Thought Question: “God Made Me Do It”

Anyone old enough to remember Flip Wilson?

This is from Ed Sullivan, circa 1970 AD:

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Now, in the modern church, circa today AD, we don’t say “The Devil made me do it.” We blame God. Or the Holy Spirit.

In fact, some of the worse things ever done to me were done by people claiming to have been “led by God” to do what they did. And, yes, they prayed about it. They prayed because they felt guilty, but after praying enough, they concluded that God wanted them to do the very thing they wanted to do but felt guilty about! And it’s not wrong if God tells you to do it.

I have a friend who is a Baptist deacon. He likes to say, “I’ve never seen a pastor ‘called’ to a new job that didn’t pay more than the old one.”

Well, that’s the cynical side of me. On the other hand –

I know ministers who gave up secure positions in which they were very successful to take much less money and yet do a ministry they felt called to. I know businessmen who gave up prominent, lucrative jobs to serve God in full-time ministry, make much less money and taking huge risks with their livelihoods.

I’ve known people do some of the most amazing, sacrificial, loving, truly Christ-like things imaginable — things I can’t imagine myself doing — because they felt led by God to do it. And some of these people were led kicking and screaming — not wanting to be so self-giving.

I have a lot of trouble declaring people who give up so much for Jesus frauds. I mean, I wouldn’t do what they do unless God made me do it. And if they tell me they felt compelled by God, well, that makes a whole lot of sense.

So does God lead people to do particular good things by an impulse beyond the pages of the Bible? And if so, how do we distinguish leadings that are genuine from fake leadings?

And does the Bible give any authority for your conclusion? Have you ever experience such a leading yourself — and how did you conclude it was really from God?

 

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35 Responses to Thought Question: “God Made Me Do It”

  1. Price says:

    John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." Unless one believes that Jesus only provided the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, then the Holy Spirit and His leading is available to all believers for all time until Jesus comes again. Jesus said He would be with us "forever."

    Back around Thanksgiving I was "hounded" by God to take an old snow suit that I noticed to a homeless shelter. I didn't really want to do it. It was a good snowsuit. Hardly worn. But, after about 36 hours of total "unrest" about it., I took it to the mission. The next day a group of students from my old high school went down to help during their Thanksgiving break. A homeless man they were ministering to who lived under a bridge by the way…asked if the students could help him out by giving him a snow suit. He was trying to get home to family in Pennsylvania and it was colder up there than in Atlanta. The students just had sandwiches and water so they asked the mission leader about it…Imagine his surprise…Imagine mine… God answered this man's prayer before he asked by bugging me to death about a stinkin snow suit… Yeah, God is alive and well and doing God stuff all the time…Go Big Daddy !!

  2. Price says:

    I guess we really should be about the church of "What's Happening Now." :)

  3. David Himes says:

    My favorite definition of agape is giving yourself to others, for their good, expecting nothing in return.

    When that's what I'm doing, I'm confident it's what God wants me to be doing.

    In all other circumstances, I challenge myself to ask if I can be God's person under those particular circumstances. I may not always reach the correct decision, but those are the standards to which I aspire

  4. guy says:

    (1) i don't find anything similar or analogous to this phenomenon in Scripture. Seems like in the NT, God quite audibly or visibly interacted with individuals He had selected for certain purposes. What i don't see in scripture is people having general feelings or tugs or nudges or vague inclinations about what God wants them to do and then saying "Well, that must be the HS telling me to do it."

    (Also, in the NT, God's callings and commissions and interactions are arguably against the feelings of the selected individuals, unlike this modern phenomenon.)

    (2) When people around me make such a claim: "i just feel God wants me to do this." "i feel called to do this." "i can feel the HS nudging me to do this." etc. –when people make such claims, they put their hearers in a very, very precarious positions. i, as a hearer, can decide either
    (a) They're correct. God's behind their inclination. In this case, i'm forced to just accept whatever they're saying or deciding, no?
    (b) They're lying. If i don't believe they're right, then this is one option i have for explaining why they're not right. They're a liar.
    (c) They're mistaken/deceived. If i don't believe they're right, i maybe could conclude they're just deluded or self-deluded.
    (d) Suspend judgment–i just don't know either way whether they're telling the truth or not.

