Not surprisingly, Alexander has weighed in with another thoughtful, weighty comment regarding Jesus’ story of the Rich Man and Lazarus
(Luk 16:19-31 ESV) 19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house — 28 for I have five brothers — so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'”
This is, of course, one of the classic rejoinders to the arguments for conditional immortality — and for good reason. It just doesn’t seem to fit the theory.
Argument 1: Nothing here requires everlasting torment
“Hades” refers to the place where the dead are, either the grave or the afterlife.
The entire conversation could have taken place in 30 seconds. It’s just as possible that the rich man had been cast into Revelation’s Lake of Fire, was being painfully destroyed, but had not yet suffered utter destruction. In other words, the process of destroying someone separated from God is evidently a painful, agonizing process and not instantaneous.
There’s no need to assume that the rich man was in everlasting torment.
The problem with fitting this lesson from Jesus into the conditional immortality is the fact that it evidently takes place long before the resurrection. And that leads to the question: Where are the dead?
Argument 2: The dead sleep
Several verses speak of the dead as asleep awaiting the Second Coming–
(Eph. 5:13-14) But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
This passage is a reference back to Isaiah 26:19, which refers to the End when the dead are raised. (I like this especially because I love Bach’s “Sleeper’s Awake.”)
Jesus referred to Jairus daughter and Lazarus as “not dead but asleep,” although he raised them both from the dead.
In Acts, Luke routinely refers to the dead as asleep.
In several verses in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, Paul refers to the dead as asleep. In 1 Corinthians, he uses this language in the context of those arising in response to the Second Coming.
Argument 3: God exists outside time
The New Testament beat the scientists to this conclusion millennia earlier–
(1 Cor. 2:7 NIV) No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
(Tit 1:1-2 NIV) Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness– 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
Einstein’s Theory of General Relavity shows that the universe exists in four dimensions — three spatial dimensions and one time dimension. And the Hawking-Penrose Theorem demonstrates that time began when the universe began. Indeed, as time is part of the created universe, there was no time (as we know and experience it) “before” the creation. God created time when he created the heavens and the earth.
In the age to come – in the New Heavens and New Earth – we’ll have eternal life, that is, life unbounded by time. There is no necessary correspondence between time as we experience it and time as God experiences it — if God is bound by any kind of time at all. As the Bible says, a thousand years is like a day to God. It doesn’t mean that he’s old! It means his time is radically unlike ours.
Hence, as heaven is outside the created universe, it’s not bound by and doesn’t have to even touch time as we know it.
Therefore, it’s entirely possible for me to arrive at the gates of the new heavens and new earth simultaneously with my great-grandparents and great-grandchildren. I really like this thought. And I think this is what we’re promised.
We all die. We all leave this universe and its time. And we all enter God’s realm where earthly time has no meaning. Thus, there’s one Judgment, and it all happens at once – just as the scriptures picture it.
This explains quite a lot, actually. From an earthly perspective, the dead appear to sleep, but not from their perspective. Indeed, the Rich Man and Lazarus notwithstanding, by far, the most common description of the dead in Christ is that they are asleep.
From a heavenly perspective, the dead find themselves immediately at the End, that is, at the entrance to the New Earth. Hence, the thief on the cross really did go straight to Paradise to be with Jesus.
Augustine reached the same conclusion in Book XI of his Confessions–
15. But if the roving thought of any one should wander through the images of bygone time, and wonder that Thou, the God Almighty, and All-creating, and All-sustaining, the Architect of heaven and earth, didst for innumerable ages refrain from so great a work before Thou wouldst make it, let him awake and consider that he wonders at false things. For whence could innumerable ages pass by which Thou didst not make, since Thou art the Author and Creator of all ages? Or what times should those be which were not made by Thee? Or how should they pass by if they had not been? Since, therefore, Thou art the Creator of all times, if any time was before Thou madest heaven and earth, why is it said that Thou didst refrain from working? For that very time Thou madest, nor could times pass by before Thou madest times. But if before heaven and earth there was no time, why is it asked, What didst Thou then? For there was no “then” when time was not.
