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Just so you know, in case you were/are curious, I believe that the Holy Spirit is in us in the same way that Jesus was in his disciples, when he told them that he was in them in passages such as Jn. 15.
Let’s look at that passage briefly.
(Jn. 15:4-7 ESV) 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
If this were all we had to go by, one could make a fair argument that Jesus abides in us solely through his words. But it’s not. The preachers who used this (and similar) passages to build a case denying a personal indwelling in favor of a representational indwelling through the word utterly ignored the OT background. And the whole point of the OT and NT passages I cited in previous posts of this series is that words are not enough.
Paul plainly says so — repeatedly — because he’s read the OT —
(Rom. 2:28-29 ESV) 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
(2 Cor. 3:5-6 ESV) 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(Rom. 7:6 ESV) 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
If a written code — words — could be good enough, then Paul is an idiot. Paul’s point is not just that the Torah is insufficient, but that we are insufficient to circumcise our own hearts. The letter kills. How do we know that? Well, read Jeremiah. Read Ezekiel. Read Lamentations. The Jews utterly failed to circumcise their own hearts. The solution is not a better law or better letters but the Spirit.
(Ezek. 37:1-14 ESV) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. 2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. 3 And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
And I answered, “O Lord GOD, you know.”
4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD.”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. 9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.”
How did the dry bones of Israel become “an exceedingly great army” for the Lord? God put his Spirit within them so that they would live. When? At Pentecost.
I believe that Jesus is in us today, in the same way, and to the same extent, that the Spirit is. Not that Jesus is in us “representatively” BY the Spirit (which would mean that Jesus isn’t actually in us).
John 15 concludes,
(Jn. 15:26-27 ESV) 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.”
How did the Spirit bear witness? Largely incarnationally, through Christians in whom the Spirit dwelt. Obviously, the disciples were themselves witnesses.
In fact, we just can’t set up a dichotomy and insist that Jesus dwells in his disciples either through his words or through his Spirit. Both can be true simultaneously — and this is what the Bible teaches
However, I don’t believe that either of them are in us “personally”. I mean, Jesus told his disciples while with them on earth, that he was “in” them. But, we know that he didn’t mean by that that he was himself “personally” inside of them. Which, IMO shows that God can indeed be said to be in a person, without needing it to be via himself, personally.
But you ignore the OT background, as well as the several passages that teach we need the Spirit to live (echoing Deu 30:6) because the letter kills. The solution is the indwelling. If the indwelling is merely the words of Jesus — and nothing more — well, the letter kills, and we get the words of Jesus by reading words written in letters.
How are we regenerated and renewed in a way that the Jews did not enjoy? What changed with the outpouring of the Spirit?
(Joel 2:28-32a ESV) 28 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit. 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Why does Joel 2 associate the outpouring of the Spirit with the ability to be saved by calling on the name of the Lord? What was going to be different?
Having said that, I do believe that God (Father, Son, and/or Spirit) is fully able to strengthen, heal, cause us to remember, make us forget, encourage or even kill a person, without first needing to be personally inside of the person, to do so. IOW, I do not believe in the “Word Only” idea that God is not personally active in the lives of his children. He is. And he directly helps us, along with his living Word.
So why is it that God can do this but he can’t do this through his Spirit? What advantage is there to crediting this things to God the Father rather than God the Spirit?
Jay asks:
“So why is it that God can do this but he can’t do this through his Spirit? What advantage is there to crediting this things to God the Father rather than God the Spirit?”
God CAN “do this through his Spirit”, I never said that he can’t. But, let me ask you, why do you believe his Spirit must “personally” relocate inside of a person, in order to do stuff to/for him?
Jay adds:
“But you ignore the OT background, as well as the several passages that teach we need the Spirit to live (echoing Deu 30:6) because the letter kills.”