    If i go with (a), i end up needing to believe and accept whatever comes out of their mouth no matter how crazy it turns out to be. If i go with (b), (c), or (d), that already puts me in a very discordant position with those people. i'm either calling them a liar, a lunatic, or at least just doubting them. The relationship is strained to say the very least.

    (3) When tying revelation/leading from God so closely with my emotional states or my inclinations, isn't the door wide, wide open for self-deception? Am i really so utterly self-transparent that i can always tell the difference between a divinely-caused bad feeling about something versus a bad feeling caused by putting too many jalapenos on my burrito the day before? i'm not trying to make light of this, i am being serious. Do i have years of experience with myself? Sure. But i have to be realistic: Some people go to counseling for years just trying to figure out things *about themselves.* Why they do what they do, what events are the catalysts for their beliefs and behaviors, and what it is they even really believe or think or feel at the end of the day. Food, weather, lack of rest, chemical imbalances–so many things can effect me in ways that i may not be able to measure. And yet, i'm going to claim unabashedly that i can flawlessly discern that *this* inclination or *this* emotion undoubtedly came straight from God? That just already sounds pretty haughty to me.

    –guy

    Just to throw in my own anecdote, when i was a minister in Phoenix, there was a young couple that had some problems, and then they had a miscarriage. The young man declared that he knew in his heart that the miscarriage was God's sign that he should divorce his wife.

  5. aBasnar says:

    So does God lead people to do particular good things by an impulse beyond the pages of the Bible? And if so, how do we distinguish leadings that are genuine from fake leadings?

    I think we see this in the books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. But I would not say "beyond" the pages of the Bible, but "in line with" the pages of the Bible.

    Now, if that was the case in the 4000 years of men's history – not as a daily occurence to be sure, and not that it happened to everyone – then why should this have ceased to happen with the death of hte last Apostle? I mean, look at this prophecy:

    Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
    Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

    That's one of the signs of the New Covenant. True prophecy may prompt us to do thins "inline with" the scripture (not beyond), but what is not spelled out in detail in God's Word. If we declare that this has ceased to exist, because the New Testament has been completed, I'd add that the NT was completed, but not compiled until a few generations later. What we have as the canon of the NT is the result of at least 200 years of spiritual discernment.

    Do we believe, that the canon is a reult of the Spirit's guidance? Then He obviously worked outside (in line but not beyond) scripture.

    Alexander

  6. Alabama John says:

    When we think about those that sacrifice for our welfare, lets not forget our Veterans tomorrow.

    Average age 18 and so many from Christian homes.

    What a prayer service they always had before going into combat trying to save our way of life and our freedom to worship as we do.

    If it wasn't for those young men, there wouldn't be a site like this one.

    Lead by God and died in His good graces?

    I certainly believe so!

  7. ALP says:

    At one time I thought (and had been taught) that the Holy Spirit's work in individuals stopped in the first century. Since 1990 I have had two instances (at least 2) which are too long to relate, but both involved a major, unintended long distance moves. In both cases, soon after the move my wife and I had family members in the vicinity who needed our presence for support and care. In one case it was my wife's mother and father in another our daughter was diagnosed with cancer. In each case we were the only family available to help out.
    I am completely convinced that we would never have made those moves without God's intervention. I have said that sometimes God gives us a good swift kick in the behind to get us going in the direction He wants. Then again isn't that what Jesus said to Paul ("why do you kick against the goads?")?
    I now realize that God was working in my life all along I was just too dense to realize what was happening. I also think now that God sometimes acts in our lives as the result of someone else's prayers, not necessarily our own.
    In the past the Church of Christ has been so worried about being associated in any way with other denominations that we denied the obvious.