Now, this has profound implications for the old Reformation disputes about predestination and all, but that’s not today’s topic. Today, the question is how to locate the Rich Man and Lazarus in the heavenly calendar. So imagine that you’re sitting in God’s lap viewing the universe through the God-version of a telescope or some such thing.
What time is it on earth? Well, God is outside of time. Indeed, God sees all time at once because he’s not in time. He made time and time is bound by God, not the other way around. God is bigger than time. This means that anyone in God’s immediate presence can see all of earth time simultaneously — if God chooses to let him see it. The entire history of the world could be arrayed before anyone outside the created universe.
Of course, our senses aren’t built to perceive higher dimensions. We are in fact time bound and so we can only see one moment at a time. But God is not like us, and he can share his perceptions with us as he sees fit.
The Lake of Fire, of course, is not part of the created universe either, and so it’s also outside of time. That means that God could, should he so choose, allow anyone there to exist forever or for just a moment, and he could let anyone there see all or some of the world. What to us is the past is neither past, present, nor future to someone outside the universe. It’s just not.
Argument 4: The dead appear asleep to us but not to God
The two views — the dead are asleep and the dead pass outside time — are unified by recognizing that things appear differently depending on one’s perspective. If I’m looking at this from God’s perspective, then the dead will be with Jesus in Paradise at once. But from the perspective of those bound by time on earth, the dead appear asleep — “asleep” because we know they will awake.
I just wondered whether you would come to the same conclusions as the 7th Day Adventists or JWs on this matter … and you do. This does not mean that they are wrong only because they are sectarians – sometimes JWs are right where conventional churches are wrong (e.g. nonresistance, no blood). So we must not dismiss a view only because heretics also hold to such an understanding. But when these groups arose they also tried to be different, tried to be more precise, more accurate than the whole church of Christ before them, in order to make us accept their really "different" doctrines. And thus they sometimes make huge stretches (e.g. stauros does not mean cross but pole – making a big deal out of this).
But let's just stick with the facts.
I disagree. This conversation could have taken place in 30 seconds, that's true, but at the same time the relatives of the rich man were still alive – so this was BEFORE the resurrection of the lost (which takes place AFTER the millienium).
But we are not talking about the everlasting torment of the rich man, but about the time of waiting for the resurrection in the "lower regions of Hades".
In my opinion, "the dead sleep" is a reference to the bodies, but not the the "inner man". This is also quite interesting in Luke 16: The rich man is buried and opens his eyes in Hades.
When Christ said to the other criminal: "Today you will be in Paradiese with me" (Luke 23:43), both the Lord's and the criminal's body died and stayed on the earth (Christ was buried, the criminal's body was most likely dumped somewhere else)
And where did our Lord go after He died? He went to Hades to proclaim His victory (1Pe 3:19 and 1Pe 4:6) – which is remebered in the Apostls's Creed "He descended into Hades".
Did He preach to the sleepers? Isaiah 26:19 refers to the bodies of the dead. But not to the spirit or soul that depart from the body at the moment of death.
Yes, that's true. But what does this say about Hades? Is Hades a place without time or with time?
And what does that say about the New Heavens and the New Earth – are these with or without time? I believe they are with time, since they will be material.
This does not fit, because the martyr's in Rev 6:9 have top wait until their brothers dioed as well – so they are alive, but not resurrected yet. And the rich man is aware that his relatives are still alive (which Abraham also confirms) – so this is also before the resurrection.
I understand what you mean, but when we try to bring eternity and
our experience of time together we will end with wild speculations. The Scriptures (in my opininion) don't do that.
I think, your are a bit mixing apples and pears, Jay. I kind of thought that your theory will lead to "the dead-sleep" – are you sure this theory fits with the texts I pointed to you? It certainly does not fit with the understanding of the Early Christians. I am not sure whether the Adventists or JWs were the first to bring this up, but to me this sounds like an innvovation, and not like the teachings handed down from he Apostles.
