The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ: Our Attitude Toward the Conservative Leaders, Part 2

Posted on October 7, 2009 by Jay F Guin

cooperation.jpgSo, what’s the solution to the persistence of legalism in the Churches of Christ? Well, for some of us, maybe you, I’m persuaded God wants us to teach grace to the conservative Churches of Christ and rescue his children from a false gospel and, for many, misery. How do we do it? I’m still sorting it out, but let me make a few suggestions —

a. First, we have to get our own churches straight. The most convicting testimony to God’s good grace is a healthy congregation actively pursuing the mission of God in a visible way.

This doesn’t happen quickly, but the natural result of learning grace is learning to extend grace to others — by becoming a deeply loving, united church, by being active to help people in the community, and by being evangelistic. Just by becoming a Christ-like church, many will be convicted that your theology is sound. I speak from years of experience. It works. Continue reading →

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Election: Further Conclusions

Posted on October 6, 2009 by Jay F Guin

I keep thinking that I’m done with Election, but I never quite get there. I’ll try to keep this brief.

To expand a bit on the previous post regarding Election, the Piper view of the perseverance of the saints, to me, seems to be tautologous with the Arminian view (as opposed to the 20th Century Church of Christ view). I mean, it’s just another way of saying the same thing — with people wanting to fight over their favored wording.

Now, I find the Reformed/Calvinist/Piper way of saying it very hard to follow, but it seems to work for many people. In the end, despite the radically different forms of expresssion — and interpretations of many key passages — the two views say the same thing. It’s not immediately obvious, but I think it’s ultimately true. (It’s not true for all versions of Calvinism, however.)

On the other hand, the RCP view of election is very troubling to me because of the image of God it paints. Again, some people find the notion of God’s unconditional election attractive, but I do not.

Nonetheless, so long as the RCP view is taught as evangelistic and mission-minded, including avoiding any notion that the children of the elect are automatically saved, (not true of all RC fellowships) then pastorally it’s quite similar to the Arminian view. Continue reading →

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Ministry Ideas: International Student Giveaway

Posted on October 6, 2009 by Jay F Guin

I’m not sure how old this program is, but it goes back several years. The idea is simple. We are a campus church (next door to the University of Alabama). Each fall, scores of students enroll from foreign countries. Many are on shoestring budgets and couldn’t bring anything but a couple of suitcases with them from their homes. And so we arrange to give away furniture, computers … anything a student at the university could use.

We invite new international students to come by, meet some of our members, and receive free supplies. Volunteers are available to help move the furniture to their apartments or dorms, as students who’ve just arrived in the United States are often friendless and need help with desks and chairs.

Most donations are leftovers from someone’s redecorating, downsizing, or such, but the students are visibly moved by the generosity of the congregation.

These students are, of course, college students and very bright. They inevitably ask why we give our things away to perfect strangers — strangers who aren’t even Americans or Christians. And we tell them we do it because of Jesus.

This year, a student from a communist nation said, “I was warned to stay away from Christians, because Christians are very bad people. But now I have to reconsider everything!”

Over the years, a number of students have been converted to Jesus from this program — and have gone back to their homes to teach Christianity to others.

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The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ: Our Attitude Toward the Conservative Leaders, Part 1

Posted on October 6, 2009 by Jay F Guin

cooperation.jpgI get emails —

Dear Jay:

For the past year I have been meditating and restudying over long held positions of belief. I have changed my mind about several things, mostly due to abandoning the CENI and “pattern”  hermeneutics which kept me from being able to understand and apply many Bible passages. Along the way I have run across your web pages; also those of Alan Maxey, Dallas Burdette, Edward Fudge and others and find myself in agreement with much of what I find there because it is based on scripture.