  8. Todd Collier says:

    And beyond impulses and nudges, what about dreams and visions? How about standing on a particular spot and praising God because it was the spot from the dream? I was raised to deny such things. I am a full time servant because of those things. (and fasting, prayer, and fleeces.) How about being able to stand and endure what you must because He has already told you the next place will be better? These things are in scripture, they have also happened in my life. Admittedly not every tuesday night at six but enough to take comfort from them.
    And if they are in the Bible, and folks like me claim to have experienced them, why do otherwise Bible believing people continue to exclude such from the realm of possibility? Am I a liar, a lunatic or a victim of my own delusions? If of my own delusions, why did God send me to a place I decidedly did not want to go – twice – because the methods I recognized from Scripture told me to go there? And I am one of those silly people who have taken the pay cut to serve because of such callings and burdens.

  9. laymond says:

    "God made me do it." Then I suppose God gave "free will" to some, part of the time. :)

  10. guy says:

    Alexander,

    Either i'm understanding Jay's question too narrowly, or you too broadly or both.

    What would you think if someone you knew said "i just feel like God is calling me to marry this person/take this job/etc."?

    –guy

  11. guy says:

    Todd,

    Could a person decide to do something or go somewhere for their own purposes and yet all the while God meant for history to turn out that way? In other words, is it possible for God to lead someone or work in someone's life without any awareness on their part that such is the case?

    –guy

  12. Todd Collier says:

    I think that is also Biblical. God hardened Pharoah's heart and put a hook in Nebuchadnezzar's jaw. If we look at Scripture as a whole we see that God uses free will and He sometimes denies free will. He calls one to submitted obedience, forces another and simply removes barriers to a third. In the end the only thing that seems to be certain is that all will answer for their own conscience and moral choices. Nebuchadnezzar was an evil man, God used him, crushed him and then apparently redeemed him because he had the capacity to see someone greater than himself at work.

    Perhaps our problem is an attempt to reduce God's workings to something that makes sense to us. instead maybe we should just accept these differing stories at face value and give God the glory for being beyond our ability to comprehend.

  13. Todd Collier says:

    And what changes if that is indeed the truth?

  14. Jerry Starling says:

    I blogged on this (sorta) a couple of years ago. You can read my thoughts at http://committedtotruth.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/…. My basic idea was that if Satan can tempt us to do evil, why can't God tempt us to do good? Note that temptation is not compulsion. Satan cannot compel us to do evil – nor does God compel us to do good. But can (and does) God tempt us to do good – through the "nudging" of His Spirit?

    I think He probably does.

    Jerry

  15. Todd Collier says:

    I do think though that at times God has, and may yet, compel men to fulfill His will. I just don't think it has anything to do with their standing with Him.

  16. Terry says:

    I'm open to the Spirit leading me. I'm comfortable in following his instructions when I see them in the Scriptures. I'm comfortable telling people that I'm following the Holy Spirit when I'm applying principles from the Bible to my specific circumstances.

    However, I don't want to put words in his mouth by saying something like, "The Holy Spirit told me to___________" when I'm not sure. I could be misrepresenting him. I would not want to slander him by blaming him for something he did not say.

  17. guy says:

    Price,

    You wrote:
    "Guy, why must you judge another's leading ?? Why wouldn't you just encourage that person to prayerfully test the spirits to see and trust in the Lord? If you don't believe that God is working in the lives of people today then just tell the person they are nuts and move on. "

    When the person is in a position of ministry or leadership, it matters, doesn't it? The original article i shared elsewhere about this from internetmonk cited the example of a woman who was the choir director who consistently said "God is telling me to use this song." The fact that she's in a position to act on such sentiments puts others in the church and in leadership in a position where they're gonna have to decide what they think about her claims.

    Why can't i move on? What if they're a member of my church family? i still have to interact with them and hopefully continue a relationship of co-serving with them.

    And again, not judging would be suspending judgment, in which case i refuse to extend to them implicit trust. That could be taken as an offense. And thus the relationship is strained.

    And most importantly, what is at issue not *whether* God works presently. i do believe God is presently at work in the world, in my life, in yours, all over the place. i don't even believe there's such thing as chance or coincidence in any metaphysically robust sense. Nevertheless, i doubt that God operates through vague inclinations or emotions, or if He did, that i would necessarily be able to tell every time whether that's precisely what was occurring.