Alexander
Alexander,
I appreciate your posts and the attempts to provide the other side on these issues. I agree with your premises.
Please do me a favor. You use the word "innovation" as it was in the context of the restoration movement in the late 19th century. In those days, it had a very negative connotation. In the 21st century, the word has a very positive meaning. Organizations live or die based on innovation. I have taken graduate level courses on innovation. As an engineer, my value is based on innovation.
I firmly believe the church must be innovative. Several years ago, door-knocking was an effective out-reach tool. The last time I tried this in the U.S. I literally had 3 out of five people slam their door in my face. However, it is still quite effective in Central America. The church needs to find innovative methods to reach out.
I have seen some very conservative cofC periodicals resurrect this term in the old RM context. I cringe knowing that most will miss interpret the meaning.
As an engineer, I know our innovations will fail if we attempt to defy the laws of physics. Likewise, we will fail if we defy the laws of God.
My question is: If when we die to this earth we like the rich man or Lazarus go immediately to one place or the other, when was the judgment?
Somehow there had to be one for if given the choice all would take the good place.
Secondly, if we immediately go to someplace, could at the great judgment be found in error and change places?
I believe the story is simply an example to demonstrate a point and not meant to be interpreted as the way it really happens or there will be two judgments instead of one!
Of course I can use a different word. Although I like the RM of the 19th century very much – but also I make a difference between "doctrinal innovations" (which I reject) and "practical adaptations" in order to be functional in the present age (which I modestly apply).
Alexander
Maybe we are not supposed to know every detail ahead. But I think it is like this:
There will be two resurrections: one for life and one for judgment (John 5:28-29). Since these two resurrections seem to be separated by the Millenium in Rev 20 I assume, that the dead are put intio two categories – lost and saved – right after death, but the judgmengt according to their works will take place at the day of resurrection.
Alexander
Alexander
If there are two judgments, can your destination be changed from the first judgment to another destination at the second? If so, what would be the requirements for making the change?
Who made the first judgment and sent a person to one location or the other immediately upon death as we know God will make the eternal decision at the final judgment?
If God made the first, then why a second from God if the destination is already determined for eternity at the first?
Does God like making periodical judgments based on something we do not know and if so, why not a third or hundreth during eternity? That's a long time!
Alexander and Anonymous,
After one more post on the RIch Man and Lazarus, I'll respond to the verses you've cited. After that, I need to get back to the original theme of the series.
There will be two resurrections a thousand years apart. Talk about innovated by invention.
Then again the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. This in itself would change the meaning. There is also the "dipping of the finger in water" and being in "Abrahams bosom" a major figure of speech. As I see the story is not true but a story told to provoke the pharisees.
Probably to add to confusion, I have heard years ago that the heavenly legal process is somewhat like ours. The suspects are rounded up and jailed, awaiting trial. So, there is one judgement. I'm not sure I accept this.
Except for the rich man & Laz, sleep is the best image, matching New and Old Testament ideas. Perhaps that is from our perspective, whereas Jesus' example is from God's, but as Alexander shows the matyrs don't fit. I'm not sure any idea I have heard fits perfectly.
Mark, I agree the RM & L is presented like a parable. Oddly its the only parable where a character is named. Also, whould Jesus use a false senario to explain or provoke?
I don't know of any place that says Abraham’s Bosom was the old Paradise of God.I see two places in scripture where this misconception could arrive from what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, and the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
I have been led to believe (by scripture) that when one dies we are separated spirit from body. (then)
Ecclesiastes 3:20: All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already in heaven before he went to the cross.
Matthew 8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
2nd Kings 2:1: And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment.
Is that judgment singular or plural?
My question still is unanswered: For those that believe there are two judgments, who makes the call where you go when you die if God makes the decision when all are called from the grave or depths of the sea for Gods final judgment?
That story is not meant to be a guide for what happens immediately upon death.