I am a graduate of the [school of preaching]. I had great respect for [the founder of the school] and loved him very much. I thought he was a wonderful Bible student. I fancy that had he been given the opportunity to study with someone like you that he would have re-examined many of his beliefs and begun to implement changes in his theology. Of course, that is just my opinion and some might call it wishful thinking; but I hold that idea because I knew him well enough to know that he was a very studious and very sincere Christian. I hold no ill will toward him or the teachers of the school of preaching for teaching me what I now believe to be an abbreviated gospel. They were doing their very best. And when I, as a young student, wanted to be overly strict on others they cautioned me in kindness- a lesson I wish had taken to heart more at the time.

However, now that you and others are trying to gently pry the scales from our eyes I find that I am beginning to harbor a resentment for people like [certain prominent conservative preachers] and others who seem to be doing everything they can to “crazy glue’ the scales back onto the eyes of people searching the scriptures. Some of their Biblical arguments seem so simple minded I wonder at how I could have taken them seriously for so long. I have a decent mind, but I know that many of them are really much smarter and more learned than am I. And this knowledge gives rise in me to a resentment towards them for trying to keep me in the darkness to which they seem to have grown very accustomed.  My concern is that their legalism is soiling the gospel in the minds of Christians and others who might otherwise accept the grace of the Lord. —-and that might actually be one of those ‘salvation issues’ which they like to talk about.

I know that I will have little opportunity to affect the thinking or preaching of the main stream guys who are holding back Christians from better Bible study. What I am concerned about is my own attitude toward these men. I pray for them. I ask God to help me have a kind heart. I remind myself that everyone will not come to the same understanding at the same time (just as I did not). I remind myself that I certainly have not arrived to a complete understanding of scripture either.  But when I read some of their stuff, it just burns me. —so I try not to read it. I am reading from the more progressive teachers as I do my Bible study.

Have you got any thoughts that may help me “calm my butt down” as my Dad used to say?

Thanks for your blog and the wonderful teaching there. God bless you and your family.

Continue reading →

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Election: The Problem with Perseverance of the Saints, Part III

Posted on October 5, 2009 by Jay F Guin

I just want to add this final note. If the Reformed/Calvinist view teaches, as Piper and many others teach, that someone who appears saved and later “falls away” was never really saved and if the Calvinist believes that those who appear to be believers should be exhorted to remain true to the faith and continue in their obedience, then the Calvinist view and the Arminian view are functionally identical.

For example, if a member is struggling with sin and appears about to be overcome with sin, both sides would want to warn and counsel this person to return to his first love.

And if a former believer were to renounce the faith, he’d be expelled from the church.

And if a formerly devoted member were to live a life of sin and then repent, seeking to be restored, both churches would gladly accept him.

And if a member were to be caught up in willful sin, unwilling to repent, both churches would be as likely to discipline him.

I can’t think of a single instance where the Calvinist and the Arminian would act differently (as to this issue), other than when some church committee writes up their statement of faith or when the preacher decides to pound the pulpit on Reformation fights yet once again.

Therefore, it seems to me that we are fighting over nothing. I mean, to me, the Reformed/Calvinist view of perseverance is mistaken, and they think I’m mistaken, but as applied in practical pastoral terms, it makes no difference at all.

It would matter a great deal if a Calvinist were to teach that a believer can live a life of willful sin and remain saved — and there are a few that teach just that — but as I understand it, that’s not mainstream Reformed/Calvinism, and certainly not the Piper version.

And so … let’s talk about something else.

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GraceConversation.com — how to respond to a challenge?

Posted on October 5, 2009 by Jay F Guin

Dear readers,

Shortly after midnight last night, the following was posted over at GraceConversation —

I find it very interesting that boastful statements have been posted on this website, concerning the lack of willingness of those who disagree with you to discuss these matters. I also find it interesting that “discussion” is only on your terms.

Paul was willing to “dispute” publicly with the Pharisees and Jews who opposed him. Formal debates are the best forums in which to discuss these issues. A carefully worded proposition, with ground rules set beforehand, keeps the discussion on a high plane.

I myself am willing to publicly discuss these issues. I have written two books addressing current problems in churches of Christ: Among The Scholars (1994) and Tampering With Truth (2007). I also teach undergraduate Bible, part-time, at Amridge University. Please let me know if you are willing to do this.