I DO NOT ignore the OT background, nor ANY passages that teach we need the Spirit to live. Why do you make such accusations? I DO believe that we “need the Spirit” to live. I just don’t add “inside if me personally in a way different that Christ is in me”. You assume that the Spirit is in you “personally” and differently than than the way that Christ is in you. I just don’t. I believe that the Spirit of God is in me IN THE SAME MANNER and to THE SAME EXTENT that his Sin is in me.
You add words and ideas. I do not.
Excuse, the typos! I meant his “Son”, not his “Sin”.
But, another point – why do you believe that the Spirit CAN NOT help a child of God (like my 5 year old son), until and unless, the Spirit first personally relocates himself inside of my son?! Can’t God help a person without first needing to “personally”
relocate himself inside of said person?
Again Jesus was IN his disciples back in Jn 15, just as he said he was IN them. But, he was not in them “personally”. You, and others, assume and add the word “personally”, I do not.
That is why, according to your position, the Spirit CANNOT help all of his little children who sing “Jesus loves me” at VBS. You don’t believe that they can have the Spirit OR his help – because you don’t believe he won’t be IN them until after they grow up,, sin, and need to be reborn!
But, in my view, such innocent children DO have the Spirit in them. JUSTAS they have Jesus living in them!
Who’s doing the ignoring and denying, here??
Not me bro…
Isn’t the Spirit of Christ and Spirit of God the same Spirit?
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ( as we see , God saw man as dwelling in evil, and evil dwelling in man )
(but we are given the way to avoid what they did, we live to follow in Jesus footsteps , or in Jesus. and we dwell on Jesus words, as our guide, we keep our thoughts and heart occupied with good, instead of evil, If we follow the “spirit of truth” that Jesus called the comforter, I don’t think anyone here would deny that Jesus spoke the truth, fherefore Jesus spoke in the “spirit of truth” if the words of Jesus dwells within us, the “spirit of truth ” dwells wihin us. What was it Jesus said this comforter would do ? I believe it was to remind the apostles of the words Jesus had spoken.
“If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Jay said; “If a written code — words — could be good enough, then Paul is an idiot.”
I wouldn’t go so far as to call Paul an “idiot” but he did write some things that were confusing.
JES says:
“Isn’t the Spirit of Christ and Spirit of God the same Spirit?”
JES, if they are one and the same, how was Jesus praying to God in heaven, from earth, and how did Jesus take a seat at the right hand of God ? was it all just a show for us ignorant humans?
In many cited passages, the word “spirit” is capitalized. I question whether the author intended to speak of the Holy Spirit every time the word “spirit” is used. Each mortal has a spiritual nature and therefore has a spirit which will either be godly or godless. And many GOOD people are not in Christ, so have not received the gift of God’s Spirit. But I observe that they are GOOD people (some of them) although they are not “in Christ.”
Why do do many people have an issue with the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer? How does one take Paul’s admonition to “be filled with the Spirit?” When one pours water into a glass until it’s full, do you say that the glass is surrounded and heavily influenced by the water? No, the water fills the glass in the inside.
What am I missing? Is there a fear of being filled with the Spirit? Is this too difficult to understand with the human mind? Is this just too wondeful a concept to accept? Do you feel unworthy? Is it just what one is taught all your life, and so there is no accepting any other way of thinking regarding what the scriptures teach? I have the same question that Paul asked the Galatians;
Galatians 3:2-3
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Hank,
I am wondering how you could believe that a 5 year old child is innocent? Innocent would be a relationship of an individual who has never sinned. Can you testify that this child has never sinned. Sin is not just disobeying a set of rules which God has authored. A child can be held accountable for disobedience to parents instructions. God has said so. I have seen children just learning to walk who do not obey their parents commands. You know don’t touch that, come here, don’t you do that again, and of course the child will do exactly what they were told not to do, and look to see what the parent is going to do about it. So many children are so rebellious at certain ages some peculiar ages have been identified like (the terrible 2s). And there is much more that could be said about the interactions between children and their parents.
