Born of Water

A book length series of essays–in 15 chapters with discussion questions–on whether baptism is essential. First essays in favor of its being essential, and then essays on against its being essential. And then I offer what I think is the answer. Born of Water 050116.

72 Responses to Born of Water

  1. Jay,
    I certainly haven't reviewed all of this material, I'm working my way thru it. And ultimately, I'm going to leave the decision about immersion to God.

    But here is an interesting analogy — which may or may not be completely applicable.

    When Gerald R Ford granted a pardon to Richard M Nixon, the pardon did not take effect until Richard M Nixon signed the pardon. So, without Nixon's signature, the pardon had no effect. Was Nixon's act of signing the pardon, an act which warranted the pardon? No, of course not. But the signature was necessary to indicate Nixon's acceptance of the conditions of the pardon.

    I think there is an interesting parallel between Nixon signing the pardon, and immersion.

    I will always teach immersion, because Jesus did. And ultimately, there is no real reason to object to immersion. But nor do I feel compelled to condemn people. It's a great relief to let God be the judge of such matters.

  2. Jay Guin says:

    David,

    I think a better analogy would be to ask whether Nixon would have been pardoned had he misspelled his name when he signed the form or if he’d accidentally signed the wrong blank.

    As the signature requirement comes from the requirement that the person being pardoned must accept the pardon, unquestionably the courts would overlook such an error, as his intent would be obvious despite the mistake.

    Just so, an error in baptism where the intent to accept God’s grace and to yield to Jesus’ Lordship is evident hardly voids the baptism. God judges the heart.

    Baptism is not a test; it’s a gift that God wants us to have.

    Jay

  3. Allen Stout says:

    We do know that whatever God decides on judgement day will be right and holy. How can you say that a man, if he is mistaken in the necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of sins and decides by ignorance that the blood of Jesus will save him anyway, how will he be saved without coming into contact with the blood? If that is the case, then man doesn't need the blood at all. All spiritual blessings are in Christ.
    We are baptised into Christ. Salvation is a spiritual blessing.
    al

  4. Jay Guin says:

    Allen,

    In all seriousness, have you read Born of Water? It answers your questions in detail.

  5. Summer says:

    I know this is not totally on the subject, but are you sure that it's a minority of CoCers that believe what you quoted on the first page? That is, that a church must have the correct "marks" in order for its members to be saved? In my experience, I have found it's probably at least half. Of course, I've always lived in a pretty conservative area. Just seems kind of an optimistic estimate to me.
    I also noticed your quote: Some will note that I’ve skipped Mark 16:16: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” As just about every translation made after the King James Version notes, this verse does not appear in the oldest manuscripts of Mark, and so it was evidently added by a scribe some time after Mark wrote it."
    I have never heard this before. What does this mean, exactly, about the legitimacy of the verse?

  6. Jay Guin says:

    Hi, Summer.

    Most in the CoC believe in the "marks" teaching, or at least most congregations are led by preachers who believe this. But what I said is a minority position is that the congregation "must have the correct position on all key doctrines for its members to be saved." The idea that we have to get everything right is growing but still a minority viewpoint.

    Regarding Mark 16:16, the Wikipedia has a good article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

    A great introduction to textual criticism is Neil R. Lightfoot's How We Got the Bible. http://www.amazon.com/How-Got-Bible-Neil-Lightfoo

    There is very serious doubt regarding whether this verse was in the manuscript Mark wrote because the oldest manuscripts we have omit it. There are arguments both ways, but it seems likely that the verses were added by a scribe later. The verses on snake handling and drinking poison fit in the same category, so I'm quite okay with the conclusion!

  7. Vicki says:

    Hi Jay,
    I’ve only read the first few pages of your book so far. But your response to David P Himes (on Nixon’s pardon) sums it up for me.
    Thanks,
    Vicki

  8. josh keele says:

    I have a lot to say, but I will refrain because I don’t think the page can hold it all. Besides, you already know my view on baptism from the little debate between Mark and myself. But I do want to respond to the argument you set forth that a certain minister was asked “Would you be disappointed if, when you get to heaven, you find the Baptists there?” and that he answered “Absolutely, I’d be disappointed! It would mean that God had broken his promises!” This answer you censure, saying that “Job teaches us that we have no business judging God, especially for his extraordinary generosity.”