That most churches of Christ (due to their Presbyterian roots) hold to either a- or postmillenialism is the way it is. That the original understanding of the churches of Christ from the beginning, even among close friends of John himself (Papias) was premillenialism is a historic fact. Alternative undestandings to Revelation did not start before Origen around 250, and did not become established before the rise of the state-church.
Why two resurrections, 1000 years apart? Simply because that's what is written in pretty clear words:
So, the first resurrection will take place before the millenium and the second resurrection (of the lost) after the 1000 year reign.
For those who say the first resurrection taks place when we are born again and baptized (also called a resurrection, and rightfully so): When in your biography prior to baptism did you die as a martyr for Christ or lived a faithful life as a disciple that "earned" you the right to sit on thrones with Christ? Amillenialism is a theologiocal novelty (from the 3rd century), confusing and obscuring a rather straight-forward eschatology.
But that#s just a side-remark. The main point is: THere will be two distinct resurrections, and when people die the just will be separated from the unjust according to the judgment they will face.
Alexander
Sorry, Alabama John, for keepinmg you waiting – we are about 7 hours apart and I just rose from sleeping (I live in Vienna/Austria):
No. Abraham said clearly: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’" This is not the Roman Catholic purgatory (which is indeed unscriptural).
Who is carrying the souls to their place? The text says: "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side." Since the Angels are God's servants, I assume the Lord himself tells them to bring the "Lazarusses" to Abraham's side and the "rich men" to the place of torment, next to the place of rest in Hades.
The deignated places in Hades are – as it seems – just like a prison. In fact, that's what this place is also called in 1Pe 3:19. The judgment will be held for all at once. The books will be opened, and according to their works the people will get their punishment proportionally (that's what I believe).
There will be no sin in the New Heavens and the New Earth. And concerning the eternal state of humans and angels there is only the final judgment which is relevant. There were however, are and will be judgments of God on this earth: The Flood, Babel, Sodom, … up to (what many don't like to hear or to accept) catastrophes in our day can and should be seen as acts or at least signs of judgment. Why? Because that's what our Lord Jesus answered concerning a tower that crushed some people:
I can imagine, that these thoughts are new and irritating for all who thought otherwise or were raised in the rather simplistic view that as soon as you die you go either to heaven or hell (not understanding the nature of the resurrection, the reality of Hades, the two different judgements …). But I think this is the most natural meaning of the texts, just taken rather plain and literally without adding to many theories of how they could be understood differently.
Alexander
Good answers Alexander, thank you.
Alexander asked, "When in your biography prior to baptism did you die as a martyr for Christ or lived a faithful life as a disciple that “earned” you the right to sit on thrones with Christ?"
I believe by the description given by John, he was speaking of "The Apostles" to whom Jesus had previously made that promise, and of which John was one.
If that vision saw all people of christian faith, ruling with Christ, over whom would they enforce that rule, lost sinners, if so how would that ruling be enforced, are you saying God will give the righteous a thousand year period to exact their revenge on the non-righteous. Are you saying sinners are going to be punished for a thousand years before killed, and by Jesus and his followers. Is God going to place the sinners in bondage to the righteous, like the Jews were with the Egyptians. what you are saying has no reference anywhere else in scripture.
Personal visions were and are hard to interpret, I believe Daniel made a living doing it.
Also, whould Jesus use a false senario to explain or provoke?
I think false senario is the wrong term here.
Luke 11:24 we need to ask true or false
"When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, `I will return to my house from which I came.' 25 And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.
a little father down….
39 But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter ; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. 40 "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also ?
Jay
We are milling around the site like sheep without a shepherd. While milling I landed here.
It seems obvious to me that the Rich Man and Lazarus story is just that. An outlandish story. It is the foretelling of the raising of Lazarus of Bethany, disguised as a parable. It turned out just as Jesus said it would, “They will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”
Jesus hid some of his sayings in plain sight from the Sadducees and Pharisees just as the Bible said he would.