But, suppose as you suggest that The Spirit or Christ is already within this 5 year old child. Would we then have to surmise that this child would never commit a sin, or become a sinner who needs repentance? When this child does become a sinner would we have to admit that Christ and The Spirit were not guiding this child in a fashion to help the child to remain sinless? Or maybe we should say forgiven for the sins even before they were committed. Would we not believe God, as he has stated that, “all have fallen short of the glory of God”, and “there is none righteous not one”. when we testify that this child is innocent at the age of 5 years old. At what age then does a child become a sinner who needs a savior? Or should we suggest that a child is innocent until God decides that he can sin now so he will need Jesus.
I see that we sometimes believe things because that is the way we want it to be. God can count a child as a sinner very early in life but not hold that child accountable for the sins it has committed. God also knows the child’s heart, and understands exactly at what time in the child’s life that it becomes disobedient. At that time God will no longer extend his grace to cover the sins, until the child repents of rebellion and returns into God’s grace. If this was not true than no child could ever become a sinner.
Laymond, you did not comprehend what I wrote. I did not say that any of the three entities
of the God Head are the same bodily form, but we’re one in Spirit. Just as He prayed for in the garden.
“but we’re one in Spirit. Just as He prayed for in the garden.”
JES the best way I have found to explain what Jesus referred to when he said “one in spirit” Is to refer to a team The Dallas Cowboys are made up of many individuals but they are “one in spirit” they are all working toward the same goal , although a Christian, Jesus, and God almighty are individuals they should be a team working as one to attain a goal, one in spirit.
So, when Hank refers to the Spirit of God, or the Spirit of Christ, indwelling/filling someone, he would be designating the same Spirit, not separate Spirits?
Laymond,
It looks like you are placing a Christian, Jesus and God on the same level while playing on this field, as you suggest they act like a team. As a team, no member is superior to another even though each member serves in a different slot. I would change the order here to Jesus and God are on the same team as they are carrying (or supporting) the Christian because of his inabilities.
The Bible never has made a statement such as, “Jesus, and God almighty are individuals”. Both God and Jesus are Spirits. They are not individuals, an individual is a human characteristic.
Joh 4:24 ESV God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jesus is in the same form as his father. He is also a Spirit. This fact is proven in the first two chapters of Revelation.
Larry asks:
“Hank, I am wondering how you could believe that a 5 year old child is innocent? Innocent would be a relationship of an individual who has never sinned. Can you testify that this child has never sinned. Sin is not just disobeying a set of rules which God has authored. A child can be held accountable for disobedience to parents instructions. God has said so. I have seen children just learning to walk who do not obey their parents commands. You know don’t touch that, come here, don’t you do that again, and of course the child will do exactly what they were told not to do, and look to see what the parent is going to do about it. So many children are so rebellious at certain ages some peculiar ages have been identified like (the terrible 2s). And there is much more that could be said about the interactions between children and their parents.”
Larry, I believe that the 5 year old you mentioned. Is innocent (not separate from God by sin), the same way I’m sure Jay Guin believes the same thing. Namely, the actions of a baby/young child aren’t counted as sin. Remember, that Isaiah prophesied that there would be a time before even Jesus would know how “refuse the evil and choose the good” (7:16). As Moses wrote in DT. 1:39 put it: “…your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there.” Larry, what are YOU suggesting?? Do you believe that little babies and toddlers who touch things they were instructed not to, are guilty sinners who are in need of God’s forgiveness? That they are condemned and list, until they become Christians? Cause, I’m sure pretty much nobody else here believes that.
Larry adds:
“But, suppose as you suggest that The Spirit or Christ is already within this 5 year old child. Would we then have to surmise that this child would never commit a sin, or become a sinner who needs repentance?”
No.
“When this child does become a sinner would we have to admit that Christ and The Spirit were not guiding this child in a fashion to help the child to remain sinless?
No.
“Or maybe we should say forgiven for the sins even before they were committed. Would we not believe God, as he has stated that, “all have fallen short of the glory of God”, and “there is none righteous not one”. when we testify that this child is innocent at the age of 5 years old. At what age then does a child become a sinner who needs a savior?”