    Now, I would ask a similar question, or series of questions:

    What if I got to heaven and the very Catholics who had sent my brothers and sisters in Christ in the first few centuries of our era into the coliseum to be eaten by lions were there in heaven? And I don’t mean that they were there in heaven because they had been remorseful and converted in bitter tears and sackcloth and ashes and all that, but because God (as you so eloquently put it) had chosen to show them “extraordinary generosity.” What would I think? and what would it imply about God?

    Or again, what if I found the Beast and the False Prophet in heaven? By your argument, I couldn’t judge God. Even though Revelation 14:11 promises that they go to hell “and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever” and then verse 12 referring to this, that is referring to the expectation that the Beast and False Prophet go to hell, says “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” The patience of the saints is that we expect the Beast and False Prophet to go to hell? Apparently that is part of it. Why? Because we expect God to keep his promises. We don’t expect that when we get to heaven we will find Satan there sitting on God’s throne or that God will allow him to jab us with his pitchfork! Nor do we expect to find that everyone has made it to heaven. Not after all that business about “strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it.” Not after Paul was thrice beaten with rods, once was stoned, thrice suffered shipwreck, and a night and a day was in the deep! After Isaiah was sawn asunder and John was thrown off the temple to splatter in the street just because he was a Christian.

    In other words, if God’s plan is to put us through things like this, just to at the end say “Surprise! I decided to save everyone! Aren’t I so great?” then doesn’t that strike you as a tad sadistic? Can the foolishness about judging God or putting God in a box. When we expect the Almighty who saith of himself that he cannot lie, to abide by his own word, we are neither judging him nor putting him in a box, but rather are having FAITH in him. And isn’t faith of great important to you, Jay?

    Why, in other words, would God instruct us to “contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” if people who spit on that faith and defecate on the Bible are going to be in heaven? Or if those who trample the Son of God under foot their whole lives make it to heaven, why is it a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God? How can God say, as in Malachi, “I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen” if he allows all the heathen into heaven in their heathenism? And why, if the words of Hymenaeus and Philetus eat as a canker, do they make it to heaven?

    I dare assert that the All-Wise and Almighty God has a weakness, but only because Paul himself has first asserted it int he Scriptures, when he says in 1 Corinthians 1:25 that “the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” What is God’s foolishness and what his weakness? Both are simply that he is Perfect in Honesty and cannot lie. God will not contradict the Scriptures. As Jesus interjects in John 10:35 “the scripture cannot be broken.”

    Now I will close my brief comment on this matter with this. Jesus says “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” He says not “Sanctify them with wishful fancies and old wives tales.” We can’t stake our eternal souls on the wishes and wouldn’t-it-be-nices of dreamers, but only on the word of God.

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  11. Hal says:

    Josh,
    Are you making implications in your arguments that the Catholics who murdered Christians, The Beast, and The False Prophet…all had Faith in Jesus which would put them in like standing to those in the Baptist Church (or other chruches) who live in Faith, but have not been baptised or were baptised differently than most in the Chruch of Christ?

  12. David says:

    That was a very good writing on baptism. I think it hit the mark. I agree that the appointed and normal way to salvation is through baptism, but that there are exceptions. Exceptions tend to tie us in knots when we think we have it all down and God is not allowed to do things any other way. I learned a lot about exceptions when studying John 5:13-17 and James 5:13-16. It seems that God sometimes forgives our sins on the basis of someone elses faith rather than our own. The prayers of righteous men for someone elses forgiveness is effective. When I first came to that realization my thoughts were "God can't do that". But yes He can. We must bow before God, not our "correct" doctrine.

