Too good not to pass along.
In a previous post, Patrick posed a common problem with how we understand God —
We have used Gregory Boyd’s opening illustration in “God at War” of the mutilation and death of the beautiful little Jewish girl, Zoysia, and commenters have come back to that and asked why God, once He saw that the Nazi was about to tear out her eyes, didn’t strike him down dead or otherwise stay his hand from such a horrific, evil deed.
In the following post, Patrick concludes,
Read Romans 8 two or three times now and then come back to this blog. Did you see it? God’s intention is for US to redeem this earth, this whole creation. …
If we drop the ball, do we blame our father? Our coach? Or do we blame ourselves and work harder in order to avoid making the same mistake again?
Who was tasked with reaching Zoysia? Her mother? The Nazi officers? We were. We had been sent to them 1900 years before and we didn’t get there. Instead, churches made themselves into secular or psychic temples. They became tame, irrelevant. So evil flourished and people found other gods to follow — including gods of pain and politics and murder.
Is it just possible that the greatest unfairness of all is the failure of the citizens of God’s Kingdom to bring the rest of the world in? We blame God, but God gave us a task. We decided we’d rather do something else, and now we blame God for the problems in the world. It’s not fair.
It’s hardly fair to the rest of the world that God would entrust such a task to the likes of us. After all, how are we supposed to take on something so hard? To pull that off, we’d have to have some kind of other worldly power, you know, like God Himself living within us. Now, if God would do that, then maybe we could be held responsible for the heartache and misery in the world.
Patrick also offers this bit of insight —
Zoysia and mother needed warriors [soldiers among the Allies in WWII] because those who should have taught love and kindness somehow dropped the ball when it came to Nazi Germany.
Why do we need armies? Why do we have graveyards filled with the corpses of brave young soldiers? Because the Kingdom failed to be the Kingdom. Had the church in Germany truly been God’s church, there’d have been no Nazi war machine. If the church had converted Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya — territories that were once nearly 100% Christian — the US would not be at war, and we’d have a very different budget problem in the US.
Why is there war? Because God expected us to do something about it — and we decided we had other priorities.
We can send missionaries or we can send soldiers. Either way, we put our children at risk. We can donate to the arming of troops or we can donate to missionaries. Either way, it costs money. Would you rather they go wearing Kevlar or the armor of God? Would you rather our money save souls or kill souls? Would you rather build nations on the Sermon on the Mount or spend billions trying and failing to build nations that are too corrupt, too vengeful, and too hate-filled to ever become nations?
Herein we find one of many differences between the politics of the world and the politics of Jesus. Only Jesus can prevent war. Only Jesus can change hearts so that people can be self-governing and yet govern well. Only Jesus can change people and nations and the world. And yet Jesus — for some reason — has decided that he is going to do much of that work through us. And if we refuse, well, there’s no plan B. We — and many others — suffer the consequences.
Is the work of the church political? Absolutely, because the work of the church could change the political face of the world more than every war and every governmental program put together. But only if the church sees that Jesus is the cure and that the church is an essential part of Jesus’ work among the people of this world. And only if the church sees that it’s mission, what it was called to do, is Jesus’ means of changing the world.
Jay said; “Is it just possible that the greatest unfairness of all is the failure of the citizens of God’s
Kingdom to bring the rest of the world in? We blame God, but God gave us a task. We decided we’d rather do something else, and now we blame God for the problems in the world. It’s not fair.
It’s hardly fair to the rest of the world that God would entrust such a task to the likes of us. After
all, how are we supposed to take on something so hard? To pull that off, we’d have to have some
kind of other worldly power, you know, like God Himself living within us.”
Jay, how is it that you teach we cannot save our own soul, by our works, but we are expected to
save others by that same method . If God dwells in us by the “Holy Ghost” to guide us, then it is
his fault when we fail.What happened to the “we bring the message, God convicts” .
Jay, Patrick and I have had many discussions,Patrick has a tendency to take his ball and go home, when he is loosing the game.Patrick teaches his version of what the bible says, not what it really says. and his last series has been more off the wall than usual, on “Open Theology” .
(I don’t know if it has something to do with the church he is transfering to or not, but)
Even Patrick can’t have it both ways, You can’t preach an all knowing God, and one that only knows history. They are not the same God.
How does God know Jesus is comming back, if it hasn’t happened yet, according to “open theology” events might cause him to change his mind.
Laymond,
Please don’t speak so disrespectfully of Patrick. It’s not fair to a very good man.
I addressed my views on the open theology question back in the series Seaching for the Third Way — /index-under-construction/theology-general/searching-for-the-third-way/. I am not an open theist, but I have no disrespect for those who are.
We are not controlled by the Spirit. Rather, we are strengthened and encouraged. And since we have free will, we can resist the Spirit.
Jay,
I am not about to dispute your statement that Patrick is “a very good man.”