When inspiration tells that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, he means Jew and Gentiles (all peoples). Not every living soul! Again, if YOU believe that infants are born guilty of sin and condemned from birth, we should be having a different discussion. Again, there’s hardly a regular reader of this blog, who believe souls are guilty of sin at conception. I know Jay doesn’t.
“Or should we suggest that a child is innocent until God decides that he can sin now so he will need Jesus.”
I would say “until God decides that he can sin now”, but otherwise yeah, that would be a more accurate statement. Because, the truth IS – a child IS innocent UNTIL God sees the that the child is older (more mature) than the Jesus was BEFORE he knew to refuse the evil and choose the good. Just like, the children mentioned in DT 1:39, who did not yet have “knowledge of good or evil”.
“I see that we sometimes believe things because that is the way we want it to be.”
Me too,
“God can count a child as a sinner very early in life but not hold that child accountable for the sins it has committed.”
Where did you hear that, tho? I thought that the wages if sin is death? Can God REALLY count one as a sinner, but not see him as guilty? Can/does God forgive these guilty toddlers, apart from them having faith in Jesus or his blood? Are you saying that 2 & 3 year olds can die as sinners, but still go to heaven because THEIR sins don’t need to be forgiven???
Laymond,
It looks like you are placing a Christian, Jesus and God on the same level while playing on this field,
Larry,
Evidently you have never been on any kind of team. I have never been a part of a team that didn’t have a leader.
Hank,
So I contest the concept of being (innocent), which I believe to relate to an individual who has never committed a crime or in the application we are studying, a sin. In comparison to an individual who (is not held accountable) because of lack of maturity or knowledge is not yet capable to know right from wrong who does many of the same things which is accounted as sin, thich they will become accountable for if they do those same things after they arrive to the knowing that it is sin. Sin is sin, sin or crimes are not changed because the one who has performed them doesn’t understand that it is sin or criminal. God will not hold these whom he knows have not arrived to a knowledge of their sins accountable. Even our own laws are structured so an individual who is not mature or is handicapped are not allowed to be charged with their actions.
I hope that you misunderstood my communication as you attempt to read into it a message that distorts it drastically.
Then you ask some very important questions.
Is this statement really true? “When inspiration tells that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, he means Jew and Gentiles (all peoples). Not every living soul! Again, if YOU believe that infants are born guilty of sin and condemned from birth, we should be having a different discussion”.
I am very glad to hear that you believe that children are not held accountable for their sins until God decides that they have rebelled against him.
You said.
I thought that the wages if sin is death? Can God REALLY count one as a sinner, but not see him as guilty? Can/does God forgive these guilty toddlers, apart from them having faith in Jesus or his blood? Are you saying that 2 & 3 year olds can die as sinners, but still go to heaven because THEIR sins don’t need to be forgiven???
Are you trying to say that God cannot do as described here to children?
Rom 4:7-8 ESV “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
It is consistent with scriptures that God does not hold children who lack knowledge or who are handicapped responsible for their sins. All children become sinners on their own just as the text above states, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, no child is exempt from sinning. Christ is the only human who never sinned.
Do you see a record anywhere in scripture which portrays that a child who has never sinned came to believe in Jesus and never committed a sin to which it was accountable? If there is then the quotation from scripture above is not true and must be modified as you have written, “Not every living soul!”.
Laymond,
Could you elaborate on the relationship of these three? Is God the leader and both Jesus and Christians the other team mates who are being lead?
Do you believe that God is an individual?
Larry asked. “Do you believe that God is an individual?”
Absolutely, how do I know ? The bible tells me so. where is your proof that He is anything but.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
I understand the last one here shoots down the “trinity” theory. At the very least it leaves Jesus out, Do you believe as some others here do, that we should draw our own opinion on what Jesus meant here? Or maybe you just don’t believe your eyes.
I don’t see how this supports your trinity theory; please explain.
JES, If Jesus was God why would he question anyone calling him “good”, then rebuke them for doing so. Or don’t you see this as a rebuke, a reprimand . my goodness the simplest of scriptures should not require explanation.
