Here’s another take on the baptism question. What do you think?
[poll id=”3″]
I realize some may agree with more than one question. Pick your favorite.
The previous poll asked,
A convert with genuine saving faith is shot and dies moments before entering the baptistry. He intended to be baptized for remission of his sins. He is —
Out of over 100 responses, not a single person picked: “Damned. Only the baptized are saved.” And yet that’s the traditionally stated view. We have uniformly agreed that either there is an exception for a death that prevents baptism or that we don’t know the answer. (One person answered that the circumstance could never happen, because God wouldn’t let it.)
No one is willing to assert that if someone is driving to the church to be baptized and is killed by a train, he is damned. And yet that was the teaching of countless revival sermons in my youth. (Does the desire to save someone justify emotional manipulation? Maybe that can be another poll down the road.)
Rex Butts made the excellent observation that our view of baptism reflects our view of God. I’m glad to see that no one is willing to teach that God damns such a person.
I also agree with Rex that the conversation, both in tone and content, has been very good.
Today’s poll is more challenging. Consider an individual without the intellect or commentaries or tracts necessary to conclude that baptism is “for” and not “because of” remission of sins. I’m not saying this is a stupid person, only that he isn’t able to do independent research at the M. Div. level. There are, after all, some very capable Greek scholars who argue “because of” in Acts 2:38. This is a debate that’s been going on for centuries. (I’m in the “into” camp, which is closer to “for” than “because of.”)
The new convert doesn’t have access to Greek grammars or Church of Christ preachers. He is correctly taught about Jesus but incorrectly taught about baptism. He obeys as well as he knows how but with an incorrect understanding. Does that damn him?
I voted for the first one even though I am uncomfortable with "and baptism doesn't matter". It matters. I voted for the first and not the second as I believe faith in Jesus is more importance than obedience. Faith leads to obedience but faith comes first.
I voted for saved, for another reason.
OK this person has faith in Christ and was baptized with an improper theology of baptism. Actually – and this is part one of my anwer – "theology" is not an appropriate term forthe meaning of baptism. We may call it "baptismology", but "theology should be reserved for when we reason about Theos/God. This puts the doctrine of baptism on a way different level than understanding Christ and the Gospel.
Second answer: Even when coming go Christ, our understanding of Hima dn what He did may be incomplete and in parts even wrong. Why? Because we hear the message with ears that are not familiar with Bible language. So even the word "to believe" may very likely be misunderstood at the beginning of our walk with Him.
That's why I have a prpblem with the phrase "genuine faith" as well. It comes close to "perfect baptism". Would we consider a person saved that repented of his sins, but does not (yet) believe or understand the trinity? Or would we consider him truly born again if he has doubts concerning the virgin birth? What, if he came to Christ in a church that teaches liberal theology?
Such a person may grasp the essence ofthe Gospel, but be serioulsy and bobjectively wrong and misled on a host of doctrinal matters – and when we converse with him, we might be puzzled and question his faith.
Baptism is one step in the process of salvation. A very important one, to which several promises are tied. Now, the person in the question has faith that is called "genuine", so let's say he has a decent understanding of Christ and the Gospel. But he was wrongly informed about the meaning of baptism. Yet he was baptized.
Mark 16:16 say: Who believes and is baptized will be saved. Not: Who believes and correctly understands his baptism will be saved.
We are not saved by theology or baptismology, but by a CHILDLIKE faith. 1Co 1 and 2 speak volumes about the intellectuals and the childlike believers; and Paul – being an intellectual – willfully put aside his rhethoric skills in order to present a simple Gospel for simple People. Quite a lot of what we are debating in this Blog is far far beyond the capacities of simple people – can illiterate people be saved? Indeed they can, and I expect there to be more illiterate people in heaven than theologians. (That' BTW also an important thesis in the Declaration and Address / prop Nr 6)
A historical argument from the RM: Alexander Campbell was baptized in 1812 by a Baptist. The Brush Run church became even a member of a Baptist Association. They were in fellowship for more than 10 years. Regardless when Campbell discovered that forgiveness of sins was tied to baptism, he obviously never questioned the validity of the baptisms performed by Baptists.