I did read the blog that you provided the link for and I must admit it is difficult to find very much in the imaginings there to admire. The suggestion that God does destroy Satan this instant b/c He “loves” Satan is a bit of a stretch. Where, oh where is there the slightest support for that idea?
So Patrick may be a great guy, but perhaps he’s putting forth some not so great ideas. There have been times when I have engaged in thinking out loud and just let me mind go. Interesting to think about those thing, but at times like that I suspect many walk away unsatisfied. Open theology may fall into that category.
Grace and peace,
Randall
Hesed,
Randall
Randall,
I know Patrick and have great respect for him. You would too if you knew him.
If the readers wish to debate his positions on open theology, I would urge them to do so at his website, where he can be benefited from or reply to the criticism.
Jay, I have no doubt Patrick is as you say “a good man” and the reason I commented on your blog about his, is the fact that you used excerpts from his blog on yours to make a point.
Here is another excerpt from his blog “Even tsunamis and earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes can be explained via the brokenness of the world post-Adam and Eve and post-Flood. They can also be explained by remembering that God has enemies and they have long used storms and natural phenomena to attack God and His people. Baal was a storm god and so were many other gods mentioned in scripture.”
It requires a a little more explanation for me to believe God is attacked by Baal through ” tsunamis and earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes” .I don’t know this for a fact, but I doubt that the majority of thos who are harmed are Christians. yes he probally is a good man, but his theology leaves me guessing. MR. Mead does not look kindly on commenters who criticise him. I know.
Jay said “I know Patrick and have great respect for him. You would too if you knew him.”
But the fact remains most people know him through his writing.
If we have failed in the age that I have, and am living in, it is in constructing buildings and saying to ourselves “There I’ve built it, now the world can come in and receive salvation”. Instead of going our to the bars, nightclubs, prisons, and all those dark places where satan dwells, we’ve sat in our comfortable building and felt very satisfied with our effort to build the Kingdom. In short, we’ve purposely separated ourselves from the very people to which we would bring salvation. How many biblical examples are there in which the message is to go out and seek the lost. Yet, we sit there in our padded pew with the air conditioner blowing and wonder why the Church budget is in trouble and our numberd sre dwindling. There is absolutely nothing better for a Christian than getting out there among the lost and getting in the game. The harvest is indeed white… it’s just a bit of a dingy white and it always has been… even for you and me.
Doug,
You are right.
Who did Jesus associate with.
How many visit the orphans and widows much less those in prisons?
If you teach that an orphans and widows family by blood has the responsibility whether they help or not, it lets us off the hook.Many widows are old and some in nursing homes. Out of sight, out of mind. I don’t think the church they were a member of should even be notified when a widow dies since they have not visited in 4-5 years or more. Is hypocritical to do the funeral.
Let them be embarrassed when they find out.
Those in prisons? If they can’t be baptized they are lost and should of thought about that before committing a crime that got them in this fix. If they die lost, too bad, so why visit?
Way too much to be done here in our own backyard to let it be not done, or at least started first before sending out all over the world..
Jay said; “Why is there war? Because God expected us to do something about it — and we decided we had other priorities.”
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
No, Jay we cannot stop what God has put in motion. Although some think they have that power, they don’t. (open theology)
I know there are some today who preach, God cannot see the future, and the future is not set in place, but the bible says it is and, if we don’t believe in what Jesus said, why believe any of it.
Jesus told his apostles ” for all [these things] MUST come to pass” When the bible states “it shall come to pass” It is stating the future.
First time poster and new reader of this blog.
This is a topic I have been wrestling with and made a post on my blog with similar flavor
http://faithandinches.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/salt-in-contact-light-in-proximity/
Jay, this post definitely ties together many things I have been concluding but just never could adequately put to words.
Even so I am stuck with more questions than answers at the moment about engagement in my own community, posts like this and comments like I have been reading here have been invaluable in helping me work through things and begin to put legs to the message I have been preaching over the years. Thank you.
Laymond – Not to get into a debate that is not mine, but the Openness of God as an attribute and Open Theism as a doctrine are two distinct and competing, if not, contradicting theologies. The former supports God’s sovereignty and the latter more often than not denies it. Today they are popularly made synonymous, but in a strict sense they are not according historic Judaism.
ya can make all the rationalizations that we want
…the key word i would use is self seeking complacently…
escape that if you can but that word encroaches on antinomieism.
