23. What does the search committee reveal about the church? Why were these people selected? For their spirituality? For their cash contributions? For their family connections? For their submission to the elders? For their wisdom?
Don’t read more into the choices than is there, but you can actually learn something about the elders by whom they selected. If the committee is all male, all over age 60, or all wealthy, well, that says something.
24. Prepare your resume carefully. Some search committees will toss your resume for a single spelling error. Really. Have someone check it — someone who can spell.
It’s the internet age. Email it to a friend or two, someone who has a keen eye, and get it right. There’s no reason not to, and because everyone knows how easy it is to get help and get it right even if you’re spelling-challenged, there is no sympathy for mistakes.
25. It’s fashionable for ministers to write a document called a “Philosophy of Ministry” or the like. It can help — but only if you’re a good writer and say semi-intelligent things.
Avoid sounding like you’re the expert and avoid treating a recent evangelical book as scripture. Humility goes a long way. So does brevity. (The committee will have a lot of stuff to read and listen to.)
Don’t get too stressed about it. I don’t much care about those things (they all sound alike). In fact, I have to make myself read those things, and I don’t care if you don’t turn one in. I’m going to ask you about your philosophy anyway — and pay much more attention to our conversation than your carefully edited document.
Besides, I’m much more concerned about your story.
26. Be ready to tell your story. You’ll be asked to tell your “spiritual story” — and some preachers have incredible, life-changing stories. You might not.
That’s okay. My own story is pretty boring. But it’s mine and it’s me. The point of the story isn’t to hear how well you can preach (we heard your sermons before we called you). It’s to learn who you are deep inside. It’s to have a sense of how important Christianity is to you vs. just having a paying job. It’s to burrow deep into your heart.
And no one wants to read it typed up nice and neat. We want to ask you about it and see your face and body language as you tell us what Jesus really means to you.
27. Be ready to discuss your work ethic. You’ll be asked. The correct answer is that you’ve always worked as hard as the volunteers at your church, that is, that you work a fulltime job plus volunteer hours comparable to some of the church’s most dedicated volunteers.
Don’t talk about being a “professional” and not having to work all that many hours. The lawyers and accountants and engineers and doctors in the room will want to show you their work records. True professionals work hard — many hours beyond 40 — and there is no way to avoid that outcome.
If you’re not willing to work as hard as the members, find another career. Jesus deserves better.
In some churches, you might be asked to keep up with your hours. It’s a perfectly fair request. It’s not unduly intrusive (I do it every day) and not “micro-management.” Say yes — without resentment. You’ll be better for it.
In my experience, the most common accusation made against a minister is that he’s lazy and doesn’t spend enough time on the church’s business. And ministers who protest being accountable for their time put their elders in a position of being unable to defend them.
The solution is to (a) work hard and (b) be accountable for your time so no one can doubt it. Just the fact that you’re willing to be accountable and aren’t defensive will go a long way to reassure the elders and the members.
And, yes, I really know that it’s a pain in the neck and takes time away from other things. But once a church becomes concerned about your work ethic, refusing to be accountable can only look bad.
Of course, the best outcome is that the elders and other members see enough of you and your work for the church that they never doubt how hard you work. But sometimes, it just works out that the work you do is invisible to much of the congregation.
[This isn’t really for the interview, but you’ll save yourself a world of trouble if you’ll tell the church secretary when you’re out, where you’re going, and when you’ll be back. This way, when someone calls for you, she doesn’t say “I don’t know where he is” — which will always be taken to mean you’re not working. It could cost you your job — maybe your career.
Perceptions are the congregation’s reality, and if you’re not in and not telling the secretary where you are and why, then the members will figure that you’re goofing off. Why else would you not tell? (The answer, of course, is that some young preachers are too arrogant to feel accountable to anyone — which is even worse than being lazy.)]