  13. Gary Cummings says:

    I do not think that this is a good analogy at all.
    Faith precedes baptism, and we are baptized because we have been saved not the other way around. An analogy would be that of marriage. A young man or woman may say: " I am getting married for love." In the COC mode the man was getting married to receive/give love. In reality, the man or woman (ideally) is getting married because they are already in love.

    The way I understand Acts 2:38, is that we are baptized into Christ because we have repented and our sins have already been forgiven and we have been saved.

    Now I do believe that immersion is the more correct way, but a dying person who requested water baptism after a profession of faith in Christ would be saved without immersion by sprinking or a small pouring of water from a cup. Even then, if I turned my back to get the water, and the person died suddenly before I could pour water on their head: they are still saved. It is faith that saves from first to last, and not any human act. The Baptists are right about this one.
    Gary

    Gary

  14. Gary Cummings says:

    We contact the blood on our heart by faith in Jesus Christ.
    The blood is not in the water.

    Gary

  15. Gary Cummings says:

    The long ending of Mark 16 is spurious and was concocted by some scribe to fill in a blank or to provide the lost ending. Maybe it ended like it should in verse 8. There are at two other endings better than the long ending in the KJV. The traditional long ending means we all have to speak in tongues, drink poison, pick up serpents, and that Jesus came back in another form.

    Forget Mark 16:16, it teaches nothing. Acts 2:38 teaches that we are baptised for our sins have been forgiven, nothing more.

    Gary

  16. Gary Cummings says:

    All judgement belongs to God. Sin and evil will be pardoned only by faith and repentance through the shed blood of Jesus. Not all Catholics participated in the Inquisition. Those who did not and had true saving faith in Jesus, I expect to see in heaven. The same goes for other Christians in similar institutions which committed horrible atrocities? Many German in WW2 were Christians and had nothing to do with the holocaust. Will they be in hell because their church supported Anti-semitism or did not work against the Holocaust? Likewise, the Churches of Christ were basically white racist churches from 1898 to 2002. Were all members damned because their churches supported the Jim Crow laws of the South, belonged to the Klan, or supported Segregation? Very interesting, when the question is turned around.

  17. Anonymous says:

    Exactly Gary,

    Acts 2:38 Repentance brought forgiveness of sins and then they were baptized.

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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  25. Patricia Harrod-Wyrosdick says:

    Gary,

    Act 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    Do you see how the scripture is worded..”Repent and be baptized”. Repentance is connected by “and” showing that something else is in addition to the repentance. You can clearly see that AFTER “Repent and be baptized”…the “remission of sins” follows. It does not come before baptism and it does not come before repentance.
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (I Peter 3:20-21).
    Peter stated in the plainest of terms that “baptism doth also now save us”; although, many today will flatly contradict the apostle by saying that baptism does not save us! In other words, Peter is saying that the salvation of Noah by water foreshadowed or prefigured our salvation through baptism; Noah was saved by water and in a true likeness, or corresponding to that figure, baptism also saves us. When we are baptized “into Christ” (Galatians 3:27), we become new creatures in Christ. “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16).

    Patricia

  26. Patricia Harrod-Wyro says:

    Gary,

    Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    Do you see how the scripture is worded.."Repent and be baptized". Repentance is connected by "and" showing that something else is in addition to the repentance. You can clearly see that AFTER "Repent and be baptized"…the "remission of sins" follows. It does not come before baptism and it does not come before repentance.
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (I Peter 3:20-21).
    Peter stated in the plainest of terms that "baptism doth also now save us"; although, many today will flatly contradict the apostle by saying that baptism does not save us! In other words, Peter is saying that the salvation of Noah by water foreshadowed or prefigured our salvation through baptism; Noah was saved by water and in a true likeness, or corresponding to that figure, baptism also saves us. When we are baptized "into Christ" (Galatians 3:27), we become new creatures in Christ. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

    Patricia

  27. Patricia Harrod-Wyro says:

    Hello Gary,
    You said, "Likewise, the Churches of Christ were basically white racist churches from 1898 to 2002. Were all members damned because their churches supported the Jim Crow laws of the South, belonged to the Klan, or supported Segregation? Very interesting, when the question is turned around."