sad but true as i see my world
Jay,
I wonder why Patrick mead is following faithfully the teaching of Gregory Boyd’s to teach about “Gad’s war” is he a church of Christ preacher? His misconception about Romans 8. This chapter of the sacred Scripture does not talk about the failure of the Kingdom of God in Germany, Did Patrick knew the persecuted life of brother Hans Grimm ? In 1933 he was placed in a Nazi concentration camp in Germany for illegal preaching in Anhalt, Germany. His first library and manuscript were confiscated in 1934, and his second library and manuscript were bombed out in 1944 in Leipzig. In 1946-48 he served as professor in the Teachers’ College in Leipzig. In October 1948, he was arrested by the Communists for illegal preaching, serving a four-year term in the Red prisons of Leipzig, Waldheim and Graefentonna. He escaped to Berlin in December 1952, and from 1953 to 1955 was a lecturer of the Evangelical Academy in Kassel. At his first contact with the brethern from the United States (Roy Palmer and Otis Gatewood), Herr Grimm was recognized as a member of the churches of Christ. He served congregations at Kaiserslautern and Mannheim, Germany, and since May 1963, at Biel, Switzerland, under the supervision of the elders of Trinity Heights Church of Christ in Dallas. http://www.netbiblestudy.net/history/ if somebody is interested in reading the History of the churches of Christ in Germany (Central Europe) this website provide that information http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/StoryOfTheChurchesOfChristInCentralEurope.htm
My question is: Does Patrick understand the mission of the church? According to God is edified the saints, preach to the lost and benevolence. What is the mission of the church that belongs to Christ? Is just benevolence all the mission of the church? Of course not, The main purpose is to teach the Gospel of salvation. Our Lord Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36).
Jay said” Is it just possible that the greatest unfairness of all is the failure of the citizens of God’s Kingdom to bring the rest of the world in? the truth is that not all are going to be in just few. Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ our Lord Jesus said this great truth about who is going to be save in Luke 13:23-25 “23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ The Lord never says that the many are going to be save just those who make his will in this earth.
Jay said “ We blame God, but God gave us a task. We decided we’d rather do something else, and now we blame God for the problems in the world. It’s not fair. “ Problems are necessary to enter in the kingdom of heaven Acts 14:22 “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
. There are many things in this world that are necessary Like John 3:7, Jn. 4:24, Jn.9:4, Acts 9:16, Mt.23:23. 2 Cor. 5:10. 1 Tim. 3:2, Heb. 2:1. Heb. 7:12,Heb. 11:6. Jude 1:3
Everyday that we have we can teach the Gospel to our neighbors, friends, colleges and mainly our own relatives.
We need to remember what 2 peter 3:9 says “9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. The church (body) of Christ is the only group of people that has the Gospel for salvation. Romans 1:16. We are in this world but we don’t belong to this world. Phil 3:20 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,”. While we are here we are expose to everything but is necessary Jn.15:19 “19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” Jn. 17:15 “15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” 1 Jn. 2:15 “1 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 Jn. 2:16 “ For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.”
In our everyday spiritual fight is with our personal desires as mentioned in James 4:1-3 “Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. God is Fair he know our works ! Rev. 2:2; 9,13;19, Rev. 3:1;8;15. God tell us put on the whole armor of God.
guestfortruth, on July 28th, 2011 at 6:01 am Said: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
My question is: Does Patrick understand the mission of the church? According to God is edified the saints, preach to the lost and benevolence. What is the mission of the church that belongs to Christ? Is just benevolence all the mission of the church? Of course not, The main purpose is to teach the Gospel of salvation. Our Lord Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36).
Jay said” Is it just possible that the greatest unfairness of all is the failure of the citizens of God’s Kingdom to bring the rest of the world in? the truth is that not all are going to be in just few. Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ our Lord Jesus said this great truth about who is going to be save in Luke 13:23-25 “23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ The Lord never says that the many are going to be save just those who make his will in this earth.
Jay said “ We blame God, but God gave us a task. We decided we’d rather do something else, and now we blame God for the problems in the world. It’s not fair. “ Problems are necessary to enter in the kingdom of heaven Acts 14:22 “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
. There are many things in this world that are necessary Like John 3:7, Jn. 4:24, Jn.9:4, Acts 9:16, Mt.23:23. 2 Cor. 5:10. 1 Tim. 3:2, Heb. 2:1. Heb. 7:12,Heb. 11:6. Jude 1:3
Everyday that we have we can teach the Gospel to our neighbors, friends, colleges and mainly our own relatives.
We need to remember what 2 peter 3:9 says “9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. The church (body) of Christ is the only group of people that has the Gospel for salvation. Romans 1:16. We are in this world but we don’t belong to this world. Phil 3:20 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,”. While we are here we are expose to everything but is necessary Jn.15:19 “19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” Jn. 17:15 “15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” 1 Jn. 2:15 “1 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 Jn. 2:16 “ For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.”
In our everyday spiritual fight is with our personal desires as mentioned in James 4:1-3 “Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. God is Fair he know our works ! Rev. 2:2; 9,13;19, Rev. 3:1;8;15. God tell us put on the whole armor of God.
Jim,
I have a post on Open Theism coming in early August.
Thanks Jay looking forward to it, unless something happens to change your mind. 🙂 as you know there is no future.