Even more stunning: The Restoration Movement started several years before they reconsidered the question of baptism and got baptized. Do we believe these brothers and sisters were saved before 1812?
I am aware that some hardliners would be willing to damn Campbell because he was not rebaptized after he came to a deeper understaning of baptism. But let#s be clear that such an attitude was never a part of the original Restoration Movement.
A last thing: What counts on judgement day is charity not theology. There is not ONE theological question the Lord will ask on that day, but if we fed the hungry, clothes the naked, visited those who were sick or in prison.
Would we consider anyone saved, who has "genuine" faith and a "perfect" baptism who does NOT do these things?
Alexander
Though the top three choices were all good, I voted for saved for another reason
In Acts 2:38, both repentance and baptism are a command of Christ, but forgiveness and the Spirit are a promise of Christ. You obey a command and receive a promise [forgiveness], but you cannot obey a promise. [Jimmy Allen, Re-Baptism, 1991 Howard Publishing]
Historyguy almost got it right. You can obey a command WITH a promise. Otherwise nobody could obey Ephesians 6:2-3. I like Jimmy, whom I had as a professor during my time at Harding U in the early 1980s, but we would have had a lively discussion if that was truly the position Jimmy took. I never got that from him in the early 80s, but Jimmy wasn't the sort to harden positions where others took sincere and substantive issue with him, either. He may well have adopted that position later or at least learned to express himself differently.
So my answer was number two. I would caution that the conclusions you draw, Jay, go well past what the answer states. I do not have an M.Div. and I rarely refer to the few Greek grammars I have, so it really takes neither to be able to read and resond to the truth. That said, I count it a careless mistake not to look further than the surface of a quick read when facing the decision whether to become a disciple of Jesus. Jesus seemed to take such a view as well in Luke 14:28-32. In fact, reading that passage makes it pretty clear to me that anyone who heard Him in that discourse would have been expected to share the view that a cost assessment is not only in order, but practically unthinkable to neglect.
Blessings,
Grizz
Wendy,
Separating obedience from faith is like separating breathing from living. This is not a hierarchy of command value. That is Western 20th-21st century thinking creeping into what should be a 1st century middle-eastern approach to the subject. We all struggle with that, and probably nobody more than I do, but that does not excuse us from adopting the mindset of those for whom and to whom and by whom the message was delivered and recorded in the scriptures. We are not immersed into Christ to please ourselves, whether or not it actually does please us. We are immersed into Christ because our Master calls us to do so, which is all a servant needs to understand about anything to which the Master desires to call His servants. If we are His at all it is because we have surrendered all the final say so to Him. That is what faith/trust is.
Blessings,
Grizz
." Quite a lot of what we are debating in this Blog is far far beyond the capacities of simple people – can illiterate people be saved?"
If this is so, then it is not worth discussing. What was it Paul said about talking in a language, not understandable?
I voted for yes or another reason. I wanted to clarify (and it may go without saying that he has faith). When I have faith (trust, loyalty etc) in Jesus and I act on that faith by being baptized I have been added to the kingdom. I certainly didn't understand all that God was doing when I was baptized, but I firmly believe he was acting. As I understand the word today, he even did some things I thought he wasn't doing, or at least in a way different than I had been taught.
So far six have commented, and none have completely agreed, since five of the commenters confess to being indwelled by the same comforter/advisor, looks like they could at least be closer together than they are.
As for (laymond) he can be forgiven, he is to stupid to understand the question.
I admit it I come in at the bottom when compared to the intellectual giants that comment here.
Jay,
I'm a little unsure about the question. Is it saying that he was taught specifically that baptism is not for the forgiveness of sins? That was a common practice in some churches in Argentina, to show their separation from the Catholic practice. They would pronounce, at the time of baptism, "This is not for the forgiveness of sins."