If we question every single thing written in the bible, what good is it? If we continue to question the exactness of the written word, of what good could the Holy Ghost be, the one specifically designed to guide the apostles and possibly the writers unto all truth, “the spirit of truth” I believe is what Jesus called him, or do we question Jesus there also. I tell you what I believe, some people would be better off to spend their time reading Tom Sawyer it is more entertaining, and we know it is fiction.
Laymond,
What happened to God being a Spirit? Have you evidence that a Spirit can be an individual? You mention Jesus as being God’s Son, if God is a Spirit then is not his Son also a Spirit? I thought that you elaborated heavily upon the baptism of Jesus when The Spirit landed upon and remained upon Jesus, wherein God announced him as His Son. A Spirit produced a human son? In this case the human was given a Spirit identical to God,s just as a human father begets a son who is part of the father.
“A Spirit produced a human son?”
I beg to differ, God, who is a spirit, caused a human female , who had never had sex with a human man to produce a human boy. A baby destined to be the savior of the Jewish race, God’s chosen people. Does that sound more difficult than creating a human man from the dust of the earth? if you take the time to think about it, this only proves that Jesus is a creation of God , a second Adam. the first and only one of his kind, created in a different way, for a different purpose.
Larry, I can set your mind at ease, there was no sex involved here. and the creation of this savior occurred right here on earth , within the womb of a human female. The birth of JTB was a miracle of God just as was the birth of Jesus. No a spirit didn’t produce a human son, God almighty created himself an heir a son and an overseer for his chosen people. If you believe that God is creator of the universe as I do, creating one little human boy is not such a giant step.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
“the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee”
As you see Larry, the birth of Jesus was a miraculous act , performed by the powers of God, not a sexual act between a human and a spirit.
“If you believe that God is creator of the universe as I do, creating one little human boy is not such a giant step.”
OK, I follow the logic of your last premise, and believe most students of scripture agree that God can do whatever God wants to do. So, why do you question the majority who believe that Jesus was alive and active long before any of “this” and that God, who has all power, didn’t transform his son into an embryo in Mary’s womb.
Seems like a pretty logical premise from scripture! “not such a giant step”, wouldn’t you agree?
Larry asked, “What happened to God being a Spirit? Have you evidence that a Spirit can be an individual?”
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Larry, I believe the letter “A” and the pronoun “him” defines God as “one” or an individual.
JES, do you also accept that JTB lived before his birth on earth, If so give proof, if not why not?
I believe both JTB and Jesus existed before their birth , but only in God’s plan. and both were described as servants of God.
Laymond said,
“this only proves that Jesus is a creation of God” – There you go, the one whom creation was given credit to is himself a created being? You can’t make this stuff up. I thought all things were created for him ,by him, and through him? Without him there was nothing made that was made?
JES, this is the reason I believe as I do, give your reason for your belief. The following tells us from whom Jesus springs.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Monty, read the vs before and after, the vs you quote and see who the vs you speak of is really talking about.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
NIV
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Who do you think “the firstborn of every creature” is God or his son.
Who do you think “is before all things” God or his son.
We need to keep things in context, especially some of what Paul said.
Laymond stated, “I believe both JTB and Jesus existed before their birth , but only in God’s plan. and both were described as servants of God.”
I agree that God “impregnated” Mary with a child that was the Christ, and that HE existed before His birth, but I do not see any such “implanting” by God for JTB or Isaac; therefore, I do not believe JTB, nor Isaac were “alive” before their conception; even in “God’s plan.”
Everybody, Laymond doesn’t believe Jesus is deity or God. A prophet maybe, a son of man, but not really the Son of God with the nature of God. I have been caught up in this argument in the past and it is usually a diversion and gets no where.
Dwight,
You are right. Laymond does enjoy turning the conversation toward his heterodox views on the nature of Jesus. I’ve repeatedly asked him to stop, but have been busy lately with other things. But if the readers are enjoying the Sisyphean task of persuading Laymond, have fun.