David W. Hester

Minister, Springville Road church of Christ

How do you think I should respond?

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Ministry Ideas: ADOPT

Posted on October 5, 2009 by Jay F Guin

I’ve mentioned this one before.The idea is get our small groups ministry (Act 2 Groups) involved in ministry through community service organizations.

A number of our groups were looking for service opportunities, but we are so “Church of Christ” in our thinking, we just couldn’t get beyond singing in the local nursing homes (we do sing very well). And so we set up a committee to search out service opportunities. They spoke with various community agencies and asked what we could do to help.

Many turned us down — they didn’t need help from the untrained or they had been burned by churches in the past or they had nothing we could do at nights or the weekends. But a few were delighted to invite us in.

We made it clear that we were Christians and would not hide our faith, but our service was out of love and no one would be required to join our church or listen to a sermon as a condition.

This is from its website —

Assisting Diverse Organizations through Partnerships and Teaming

MISSION: The mission of the ADOPT program is to facilitate substantive ministry through lasting partnerships between each Acts 2 Group and an organization or “cause.” Continue reading →

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Election: The Problem with Perseverance of the Saints, Part 2

Posted on October 5, 2009 by Jay F Guin

Here’s how I’ve got it figured.

I think Hebrews provides the solution. After all, Hebrews contains many of the great verses promising Christians confidence and security, but Hebrews also contains many of the direst warnings against falling away. Clearly, the author considered it entirely possible to be confident in our salvation despite the real possibility of falling away.

We start with one of the most difficult verses in the New Testament –

(Heb 6:4-6 ESV) For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The teaching is not complicated. It’s just hard to accept. The passage seems to plainly declare that for those who’ve been saved, if they fall away, they will never repent.

(Forgiveness is always available. God never gives up. He is always ready to accept us back. Falling away only occurs when it’s no longer possible for the individual to repent.)

Well, this contradicts both the Calvinist and the conservative Church of Christ position! This suggests that there may really be a Third-Way solution. Continue reading →

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Ministry Ideas: Love Bears

Posted on October 4, 2009 by Jay F Guin

Our ladies Bible class has, for year, worked hard making “love bears” (after raising 4 kids, I keep wanting to say “Care Bears,” but it’s “love bears” — they do have to keep correcting me) — small, cloth, stuffed bears with a small tag saying these bears are given in the name of Jesus by the University Church of Christ.

The teddy bears are then given to the police, ambulance drivers, and hospitals, who then give them to children in need of comfort when caught in a traumatic situation. They’ve given away hundreds, maybe thousands, of love bears.

And they’ve received many a note from a grateful parent for the comfort provided by these simple gifts.

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Election: The Problem with Perseverance of the Saints, Part 1

Posted on October 4, 2009 by Jay F Guin

A very long time ago — back when I had hair and was skinny — all the way back to high school that is — I had a date with a good Baptist girl. (I, of course, didn’t not let anyone at church know I was dating a heretic. That’s how it was in those days. And it was just one date.)

Anyway, the conversation turned to atonement theology. (Yes, really.)  It went something like this.

Girl: I know deep in my heart that I’m saved. I have this assurance from the Holy Spirit that God has saved me and that I’ll never fall away.

Me: Hasn’t anyone in your church ever fallen away? Hasn’t there been someone who seemed saved and then fell away?

Girl: Oh, yes, but those people were never really saved in the first place. They had a false faith.

Me: If — before they fell away — you’d asked them if they were saved, what would they have said? Would they have said they were saved?

Girl: Of course.

Me: Would they have said they had this assurance from the Holy Spirit that they are saved?

Girl (growing unhappy with me): Ye – e – e – s

Me: And would they have denied that they had a false faith?

Girl (nearing anger): Of course.

Me: Then they were just as assured of their salvation as you, and yet they fell away. That’s not assurance.

Date ends. No good night kiss for Jay. Jay decides his preacher is right and he should stick with dating good Church of Christ girls. Faith, Belial, and all that. Continue reading →

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