If we are talking about a specific denial of one of the biblical purposes for baptism, then I have problems with said baptism.
If the question is about a person who was merely taught that baptism is for obedience and wasn't specifically taught that it is for forgiveness of sins, I don't have a problem with that. Repentance is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 3:19), whether or not we are conscious of that fact or not.
Plus, I have yet to meet anyone who had a full understanding of all the implications of baptism when they were baptized.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
i selected the "i don't know" option.
i will say that there seems to me an important difference between:
(a) A person baptized unaware that it was for the forgiveness of sins.
(b) A person baptized believing it was *not* for the forgiveness of sins.
If a person's beliefs about the rite at the time of rite have *nothing* to do with its efficacy, then that just is sacramentalism, no? The power is in the ritual?
i mean, try applying the same distinction to Christology. i'm not sure i can set it up to satisfy everyone, but i think the example could be modified.
(a) A person who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, but is unaware that this means Jesus is on par with God the Father.
(b) A person who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, but believes that Jesus is *not* on par with the Father.
Doesn't it make some difference?
–guy
Tim and Guy,
Our hypothetical convert was taught that baptism is in obedience and because of forgiveness previously received.
Jay,
Yes. i understood that. i still said i don't know. i do think the differences i point out matter, but for me those differences don't supply me sufficient grounds to give a more definite answer than "i don't know." My official answer is "i don't know"–but i have doubts/problems based on the distinction i raised. In raising it, i simply wanted to call attention to this distinction as having some significant bearing on the discussion.
–guy
I selected "I do not know" simply because the Scripture does not address this issue, and it would be presumptuous of me to pontificate where God is silent in His revelation. However, I lean toward "Yes because his baptism was for obedience, which is one of several good reasons." As I understood Jimmy Allen's book, Rebaptism, that is his position – but I may not be as sharp on this as Grizz and HistoryGuy!
Jerry
Like I suggested on a previous thread…
Maybe instead of arguing why those with faith in Jesus Christ but have not been baptized according to OUR (yours, mine) understanding of baptism do not have assurance, maybe we should be praying for their pardon (atonement) the way Hezekiah prayed for the pardon of the people who at of the Passover while unclean (2 Chr 30.18-21). Look at how God responded to such a prayer.
Grace and Peace
Christianity is a taught religion (Mt. 28:18-20,Mark 16: 15-16), as is all religion (Heb. 8:10-11). We can not be taught wrong, and be right in our religion. The Bible therefore, It’s our guide, director, and governor in all things religious if we would be assured of faithfulness (James 1:25). No man can come to Christ for his salvation without being taugh (John 6:44-45).
1).- How can we understand the Bible Alike? B.J. Clarke 2006 Power Lectures;Southaven church of Christ, southaven,Mississippi.P.15.
Are you suggesting pray for the death? That sound like the doctrine of Purgatory. Do you belive in the purgatory K. Rex Butts? The bible speaks about Hades Luke 16:19-31. where the soul of the deaths are. and is divided in tartarus "torments" and Abraham’s bosom "Paradise". This is the place where all the deaths are now, waiting until the Judgement day. (Mt. 25:31-46; Rom. 14:12, Rev. 20:11-15) At that time all mandkind will give an account of the deeds done in the body, whether good or bad; Judgement will be pronounced, and the execution of judgement will begin (Cf. Mt. 7:21-23; Luke 12:47,48) After that God divide the people some for Heaven and others to Gehenna (Hell), the eternal place of condemnation for all the wicked Mt. 25:41,46; II Tess 1:9; Mark 9:44-48; 12:40;Rev. 21:8. The other side is Heaven, the eternal home of the righteous (Rev. 21:22-5, Jn. 14:1-3; 1 Peter 1:4). There the inhabitants will live in perfect peace and never grow old, for in God's presence there is "fulness of joy" and "pleasures for evermore" (Ps. 16:11).