Cleon Lyles is pretty much forgotten now but he was an institution among Churches of Christ in his day during a long ministry at 6th and Izard Church of Christ (now Windsong) in Little Rock, Arkansas. He wrote a book entitled Better Men For Better Churches which has a wealth of practical wisdom for the work of the preaching minister including excellent thoughts on minister-elder relations. Some of it is dated of course but it is worth finding an old copy and reading by both ministers and elders. Regarding how many hours the minister works he said the real question for churches and elders is, are you happy with the quality of the work product (preaching, visiting, etc.) of your minister? If you’re not then it really doesn’t matter if he works 80 hours a week. And if you are happy with the quality of his work what’s the point of nitpicking about the exact number of hours he works? Attorneys track their time down to the minute for one reason and one reason only- money and the concept of the minimum billable unit still allows for a certain amount of sloth for an attorney inclined towards sloth. I think it’s a poor model for ministers. Accountability is needed but when it becomes nitpicking or amounts to punching a time clock your minister will likely be a short term minister. There needs to be room for various styles of ministry. One minister I’ve known did his best study and work at a table in a diner for hours at a time. Yes it seemed strange to me too but he was an excellent preacher and a go to brother for other ministers in the region looking for counsel. Another minister friend specializes in restaurant evangelism- seriously. He’s even spoken about it at lectureships. He is a natural at connecting with the workers, especially immigrants, and has baptized many of them. Another minister friend, now deceased, had a “Hardees ministry” and hung out at a Hardees a couple of hours many mornings and baptized a number of his coffee buddies. All of them were/are unconventional and left themselves wide open to members with a penchant for criticising the preacher but all three have been wonderful ministers and brothers in Christ. One size does not fit all when it comes to ministry and putting a minister on what amounts to a time clock is counterproductive for both ministers and churches. Take Cleon Lyles’ advice and focus on the quality of your minister’s ministry. Are you happy with it? Is he blessing the life of your church? If not, get another minister. If so, don’t sweat the details.
Many of the particulars regarding this subject have to do with how the elders and church view the ministry of ministers. If he is simply another hired employee simply distinguished from the custodian only by the details on his job description then he will be treated as such and will be unlikely to have a long ministry there. In scripture we find a mutual accountability between evangelist/minister and elders. If an elder needs to be rebuked then, according to Paul, it is the evangelist who is to do it. That type of mutual accountability happens only when the minister is valued as an equal with the elders. It is true that the formal authority to make decisions for the congregation rests with the elders and not with the minister. But something is seriously wrong when elders make major decisions for the church without consulting the minister and seriously considering his thoughts. Elders and ministers should be allies and a strength to each other. That strengthens a church. When elders see themselves primarily as the minister’s supervisors and bosses the church is likely to be unhealthy and there will be a succession of short term ministers. A church that never has long term ministers (7 years plus) is likely a church that does not know how to value and treat her ministers.
The most valuable ministries for churches are often long term ministries. It is generally accepted that it takes 3-5 years for ministers to bond with their congregations and communities. That means the most effective years of a ministry don’t even begin usually until after the first five years. If ministers for a church do not ever stick around for that long there is a reason why. Rather than just mindlessly repeating the succession of short term ministers these churches would do well to have a professional church consultant in to analyze the situation and find out what the problem is.
Gary wrote,
I couldn’t agree more.
Gary wrote,
I couldn’t disagree more.
We don’t require our ministers to track their time. I don’t think it should be routinely required. But if I were a minister and if my eldership asked me to track my time, my choices are to say “yes,” “no,” or tell them all about professionals. The only winning tactic is “yes.”
If a preacher is so immensely talented that he can prepare his lessons and accomplish all he needs to do in 20 hours a week, what should he do with the rest of his time?
Well, if I were retired and had 60 more free hours a week to do something with, what should I do with them?
If your philosophy of life is that the goal of work is to maximize pleasurable leisure, then we have the standard American answer. But if our philosophy is to find joy in Kingdom labor, then the more “free” time we have, the more we’ll labor for the Kingdom, because that’s where our passion is — be we preacher, elder, or retiree.
And most of us have bought a lie — that the goal of life is time on the golf course or lake rather than time visiting the prisons, serving the poor, or teaching God’s word. Once we’re earned our pay, our time is “ours” and thus to be dedicated to leisure. And it’s just not true.
We are promised a rest, and it comes in the next age.
(Phi 1:21 ESV) 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
(Eph 2:10 ESV) 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Tit 2:14 ESV) 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
In short, the philosophy expressed by Lyles is a capitalistic philosophy, built on the American Dream: once I’ve earned my pay, my time is my own. It’s not. It was bought with a price. We are not our own.