JES, do you not see a 90 yr old woman giving birth as a miracle ?
As much of a miracle as transforming HIS SON into an embryo and implanting Him into a human, as He did.
Laymond,
I see that you still did not tell us about how you can came to the conclusion that Jesus is God’s Son. You have confirmed many times in the past that Jesus is not God, but he is His Son. I showed you the point where God claimed him as His Son then you return to the birth of the human Jesus by Mary. Do you now deny that Jesus is God’s Son? Would you also argue with God about His Son’s relationship to HIm?
I think it terribly important that we not credit God’s SPIRIT with being our Savior. JESUS is our Savior. The Spirit is given to help OUR spirit as we serve Jesus. But it’s OUR spirits which determine how we will speak and act. It’s OUR spirits which lead us either to heaven or hell. Very often the translators capitalize “spirit” when the meaning obviously is the HUMAN spirit. It’s our HUMAN spirit which must REPENT in order for us to turn to Jesus as LORD and be saved by obeying Him. It’s our HUMAN spirit which guides us daily as we live for Jesus. As Christians, our spirits are helped by God’s Spirit, but the responsible actor in our salvation is OUR spirit.
Monty is surely right in correcting Laymond about our Creator. John 1:1-3 makes clear that it was the WORD who was WITH GOD who did the creating. It’s that WORD who later became flesh and lived on earth as Jesus. So even though not THEN known as Jesus, Creating was done by God’s SON (to be born later) rather than by the Father Himself.
What baffles me with Laymond’s inconsistent arguments is “What point are you trying to make”? How does this argument advance the Kingdom work that God intends for us to do on earth? Is Laymond fearing for the souls of the 99.9% of Christians that do not buy his theory?
This all smacks of the 1950 CoC stubbornness that I grew up with; not helpful!!!
Ray, can you explain why you refer to the bible often when you evidently don’t believe the very first statement in the book that is supposed to be “The Word of God”
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
In the very beginning of the book, the writer believes it is necessary to show how God created every thing that was created. And how does the writer say God did this, by the power of God’s spoken word. No where in all of scripture is God’s word spoken of as an individual, being apart from God. If we believe the old testament, God almighty is the creator of all that was created.
If we believe the New Testament nothing has changed. Yes John said the “word” was with God in the beginning. Nothing different from what we are told in Genesis 1.
Except the fact that this power was incased in a human body, therefore God’s word became flesh. Jesus did not become “the word” Jesus became the speaker of God’s word on earth. I believe this is explained in the opening words of the book of Hebrews.
Larry As for Jesus being the son of God Like most of the bible it is not for me to prove, it is for me to believe.
How about you, can you prove Jesus is God’s son, or are you just taking someone’s word for it. Don’t ask anyone to prove something unless you can prove it your self.
JES, please tell me what you see as inconsistent in what I have said.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
To all the Jesus creationist , Is there anything in Genesis 1 that we are supposed to believe. If you don’t believe anything in Genesis 1, why believe anything in Genesis at all, are we supposed to place our soul in jeopardy by believing the writings of one who so many questions have arisen , even his authority to write this book. can you prove the author of this book even knew Jesus.
OK you ask are we supposed to just ignore the book of John, I answer yes if it can not be made to agree with the book of Genesis. are we supposed to believe the book that is the base for all religion , or a book that can’t guarantee the author .
JES said, ” Is Laymond fearing for the souls of the 99.9% of Christians that do not buy his theory?”
JES, unless you consider the bible as theory, what I am saying is fact.
JES do you consider the following as theory, or fact.?
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I don’t know that Jesus was a theorist , I believe his forte was truth.
laymond says:
May 30, 2016 at 10:10 am
” If we question every single thing written in the bible, what good is it? If we continue to question the exactness of the written word, of what good could the Holy Ghost be, the one specifically designed to guide the apostles and possibly the writers unto all truth, “the spirit of truth” I believe is what Jesus called him, or do we question Jesus there also. I tell you what I believe, some people would be better off to spend their time reading Tom Sawyer it is more entertaining, and we know it is fiction.”