What must I do to be saved? (Acts 16:30) This is the most important question ever to be considered. The same question was ask to the Lord Jesus during his ministry in different circumstances’ . “ what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” ( Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25) Where will your soul spend eternity?
1.- The word "What" is important. There is something one must do to be saved. Some religionist declare that there is nothing one can do to be saved and there is nothing one can do to be lost, once he is saved. The Bible declares:"Save yourselves from this untoward generation: (Acts 2:40), and work in your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil.2:12). The Apostle paul declared, "For by grace are ye saved "THROUGH FAITH"; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (not by our own merit "Grace"): Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). God's part is by grace, but man's part is by faith in action.
2.- "MUST"!
“ What must I do?” he inquired. The question implies something MUST be done. It is imperative! One must do something, or be Lost!
3,- “ I “
“what must I do to be saved? This is a personal matter. No one else can resolve this question for you. Not your mother, not your father, not your wife not others for you. Indeed, it is what must I do to be saved?
4.- “do” this word implies “action” something to be accomplish.
The answer came from the men of God immediatly. They said,: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 11:6, we are told it is impossible to please God without faith; while in John 8:24 we are told, “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
The question to be resolved are: what does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Does believing on Christ merely mean giving mental assent to the mind that Christ is the son of God? According to the scriptures, belief in Christ is much more that that. Hear the apostle paul, in Romans 10:13-17. As he quoted the prophet “For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?” Now hear the conclusion: “So then faith (belief) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
They could not believe until they heard. It is very obvious that when Paul told the jailor to believe on the Lord, it was necessary that the jailor be told WHAT to believe before he could believe. He was told to believe only. Many preachers today may be heard to say: “Just believe only and be saved.” Or, “Just lay your hand on the radio,TV and believe on the lord and be saved right where you are,” ,” Just hold up your hand.” Or, “ Just repeat this prayer withme “the sinner prayer.” Not so in the scriptures, however.
BELIEVE ONLY?
Does faith alone save? Faith alone is death! The Spirit concluded: “ Ye see the how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2:17-24). There is something one MUST DO to be saved. Believing only never save anyone. The apostle conclude that salvation is “ NOT BY FAITH ONLY” In all the records of the conversions, found in the books of Acts, we never read a person being saved by Faith only.
Having told the jailor to believe on the lord, verse 31, the very next verse states, “and they spoke unto him the word of the Lord” Why did they speak the word of the Lord after having told them to believe on the Lord? Because they could not believe unless they heard, for belief comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). It was necessary for the jailor and those of his company to hear the word of God; then after hearing the Gospel (Rom.1:16), it was necessary for them to believe and obey in order to be saved. Christ is the author of salvation unto all who obey Him (Heb. 5:9).
REPENTANCE-BAPTISM
Obedience to the Gospel is essential to salvation. Paul and Silas preached the “Word of the Lord” and the jailor believed and obeyed the word of the Lord. Those who do not obey the Gospel of Christ will be lost. Paul declared that when Christ comes again, He is coming in “flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 1:7-8). What did they preach when they “spake unto him the word of the Lord?” The Gospel for sure (Rom. 1:16).
Jesus commanded, “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” ( Luke 13:5). That they repented of their sins, as commanded by the Lord, is evidenced by the fact that they “washed their stripes,” indicative of a penitent heart. They didn’t wash the lacerated bodies of these men of God when they placed them in jail. The change of heart was the result of hearing the “word of the Lord” and believing what was heard.
Paul commanded the jailor to be baptized into Christ when he “Spoke the word of the Lord. (Gospel).” Jesus commanded, “ Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mk.16:15-16). Did Paul and Silas preach this Gospel to the Jailor? There can be no doubt about it; if he preached the “word of the Lord,” This is what he preached because the gospel is in the word of the Lord. As faithful gospel messengersm they told the jailor just what Christ said me must do to be saved, namely: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”
Furthermore, we know they preached Christ’s command, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,” when they spoke the word of the Lord,” because verse 33 of the divine record reveals “and he took them the same hour of the nigh and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway.”
