HEARD the word” received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:7-9 They heard the gospel and believed and God accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit.
Luke said they received the Holy Spirit and Peter proclaimed God had accepted them giving them the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11.
John 6:47 I tell you for certain that everyone who has faith in me has eternal life.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Cornelius, family and friends had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. They were children of God before they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48, Acts 15:8-11
Romans 4:5 But you cannot make God accept you because of something you do. God accepts sinners only because they have faith in Him.
Romans 8:9-10 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God.
Roman 8:16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God’s children.
Ephesians 1:13-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that He will give us the inheritance He promised and that He has purchased us to be His own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him.
Paul says those who have the Spirit belong to Christ. They were children of God before they were baptized.
Acts 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Peter proclaimed the Gentiles were saved when they had faith. And Peter proclaimed they are the norm of how anyone is saved.
We are accounted righteous when we have faith in Him. God’s grace is always available to anyone wherever they are at, whether on a plane, on a bus, in a car, on a mountain cliff, in an alley, in a hospital, in a prison, wherever a person is at it is by grace through faith they are saved. His sacrifice is sufficient. Such grace is personal and powerful. Romans 4:1-8
Jesus came and showed His compassion, mercy, and grace to people. He forgave people’s sins from their faith in Him, He accounted their faith as enough to Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection didn’t render Him powerless, He didn’t show people a false god, He showed them the true God. Jesus is willing to accept our faith in Him telling many people that their faith is sufficient to Him to give them forgiveness.
Jesus’ death didn’t destroy His character, it didn’t make Him a weaker God, nope He rose from the dead and continued to demonstrate through Cornelius and his family and friends His grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Why would Jesus give such great kindness forgiving people who had faith in Him, without them having to perform a ritual for Him to bestow His grace to them, to change His mind that He will only forgive people who perform a ritual? That would be pretty bad teaching example for Jesus to give.
Your theology is a person who has faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a child of the devil. Please show the Scripture that says a child of the devil has faith that Jesus saved them by His sacrifice and desires to follow Him.
Some in the CofC denomination consider people as saved, even though they weren’t baptized under the CofC denomination’s “general understanding” of baptism, as long as they were baptized. Do you agree with them?
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Re: ““Sins previously committed” refers back to Rom 1 and 2, which describes the sins of Jews and Gentiles alike. Before Jesus, God had not yet brought about the punishment of gehenna for those not saved. Those “damned” before Jesus just died. The didn’t go to hell or suffer punishment. They just died and then ceased to exist.”
Are you here articulating a belief in partial nihilism – that OT figures who refused to believe in YHWH and committed their iniquities to completion (e.g., Gen 15:16) will NOT suffer damnation and the lake of fire? What of Jesus’ comments on Sodom and Gomorrah (Matthew 10:15): does “more tolerable” equate with a pass on their sins? Did Jude 6-7 get it wrong also, along with its Petrine reference?
If this is your theology, it sounds more Jehovah’s Witness than historical orthodoxy.
I would really like some clarification and your previous article seemed to just assume the reader was familiar with the position. I am not..
I am not interested in reading more general comments, just yours in reply to my query. Thank you.
Jesus said that we must become as little children. Children believe and obey without rationalizing.
If a child were to read Mark 16:16 or Acts 2:38 he/she would have no problem with it. They would just do it with or without understanding, and God would then deliver on His promise. I was baptised in the Baptist Church because I had repented of my sins and only knew that God commanded me to be baptized as my first step in following Him. God says that now we look through a dark glass. He knows our mortal minds have problems, but we come to better understanding as we grow toward maturity in Christ. God keeps His promises at the point of our obedience. If we attempt to rationalize His commands to fit our heritage or desires we go against God’s will as this in itself demonstrates a lack of faith. In Ecclesiastes 12:13 we find that our whole duty is to fear God and keep His commandments. Why can’t we just stop all of the debating and rationalizing and just do that? God is faithful to His promises, and we can find rest in Him..
P.S. to the above: God showed me later in His word that my sins were remitted at the point of my obedience and I received the Holy Spirit who guides me into all truth if I will only trust Him and open my mind to recieve it. I left my heritage and it’s influence behind, but I find now that no body of Christians have a corner on the truth. I also, like Paul, have not arrived. Jesus said that we can judge the tree by it’s fruit, but not even inclined to do that, knowing my own sinfulness. God knows our hearts and He will separate the wheat from the tares
Jesus said “follow me” and that is what He expected faith and response, even without knowing all the whys and wherefores. We make this too complicated. The interesting thing about Peter in Acts 2:38 was what he was replying to, “what must we do to be saved?” He answered “Repent and be baptized (or immersed)”, then were.
He didn’t say, “Well you are already saved, but be baptized anyways” or was he playing a joke on them by telling them something to do to thier question of being saved, even though they already were.
They wanted salvation, Peter told them to do something and they upon doing such, understood they were saved. It is a short and simple path to Jesus in faith and obedience, but faith and obedience must be the path afterwards as well. We must submit to Jesus and then walk in Jesus with Jesus. It isn’t about grace or mercy or faith or baptism. It is all about Jesus, the savior.