    –guy

  18. Price says:

    Terry…interesting post…The Bereans "searched the scripture" to see if what they were being told was true…They placed priority on the holy scriptures. I like that. However, with Peter's vision, what he was being told to do by God was violate the scriptures to which Peter responded adamantly that there was no way…But, God was doing a new thing…a thing which Peter later recalled on the day of Pentecost was prophesied by the prophet Joel..So, yes scripture again ruled the day but apparently Peter didn't have the understanding and God had to get him to do something that he didn't understand but did it anyway because of God's interaction with him… How far from the will of God would Peter have been had he refused to do anything until he was able to understand all the facts and check it out in scripture first, if he was even capable of doing so?

    I'm stunned that more of you haven't given personal testimonies of God moving you to do or not do something… Because I know it's been going on…

  19. Price says:

    Guy…not trying to judge you…I was just curious as to what purpose it served by questioning a person's leading when they indicate that they believe it was from God.. I thought if there was any observational advantage is was from the "fruit" of the work…,not the motivation. And, like I described from the account of Peter and Cornelius…it was a dream…he fell asleep. or went into a trance which I probably couldn't define an exact difference…and the message was vague at best…Peter had to figure it out from the events that followed. A nudge, a vision, a dream, a passing thought out of the blue….who's to say? I allow a great deal of flexibility as long as somebody doesn't require something of me with some kind of "thus sayeth the Lord" …

  20. Terry says:

    I believe that God led me to become involved in urban ministry, to adopt our son, and to do many other things in my life. But I can't tell you that the Spirit specifically said anything to me. I would let you know if he did, but it's just not a part of my testimony. He has motivated me in non-verbal ways to follow his leading, and I believe his leading in these areas has been consistent with what he has revealed in the Scriptures.

  21. guy says:

    Price,

    No sweat–i didn't take it as judgmental at all.

    i see what you mean by Peter's vision being "vague" in the sense of enigmatic or inexact. But that's not really what i was after by "vague." i meant vague as in the nature of the experience itself is vague, not the content. So Peter clearly saw images, and knew precisely what the images were and could describe the sequence. i'm not really even talking about that kind of thing. Those kinds of experiences obvious do resemble the kinds of experiences we read about in scripture.

    (But consider that a lot was riding on whether other people considered Peter's vision legitimate. The Jewish Christians all had to judge for themselves the validity of his experience and testimony.)

    i'm talking about where people almost make it a habit of speech to just take a gut feeling or slight inclination or a certain desire and just assume God is the cause of it. Do you really feel that confident you know the exact causal history of every little inclination or feeling you experience? i'm sure not–not even close.

    –guy

  22. guy says:

    Todd,

    If you accept them all at face value, then you'd believe everyone on TBN and Benny Hinn and everything Pat Robertson says, wouldn't you? Or maybe you meant something more narrow and i misunderstood.

    All i was getting at is something like this. Can a person claim to have a nudge or feeling from God and yet be mistaken? –i.e., God is not the causal source of that nudge or feeling in any special sense? i take it no one's going to deny that. So consider these three propositions:

    (a) God is exercising some special intervention in my life.
    (b) i have a "nudgy" feeling i claim is from God, but i'm mistaken.
    (c) i have a "nudgy" feeling i claim is from God, and i'm correct.

    How can i know for certain whether i'm in an (a)(b) situation vs. an (a)(c) situation?

    –guy

  23. aBasnar says:

    Do we pray for guidance in these areas of life?
    If so, do we expect an answer?

    Alexander

  24. guy says:

    That's still not what i'm talking about. This isn't a matter of whether God works or whether God answers prayer. God can do both without me ever having a feeling about it or an inclination. Or more to the point, God could give me a feeling or an inclination without my being aware that God is the causal source of the inclination or feeling.

    But i'm writing in a condition of insomnia. Let me try again tomorrow when i'm clearer.