Jay, I don’t think we disagree as much as you suggest. Of course a minister has no choice but to say yes if elders want him to track his time and no minister, no matter how talented, can “do the work of an evangelist” in 20 hours per week. Of course a full time minister should work full time- 40 hours plus the equivalent of what an active member spends each week on a volunteer basis. My comment is about emphasis. The evidence of the mistrust many born and bred CoC members have of ministers is more than evident just in the comments on this blog. If that mistrust is also expressed in the attitude of the elders, or even some of them, trying to make sure the minister works hard enough then he is not likely to be there long term. And if that attitude is repeated with each minister then that church will have a succession of short term ministers- to everyone’s detriment. Cleon Lyles was right in general: if you trust your minister and he is doing a good work then don’t sweat the details and if he is not then it won’t help if he works 80 hours per week. Of course he was not suggesting let the minister get by with 20 hours per week.
There should be flexibility with ministers. If he unavoidably has a 60 hour week one week he may need an easier 30 hour week the next week. It should be recognized that nearly every church activity and gathering is real work for the minister- including fellowship activities. Other Christians may focus primarily on themselves at such times but the minister will be making sure that the newcomer or the member going through a quiet crisis is not alone and will go and talk to them if no one else is. The minister will be trying to make sure that everyone is ok. A two hour lunch with a member or visitor or a person in the community or another minister will likely be time well spent in ministry or in recharging for ministry even though it doesn’t fit with a punching the timeclock mentality. Next to Bible study and prayer ministry is almost entirely about relationships and time spent building relationships with members and nonmembers is time well spent. I knew of a church some years ago that required their minister to be in the office 8 hours a day. All of his visiting had to be in the evenings and on weekends. When the church subsequently had problems I was not surprised with leadership like that.
Ministers are on pedestals to some but for others, especially some of our born and bred members, they have bullseyes on their backs and are constantly scrutinized and criticized. If they feel they also have to prove to their elders that they are working hard enough they probably will move on to where they will be better appreciated. The minister is not primarily a church employee even if he is technically such any more than a church is primarily a corporation even if it is technically such. A preaching minister is the evangelist of the congregation and he should be treated as an equal by the elders in a relationship of mutual accountability. It is in no ones interest to treat the minister as a hired servant. There may be some apt analogies with the business world but the church is not a business and the business model fundamentally does not fit churches and ministers. The legal model of making every minute a billable minute especially does not fit. The minister should be building for the long term and not have to worry about making the time sheet look good for the partners/elders as if he is their associate or clerk.
The special and sometimes extreme situations placed on ministers should also be taken into consideration. When a minister performs a weekend wedding he has no weekend off to speak of. He is basically working two weeks straight. Few elders will ever be called on to perform funerals for children or those who commit suicide but, given enough time, most ministers will. The personal toll of such experiences can in no way be measured in the hours they take.
Having personally done all these things that Gary notes as taking such a personal toll, I am reminded that other professionals handle such difficult work more regularly and more intensely without the drama and quasi-martyrdom I sometimes hear from preachers. The local preacher will get little sympathy in this regard from child protective investigators or police officers or firefighters or ER trauma docs and nurses.
I have done this job myself. Yes, I have been at the jail with the bondsman at midnight, in the hospital waiting room with countless families, preached funerals for children, comforting one family who was losing an infant to cancer on the very morning one of my own children was born. But looking at the whole thing overall, the average preaching job is just not that difficult.
I appreciate the stresses that come from this job, but this ain’t walking a beat in the South Bronx. This is not entering burning buildings looking for victims. This is not making life and death decisions over the opened abdomen of a cancer-riddled patient. It’s just not. It’s not even struggling with scientific challenges or the intellectual rigor of the college professor. As the average preacher, your job is mainly developing two or three half-hour, high-school level lectures a week on topics that particularly interest you, and having some pleasant conversations with people who welcome you and who value your views. Maybe a half-day a week discussing serious problems in counseling sessions, and maybe one or two challenging conversations. Being a preacher does have its tough moments, but for the most part, it is less stressful than door-to-door commission sales or being a teacher in an urban high school.
I respect my brothers in the preaching profession, but when I hear more than a few of them talk about “being on call 24/7” and otherwise exaggerating the demands of their work, I lose a lot of that respect. Brothers, just do your job and be grateful that by-and-large it is one of the less-demanding professional jobs out there. Remember, much of what you do for pay is also being done by people in your congregation — for free. Many non-clergy Christians spend considerable time in prayer and study, in counsel and in ministering to our heartbroken friends. We give support, locate resources, and listen long into the night to each other’s troubles. We spent more time “sitting up” with that grieving family and preparing funeral meals and singing at the service when you called us than you did preparing the eulogy and the fifteen-minute funeral sermon.