    Would you please tell me where I can find the proof for the comments that you made above. I have been a member of the church for 46 years and I know nothing of the things you mentioned and attributed to the church.
    Thanks,
    Patricia

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  29. Kmmerci2 says:

    Yes. And I didn't see, even though I admit I riffled through quite a bit because I was familiar already with many of the arguments and wanted to see what our brother concluded, where he referenced 1 Peter 3:21 which reads that "There is an antitype which now saved us, baptism (not the removal of filth from the flesh but an answer to a clear conscience toward God)…" And Romans 6:3 and Gal. 3:26 and Acts 20:16. Not to mention John 3:3-5. Clearly we cannot be cavalier about this but make our call and election sure. -Karen M

  30. Kmmerci2 says:

    This is my question as well. This passage does jibe with many others just the same. The KJV translators were under the gun if you will by King James to transelate every word accordingly or else face execution! – Karen M

  31. Kmmerci2 says:

    Paul got bit by a snake and did not die. Acts 28:3-5

  32. Kmmerci2 says:

    Ephesians 4:1-6, "I, Therefore the prisoner ot the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffereing, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." And the Lord's scripture here says it all. -Karen M

  33. Kmmerci2 says:

    Mr. Gary, considering all your replies, how do you explain 1 Peter 3:21? It clearly states that baptism now saves us by giving us a clear conscience toward God. We are buried with him in baptism (Romans 6:3; Gal.3:26-27) The Galatians scripture I just mentioned ties the faith factor in with the baptism factor. They work together. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17. The ethiopian eunich was baptized after Philip shared the gospel with him after explaining what Isaiah was talking about which the eunich was reading. Acts 8:29-39. Acts 19:3-5 gives a display of the three baptisms available at that time (1st century) and shows that John's baptism was for repentance only and not effective after Christ died, was buried and raised from the dead. This is when the Christian age (New Testament) came into effect. Then there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which was given only to the Apostles and then translated to certain disciples of that time and then faded away before Paul's final imprisonment and then there is the baptism for the remission of sins which Peter preached about. Only the water immersion stands to this day and is the one which saves us as I first stated in 1 Peter. Baptism is for the repented believer and for the remission of sins. It puts us into Christ. There is not condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit (our spirit with God's Spirit). Romans 8:1. We all need to read our bibles more don't we? -Karen M

  34. Kmmerci2 says:

    Dear sister Patricia, I fully agree. Well quoted! Amen.

  35. Kmmerci2 says:

    Scripture clearly states in several places that we are not to add, take away or preach anything other than what the Lord has spoken in the pages of our Holy Bible. Careful study, prayer and a willingness to know and accept the Lord's truth will open that narrow gate for us. We must be willing to comply to our Lord's commands which are not burdensome as some suppose but free us from indwelling sin and our slavery to self service. Those who twist scriptures are behaving like our adversary, the devil who tempted Eve by adding one word, "NOT". You shall NOT surely die… Gen.3:4 , when the Lord had clearly said beforehand, "You shall not surely eat of this tree for in the day that you shall eat of it, you shall surely die." Gen.2:17. Satan twists words and meanings all day long. He is a liar and cannot tell the truth. When we get lax about adhering to the Lord's truth, Satan slips in and lures us away. Enter by the narrow gate for wide is the gate which leads to distruction and many go in thereby but narrow is the gate which leads to salvation and very few find it. Mt.7:13-14 and "Many are called but few are chosen." Mt.20:16

  36. Guy says:

    The “Born of Water. pdf” link on page http://oneinjesus.info/books-by-jay-guin/born-of-water/ is broken.

  37. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Guy,

    Thanks! It’s fixed now.