    –guy

  25. Price says:

    Guy…I do NOT believe that everything that a person "feels" like he/she should do is from God… I believe we OFTEN give God too much credit and the Devil too much blame. I guess I was just thinking about those times in my life and the lives of others that I know when God really did stir one to the point that there was almost no rest or peace until the decision was made to do this or that….It's difficult to judge in advance of the "fruit" whether one is or is not being lead…However, sometimes there is a temporary "valley" in the process that might cause one to think they had made a mistake… Imagine Joseph sitting in prison for 12 years wondering whether his dreams were real or a partially digested piece of spoiled lamb chop. Imagine David's life AFTER the anointing but before coronation as King, hiding from Saul in caves….Who knows or could know in advance if it is indeed the HS nudging you in the right direction…My experience is that a nudge is used for something small and an encounter, revelation, etc., predicts a difficult challenge or uncertain period of time that the encounter or revelation will be a benchmark of certainty for…in advance… but that's just my experience.

    Back to Peter…We know what we know from reading the whole story. Peter didn't know what we know.. Was this his first "trance" ?? What's different about that and falling asleep on the couch during the game? Does your dream have significance..How did Peter know his did? Did he know? Seems that he didn't !! It seems rather obvious from what we can read in the story that Peter was fitting the pieces together as he went… using one experience to support the other and when chance and happenstance wouldn't suffice, then it was obviously God speaking to him through the Spirit…. Again, my experience is similar in that regard on a few things… My point is that God could have been very direct and yet He chose to approach Peter in a manner that left Peter with a great deal of uncertainty until the events of the day revealed God's intention….Peter was forced to "figure it out." As important as it was that Peter get the Cornelius thing right ,as you rightly suggested the importance of the occasion…one can only wonder why God chose a less direct approach…Might we be given that same opportunity and challenge??

    The challenging part is knowing that there are deceptive spirits that would attempt to influence us in a negative way…Perhaps the "figuring it out" is a way in which God allows us to use our mind, will and emotions to find Him or not find Him in the circumstances ?? According to Paul, we are under spiritual attack. He took it very seriously..I'm not sure we do. In fact, I'm pretty sure most do not.

  26. laymond says:

    John 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    If there is something "gnawing" at you, it is not the "holy ghost" , it is a CONSCIENCE something man has that no other animal does. A built-in guide.

  27. laymond says:

    As Paul once said, Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

    I must say, [Ye] men of Jay's blog, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

  28. guy says:

    Price,

    You wrote:
    "I guess I was just thinking about those times in my life and the lives of others that I know when God really did stir one to the point that there was almost no rest or peace until the decision was made to do this or that"

    How do you know God was the source of the stirring or unrest?

    You wrote:
    "Does your dream have significance..How did Peter know his did? Did he know? Seems that he didn't !!"

    This is already a significant difference from the phenomenon i'm talking about. i'm talking about people who speak as if they instantly know the slightest inclination they experience regarding a topic important to them has its significance sourced by God in some special way. "I feel this urge, so that *must* be the HS telling me…" Um no…it's not the case that it *must* be anything.

    The other significant difference is that with Peter, we're still talking about a vision with specific, measurable content. i'm not talking about such experiences (though i guess TBN and the like is full of claims about stuff like that). i'm talking about people making big claims about how their smallest inclinations or emotions that do *not* have specific, measurable content must be from God/the HS.

    So notice in Peter's story, Peter doesn't say, "ya know guys, i just have this strange feeling. Therefore the HS must be trying to tell me something." "Guys, i just feel in my heart that Gentiles are okay, so that must be a God-thing." "Fellow apostles, i just feel like God is leading me to think that Gentiles aren't so bad." i don't find any such language in the Bible at all. Yet i haven't been able to be around contemporary religious people for longer than a month without hearing this kind of stuff.

    You wrote:
    "the importance of the occasion"

    Exactly. This was a pivotal point in God's redemptive history. This wasn't about what Peter decided to have for lunch, whether he wanted to take up some side business, etc. i'm serious–i've met people who believed every time they found an awesome parking space in a bad storm, that meant the HS was especially intervening for them.

    Look, i'm not at all claiming that God *can't* give me an inclination or an emotion and mean for that to effect my decision in some way. Of course, God could do that.

    My point is twofold:
    (1) i don't see how i could ever know for certain that God *did* do so; or if He did decide to, why should i think it would even occur to me that He did?
    (2) i don't see how it does me or anyone any good to speculate or conjecture that God did instill such an inclination or emotion in me. At the end of the day, my job is the same: love God, love neighbor, fear God, keep His commands, etc. At the end of the day, whether a feeling came from God or not, i still just need to read my Bible and do what it says.