Let us not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.
Charles, believe it or not I agree with you. Ministry can be at times a cushy job; at other times it can be excruciating in its demands. But it is not the most demanding occupation by a long shot. Christian public school teachers are the unsung missionaries of our day as are government social workers on the front lines such as yourself. The one difference that still stands out to me between ministry and other lines of work is that the minister has few meaningful boundaries between his ministry and his personal life. Marital and parenting problems don’t ordinarily affect “secular” professions, at least not directly. But the minister, his personal life, his marriage, his children and his ministry are inextricably bound together. I can’t think of any other line of work that is the same to that extent.
My deeper concern is that we are doing something wrong in Churches of Christ regarding our ministers. Most of them don’t last a lifetime in ministry. This has long been true. When I lived in Nashville in the 70’s and early 80’s Churches of Christ were full of former ministers. When we lose so many ministers in the prime of their experience and knowledge something is wrong and I can’t put my finger on it. This phenomenon seems to be unique to Churches of Christ. Most other denominations have just the opposite happening. They attract large numbers of Christians going into ministry as a second career in their 30’s, 40’s and even 50’s. I would love to know what we are doing wrong to burn through and out so many of our ministers who set out to spend their lives in service to the church.
Just for the record I am wide open to women in ministry including the pulpit. When writing formally I am careful to use inclusive language. But my thought patterns were formed before the onset of inclusive language and it’s difficult for me to think both of what I want to say and how to say it inclusively.
When you have accountants leaving one firm after ten years, while another firm down the street continually attracts accountants with ten years’ experience, the difference is almost always management.
Gary, yes, the “on-display” issue is often significant for clergy. Few spouses and children are incorporated in evaluating the professional’s job performance. This is somewhat better than it used to be, but it is still a real stressor in some places. Perhaps the biggest problem is that there is no place like the clergy where you cannot escape your personal problems at work… in fact, they follow you there and get magnified for general consumption.
Charles, regarding the accountants analogy, I have found most elders to be great guys as well, dedicated to Christ and good to the minister. Of course there are exceptions. Whatever is causing our ministers to drop out by or in middle age it seems to be systemic. I think part of the problem is that we are so ambivalent about the role of the minister in the life of the local church. I still see the minister as the evangelist but that is an outdated concept to most now.
Let’s chase the analogy a little further. I have worked for “great guys”, guys who were kind to me personally, but whose handling of their general business responsibilities was, at best, at odds with how I saw both the good of the company and its mission. We eventually parted ways. This also happens in the ministry. This may be the disconnect, more than an interpersonal one. In the church, I have seen this arise in numerous ways, mostly from leaders saying one thing and meaning another. Not that this was malicious or deceptive; sometimes I don’t think these elders even knew there was a difference until the rubber met the road.
“We want new members.” But now we GOT them, people from other religious backgrounds who bring different ideas and traditions and who want to be involved beyond attending and paying. We did not really mean we wanted “new” members, we wanted more of the same kind of members we already have. What is going to happen when “they” start outnumbering “us”? New members are disruptive and scary.
“Yes, we want you to ‘equip the saints for works of service’.” But what do you mean you want elders to go out visiting with you? That is YOUR job. And these people who are doing new ‘ministries’ are now asking for money for those ministries. We already have a ministry budget, and it’s your salary.
“We want biblical teaching.” But not those parts of the Bible which our fathers told us do not apply to us anymore. And not that radical stuff Jesus said. We want regular sermons on baptism and church attendance and how what we think is indeed the one true way. That’s what we meant by ‘biblical’. Don’t be dense: you grew up here, you know the program.
“We want our youth to be taught.” But you are just stirring up things. These kids go home and ask their parents pointed questions which make them uncomfortable, and then the parents complain to us. Stop that. Take them to Six Flags.
“We want our preacher to be well-studied and educated in the scriptures.” But not to the point where we wind up losing debates to him over our long-held doctrines and traditions. You don’t have to tell us everything you know. We didn’t hire you to change US.
Nice guys, really. Good husbands and fathers. I have been fired by some genuinely good people. (Not all, but some.) But they were just fellows who either did not know or could not admit that all they really wanted was a return to 1958 church life… and some peace and quiet between services. They just didn’t mention this in the interview. I think some of them were genuinely befuddled as to how things broke down. After this same scenario of being in agreement in principle but not in practice plays out time and again, more-principled preachers get burned out, because they can’t abandon their vision for the church. Sadly, the ones who are more likely to remain are the ones who learn how to “go along and get along”, whose main job skill is keeping the boat above water and not rocking it.