  38. Jay,
    Could you write something on principles for understanding scripture?

    MAKE SENSE?
    https://www.academia.edu/29569298/ELEVEN_PRINCIPLES_FOR_UNDERSTANDING_SCRIPTURE

  39. Bonneebee says:

    MARK 16:16 DOES NOT STAND ALONE
    1 Peter 3:20-21: ” 8 souls saved by water … likewise … baptism doth now save us”

  40. Bonneebee says:

    6 THINGS IN THE BIBLE DIRECTLY LINKED TO SALVATION:
    Do you get to choose any option?
    OR does “obey” = “obey all?”
    ● HEAR the gospel – Romans 10:17*
    ● BELIEVE it ——— John 8:24, Hebrews 11:6**
    ● REPENT of sin —- 2 Corinthians 7:10
    ● CONFESS faith — Romans 10:10
    ● BE BAPTIZED —– Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16***
    ● STAY FAITHFUL – Revelation 2:10
    .
    *GOSPEL = Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John (what you must believe to be saved)
    **FAITH ALONE is dead & cannot save a man – James 2:14-26
    ***BAPTIZE IN THE BIBLE = “to make fully wet; to dip as into dye; to immerse”
    .
    BUT, IN THE BIBLE, BAPTIZE ONLY MEANS IMMERSE & DID NOT EVER MEAN “SPRINKLE” OR “POUR” UNTIL UNAUTHORIZED CHANGES:
    ● 1300’s – catholic church replaced “faith + immersion = salvation” with “sprinkling or pouring = salvation”
    AND began sprinkling infants who are unable to believe
    ● 1500’s – protestants replaced “faith + baptism = salvation” with “faith alone + nothing = salvation”
    ● 1900’s – evangelicals replaced “faith + baptism = salvation” with “faith + the sinner’s prayer = salvation”
    BUT…
    ● 33 a.d. to the 2nd coming, true christians, true followers of Jesus & the bible, have always practiced,
    “faith + immersion = salvation”
    .
    11 THINGS A BELIEVER RECEIVES WHEN HE IS BAPTIZED:
    ● salvation ———————————- Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21
    ● adoption ———————————- Galatians 3:27, 29
    ● eternal life ——————————– Romans 6:3-4, 22
    ● forgiveness —————————— Acts 2:38 & 22:16
    ● resurrection —————————— Romans 6:3-5
    ● Jesus Christ —————————– Galatians 3:27
    ● The Holy Spirit ————————– Acts 2:38
    ● born-again, newness of life ———- John 3:3,5,7; Romans 6:3-4
    ● a good conscience toward God —– 1 Peter 3:21
    ● membership in the body of Christ — 1 Corinthians 12:12
    ● circumcision not made with hands – Colossians 2:11-12

  41. Should we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or is it also biblical to baptize only in the name of Jesus Christ?

  42. BonneeBee says:

    ALLEN STOUT, SAID:
    How can you say that a man, if he is mistaken in the necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of sins and decides by ignorance that the blood of Jesus will save him anyway, how will he be saved without coming into contact with the blood? If that is the case, then man doesn’t need the blood at all. All spiritual blessings are in Christ. We are baptised into Christ. Salvation is a spiritual blessing.
    .
    REPLY TO ALLEN STOUT:
    .
    GOD PROMISES:
    those who seek Him diligently will find Him
    GOD’S WORD SAYS:
    faith comes by hearing / reading the word of God
    A DILIGENT SEEKER…
    will read the word of God
    A READER OF THE WORD OF GOD
    will read Mark 16:16 & 1 Peter 3:20-21
    A READER OF MARK & 1 PETER WILL CONCLUDE:
    faith + water baptism = salvation
    .
    AS FOR A MAN WHO CONVERTS ON HIS DEATHBED:
    the thief on the cross example gives me hope that those who decided last minute, have a chance.
    HOWEVER, THE THIEF ON THE CROSS IS NOT…
    the evangelism model of for Christians to use
    A the thief died under the authority of the old law/law of moses, which has no baptism instruction or commandment
    B Jesus commanded water baptism under authority of the new covenant, which does have water baptism instruction & commandment
    .
    ALLEN…
    To hold your position, you have had to ignore many scriptures.
    Ignoring scriptues = subtracting scriptures
    subtracting scriptures = having your name removed from the book of life – Revelation 22:19

  43. Larry Cheek says:

    Daniel,
    What an individual says or does not say while baptizing does not affect the outcome of the baptism. It is all dependent upon the heart and intentions of the one being baptized. It is between him/her and God.