Question: why were they baptized, even the same hour of the night? Because they “believe on the Lord” ( Not only believe) and obeyed the word of the Lord. They believe Christ when he commanded: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” They were told what they must do to be saved!
“What must I do to be saved?” The jailor and those of his house were saved by faith and obedience. They repented of their sins. They were baptized into Christ where they became new creatures in Christ ( Acts 16:33; 2 Cor. 5:17). Having obeyed the “form of Doctrine.” The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ by Baptism, they were then “ made free from sin” (Rom. 6:3-5, 17,18).
In difficult cases those who are in Hospice or dying and they understand the Gospel of Christ and desire with all their heart to be baptize for the remissions of their Sins, We can make arrangement with the hospice place and ask for a place like a pool or a big inflatable pool and baptizing them for the remission of their sins. Previously understood that what he is doing is for the remission of his sins. And if by the will of God still alive continue teaching the scriptures givin them spiritual milk until God call that person to his presence. But to be save need to be baptize for the remissions of his sins!! We can not assume that just because only believe is already save. Need to obey Jesus command in ( Mat. 28:18-20, Mk. 16:15-16).
Jay,
What is your anwer? Can we taugh wrong, and be right in our belief? The Diciple who does such thing is deceiving the prospect to become a Child of God. And at the Judgement day is going to recive what deserve. We seen the example of the Pharisees when Jesus call them whitewashed tombs ! (Matthew 23:27).
Yes, because he has faith in Jesus, even though a more correct teaching of baptism still matters.
Alexander,
A most excellent comment. Thanks for posting it.
Guestfortruth,
Do we have to agree on everything that touches the Bible or just certain things? And if certain things only, what things?
It's easy to blithely demand agreement but must we agree on the meaning of the four horsemen in the Revelation? Must we agree on what Paul meant when he referred to baptism of the dead? Must we agree on the age of the earth? To the nearest thousand years or to the exact year?
That's not to say there aren't some things on which we must agree. Rather, it's to insist that we be careful in our speech and note the very real distinction between essentials and non-essentials.
And the test for what is essential and what is not will be found in the scriptures, not the tract rack.
Therefore, before you specify what you consider to be essential to salvation, you need to be able to cite book, chapter, and verse for that claim — not that what you say is true, but that it's essential.
I'm glad to argue for the truth of my view on the age of the earth, but I'd never claim that agreement is essential to salvation. But some things are.
Grizz,
Thank you for your comments about Jimmy and his position. I cannot offer a date as to if or when his views changed, but Jimmy seems to have been against the practice of reimmersion for most of his life. I will let him speak and found a copy of his book online. The link should open the book in the Ch. 2 "why write this book." I think he makes some great points in the book as a whole.
http://books.google.com/books?id=TD2Lm467f6IC&…
grace and peace, my friend.
I voted Yes, but with a comment. "Sorry if I ramble"
I am having a problem believing that our baptism "causes" or is the "action" that forgives our sins. Which seems to be what you have to believe if Baptism is "for" the forgiveness of sin. Hebrews 9 explains that Jesus entered the Holy place once for all sins and His blood atonement was all perfect and is not needed again. So he does not need to enter the Holy place every time a new convert is baptized so that their sins are forgiven. So, since Jesus died once for all and all sins are atoned for, what are being baptized for? We are not baptized "for" anything. We are baptized "into" Chirst from whom we recieve all His promises: salvation, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit. One pastor that I was talking to recently loosley eaquated it to a wedding ring. You have already made the commitment in your heart, repented, confessed and then you wear your baptism as an outward sign of your spiritual rebirth. Not sure I agree totally with this analogy but it made me think.
I don't know for sure, but I would speculate that a majority of people who are baptized "not for remission of sins", nevertheless think their baptism joined them to Christ in some way. Preachers can teach theologically that baptism is not necessary all they want to, but when it comes to the practice, most people think they need to be baptized to realize their salvation.