Charles you summed it up really well. I have said for many years that Christianity cannot stay in the late 1950s. I realize those were the peaceful years between the Korean war and Vietnam, but it’s impossible to return to the past. I know why some try so hard to do it, but it isn’t going to happen. We would be far better off to just admit that everything has changed and continues to change faster than we would like.
I have never heard a church ask anyone for help in reaching out to the younger generations. The closest thing I have seen is when ministers write their own blogs. I often think that is because the older members of their congregations do not know how to find the blog and therefore the ministers can talk to the younger generations without upsetting the big donors. I have never heard of a church asking tech savvy people and some who aren’t to look at their new website in the making to see if it is user friendly and first rate. I have never heard of a church of Christ Minister bouncing one sermon off of anyone save an elder for something controversial to get an opinion as to its usefulness. The younger generations would love to participate if only they were asked. They also might find it shocking but quite nice if the minister ever invited them, as a group of say young hyper competitive professionals, to go to dinner during the week where they would be permitted to ask any questions of the minister they wanted to and even openly discuss the notorious topics. Basically let them see the minister as a human who is there to help. Many of these young professionals would gladly offer the minister ideas and might even write him/her a sermon/homily. The elders probably wouldn’t like any of this as it would not be a sanctioned event which they could control.
Now when you have church elders become a self propagating group no one else is allowed to participate and contribute. That makes people who are younger not care about an organization if they can neither contribute nor participate.
Mark brings up a good point about the too-common disconnect between elders and the younger adult members of their congregations. This is not intended as a slam, but as an encouragement to reconsider our assumptions and business-as-usual.
Brother Joe is 36 years old. He is a stable and mature Christian, and has been active in the congregation and taught Sunday school for ten years. He has a great family with two teenaged boys who are already believers. His entire family has a good reputation in the church, in the community and in the schools. Joe is well-versed in scripture and acts as a resource and sounding board for his peers. Question: why will Joe not be considered for eldership for another 15 years?
The elders want to see leadership develop among other people in the congregation. So why are elders’ meetings closed to people who might develop into leaders?
What is the plan for developing leaders? How do the elders plan to entrust (not just assign) important things to other members of the congregation?
What is the elders’ plan for seeking out the members’ gifts and encouraging them to activate them and use them?
All of these things, it seems to me, are more important than getting quotes on liability insurance and re-paving the parking lot and trying to decide how much we can spend this year on sending kids to a youth conference.
Also, let me ask why the monetary aspects of a congregation are not handed over to a committee of businessmen and women and accountants? They would be very comfortable getting bids and taking care of the spending. If someone is an expert, use the person in that role. That would free up the elders who think they have to do budgeting and get bids on parking lot repairs.
Now if Joe were an episcopalian or Jewish he could run for a term on the vestry/temple board and be involved in the managing of the parish/congregation. This way those who are qualified can serve but no one can stay on forever so few get burned out. Even Joe’s wife could run too. I know why elders don’t want to give up control and power but at the same time many have abdicated their responsibility to the congregation in terms of teaching and pastoral care.
Lastly, why doesn’t the cofC rotate which elders can vote in which year? That way no one gets too powerful. This is the same method used by the federal reserve.
How many of the present Elders in churches of Christ match the scriptures in having their children still in their house being trained? The message about obedient children is not applicable after they leave home. Of course, my intention here is to show that the scriptures identify there were Elders in the early church that were much younger than the Elders of today.
Larry,
I have been in churches where the rule about obedient children was applicable even after the child left home and may even have his/her own family. Basically the rule can be summed up as the child must be an active member in good standing in only a cofC.
Mark,
I understand, but I believe that we have been taught a regulation that is not according to the scriptures. Many preachers in small churches push any concept to disqualify men from becoming Elders. They will develop a click of supporters and through this click rule the church. I have seen it in operation.
We have all been taught regulations that originated from man but enough proof texting could make some think that they came from scripture. However, when people believe something for so long, it becomes the truth. Rarely can minds and opinions be changed. Some fear a slippery slope that if we correct our thinking on one issue then we will look at other issues (you know the hot ones).