    In fact, i can see how it can do harm. Aside from the relationship strains i mention earlier, i think it's the mainstreaming of this kind of talk that has led to the view that God has some individualized, tailor-made 'plan' for everyone in accord with their own interests. And so people break off engagements to perfectly good marriage partners, quit perfectly good jobs, or hesitate to take hold of perfectly good opportunities all because they didn't get some magical feeling in their gut after they prayed (is this really any different than Mormonism's "burning in the bosom"?). i don't think God has "plans" for people in this sense. Sure He had a specific plan for Hosea to marry a prostitute. But notice, Hosea was *not* batting around the decision himself and praying and waiting for God to give him a sign about who he should marry. This was entirely God's initiative and because it served *God's* redemptive-historical purposes. i see in scripture that God had some specific plans for some people some of the time for *His* own purposes and thus intervened in special ways. But nothing akin to the contemporary notion i'm describing.

    –guy

  29. guy says:

    Price,

    i don't know what Laymond's position is, so i'm not at all trying to speak for him, just interjecting something (not meaning to interrupt).

    Isn't there a significant difference between being helped the Almighty and knowing the particular instances and methods in and through which the Almighty is helping?

    And also, consider two claims:
    "Why did i have to hit a traffic jam and be late? It must be because that black cat cross my path on the way out of my house."
    "Wow–how was i able to get to work on time and nobody else was? It must be because the HS cleared out a path especially for me."

    Aren't they strikingly similar in character and assessment of forces of fortune?

    –guy

  30. Todd Collier says:

    Guy,
    How did we jump from God being able to work without an individual being aware that He is working through them to my being willing to accept all claims that anyone makes to being God led at face value?

    I think you have taken several turns in the conversation without my necessarily being involved.

    That I accept God working through and in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar without their being aware of it is a far cry from any admission on my part that all people who claim to experience God working in them are actually experiencing such.

  31. guy says:

    Todd,

    Wasn't meaning to jump at all. i was responding to your sentence: "instead maybe we should just accept these differing stories at face value and give God the glory for being beyond our ability to comprehend."

    Did you mean differing stories like people saying that this or that feeling or inclination is from God? That's what i thought you meant.

    –guy

  32. Todd Collier says:

    Actually that sentence was focused on how the Scriptures present the issue of "free will". The Bible stories present God dealing with this in multiple ways. See the large paragraph that precedes that sentence for reference. Speaking of Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar as free moral agents caught in the will of God, not Mr. Hinn.

  33. guy says:

    Whoops–my bad. Sorry about that.

    i tend to agree with you about the free will stuff.

    –guy

  34. Adam says:

    In my experience the people who use the "God told me to" statements tend to use them for self-protection and as a way to escape critique.

    This is not to deny that God "nudges" us towards certain things. Just that by continually saying so creates walls and separation between the body. I have heard a mother say God is telling her to stop spending time with her kids. I have heard a woman say God is telling her to withdraw from her friends.

    We can judge what God leads people to do by looking at the very nature of God as seen in Jesus and the Bible – ie sacrificial and relational. If ever God calls us to something that goes against the nature of God, I think it is safe to assume that it isn't from God.

    Hence when Benny Hin claims that God told him to by a 777 airliner so he could fly around the world spreading the gospel in comfort and style, it wasn't from God.

  35. Todd Collier says:

    In rereading the totality of our exchanges I note a consistent pattern:
    A. The Scriptures say God works in various ways through various people to accomplish various ends with or without the people's knowing involvement.
    B. None have expressly denied that the Bible illustrates what is commonly considered the "leading of the Spirit" but several have doubts as to methods and practical considerations.
    C. The most consistent objections are in the realm of abuses – known and suspected with a sideline of the issue being possibly divisive (which is a kind of irrelevant argument if indeed this is exactly how God chooses to work in His Church.)
    D. Several have posted testimony of personal experiences which do not rise to the level of abuse and no poster has provided Biblical proof why our testimony is invalid.

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