The only one being questioned here is you, and your Gnostic views.
Bible > Matthew > Chapter 1 > Verse 23
◄ Matthew 1:23 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
New Living Translation
“Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means ‘God is with us.'”
English Standard Version
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Berean Study Bible
“Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”).
Berean Literal Bible
“Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel” which is, being translated, “God with us.”
New American Standard Bible
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
King James Bible
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
See, the virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name Him Immanuel, which is translated “God is with us.”
International Standard Version
“See, a virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel,” which means, “God with us.”
NET Bible
“Look! The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him Emmanuel,” which means “God with us.”
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Behold the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bear a son, and they shall call his Name Emmanuail, which is translated, ‘Our God is with us’“.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
“The virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel,” which means “God is with us.”
New American Standard 1977
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
Behold, a virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God With Us.
King James 2000 Bible
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
American King James Version
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
American Standard Version
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Darby Bible Translation
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, ‘God with us.’
English Revised Version
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
Webster’s Bible Translation
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Weymouth New Testament
“Mark! The maiden will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call His name Immanuel” –a word which signifies ‘God with us’.
World English Bible
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;” which is, being interpreted, “God with us.”
Young’s Literal Translation
Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,’ which is, being interpreted ‘With us he is God.’
Study Bible
The Birth of Jesus
…22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”). 24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife.…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Isaiah 7:14
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:10
“Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a proposal, but it will not stand, For God is with us.”
Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Treasury of Scripture
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
a virgin.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin …
they shall call his name. or, his name shall be called. Emmanuel
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin …
Isaiah 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he …
Immanuel. God.
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: …
Psalm 46:7,11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah…
Isaiah 8:8-10 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he …
Isaiah 9:6,7 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government …
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for …
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory…
Acts 18:9 Then spoke the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, …
Romans 1:3,4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed …
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ …
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, …
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was …
2 Timothy 4:17,22 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that …
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Study Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jubilee Bible 2000
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.
King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Darby Bible Translation
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Webster’s Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Young’s Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Matthew Henry Commentary
1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father’s mind to the world. What the evangelist says of Christ proves that he is God. He asserts, His existence in the beginning; His coexistence with the Father. The Word was with God. All things were made by him, and not as an instrument. Without him was not any thing made that was made, from the highest angel to the meanest worm. This shows how well qualified he was for the work of our redemption and salvation. The light of reason, as well as the life of sense, is derived from him, and depends upon him. This eternal Word, this true Light shines, but the darkness comprehends it not. Let us pray without ceasing, that our eyes may be opened to behold this Light, that we may walk in it; and thus be made wise unto salvation, by faith in Jesus Christ.
JES, I and others have fought this fight using many of the same scriptures and yet Laymond doesn’t get it even after going through John 1 and how clear it is. It becomes a distraction and an alternate conversation in these threads.
Yes, it does seem futile. Has he always been set on Jesus being human until His baptism?
JES, you used a large amount of pixels to prove exactly nothing. Where in all this does it say Jesus became an embryo, placed in the womb of a woman, and nine months later was born a baby boy, who as in actuality was god. I believe it is said that the whole of the universe is not big enough to contain God, but it seems a woman’s womb was, for at least nine months. Oh who was Jesus talking to in heaven while he was here on earth. an answering machine?
Laymond and JES,
I don’t see any profit in continuing this off-subject discussion of the Trinity (that many of us have seen many, many times before). Can we move to another topic, please?
YES
Ray Downen says:
May 31, 2016 at 11:32 pm
Hank’s Questions about the Personal Indwelling of the Spirit, Part 3
I think it terribly important that we not credit God’s SPIRIT with being our Savior. JESUS is our Savior.
1.Joshua or Jehoshua = “Jehovah is salvation”
1.Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”
as we see the name of Jesus means “Jehovah is salvation”
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Jay I hope this will not be considered discusing the trinity, or even off subject.