  44. Yes, we are raised in baptism though our faith.

  45. Alabama John says:

    Its all ultimately between him/her and God in all circumstances since God will do the final judging..

    One way we see and state it or be lost is making us the judge and so many of us have had enough of that.

    WE all agree children everywhere throughout time will be judged innocent and be saved. Many grown w are judged being in that same state.

    Go visit a childrens hospital or mental institution and watch them die and judge as God does.

    God and Jesus have been around a long time and appeared to many in different images that they worshiped. Jesus didn’t just appear when he was born of Mary.

  46. Dwight says:

    “6 THINGS IN THE BIBLE DIRECTLY LINKED TO SALVATION:
    Do you get to choose any option?
    OR does “obey” = “obey all?”
    ● HEAR the gospel – Romans 10:17*
    ● BELIEVE it ——— John 8:24, Hebrews 11:6**
    ● REPENT of sin —- 2 Corinthians 7:10
    ● CONFESS faith — Romans 10:10
    ● BE BAPTIZED —– Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16***
    ● STAY FAITHFUL – Revelation 2:10
    .
    *GOSPEL = Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John (what you must believe to be saved)
    **FAITH ALONE is dead & cannot save a man – James 2:14-26
    ***BAPTIZE IN THE BIBLE = “to make fully wet; to dip as into dye; to immerse”
    .
    BUT, IN THE BIBLE, BAPTIZE ONLY MEANS IMMERSE & DID NOT EVER MEAN “SPRINKLE” OR “POUR” UNTIL UNAUTHORIZED CHANGES:
    ● 1300’s – catholic church replaced “faith + immersion = salvation” with “sprinkling or pouring = salvation”
    AND began sprinkling infants who are unable to believe
    ● 1500’s – protestants replaced “faith + baptism = salvation” with “faith alone + nothing = salvation”
    ● 1900’s – evangelicals replaced “faith + baptism = salvation” with “faith + the sinner’s prayer = salvation”
    BUT…
    ● 33 a.d. to the 2nd coming, true christians, true followers of Jesus & the bible, have always practiced,
    “faith + immersion = salvation””

    There is something big missing and blatantly in the above rhetoric…Jesus, the savior.
    We largely in the coC have replaced Jesus the savior with the acts of saving, which point to Jesus.
    Baptize means immersion and could mean to be surrounded by without having been dipped in as well…ex/ The Isreaelites and Noah and even Jesus burial.
    but in regards to the concept of Baptism it is very closely tied with the concept of cleansing or washing which was usually done in water. but washing could include water coming over as well.

  47. Dwight says:

    “11 THINGS A BELIEVER RECEIVES WHEN HE IS BAPTIZED:
    ● salvation ———————————- Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21
    ● adoption ———————————- Galatians 3:27, 29
    ● eternal life ——————————– Romans 6:3-4, 22
    ● forgiveness —————————— Acts 2:38 & 22:16
    ● resurrection —————————— Romans 6:3-5
    ● Jesus Christ —————————– Galatians 3:27
    ● The Holy Spirit ————————– Acts 2:38
    ● born-again, newness of life ———- John 3:3,5,7; Romans 6:3-4
    ● a good conscience toward God —– 1 Peter 3:21
    ● membership in the body of Christ — 1 Corinthians 12:12
    ● circumcision not made with hands – Colossians 2:11-12”

    One doesn’t receive Jesus when baptized, as one is baptized into Jesus. Jesus isn’t the result of baptism, but the reason for it.
    Gal.3:26-27 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
    You have faith in Jesus and then are baptized into Jesus, thus putting on the Jesus.
    Jesus is the reason for repentance, faith, baptism, and the reason we are saved at all. By going through Jesus we receive the above things.
    Oh yes baptism doesn’t give us a good conscience towards God, but is an act of a good conscience towards God.

  48. “Oh yes baptism doesn’t give us a good conscience towards God, but is an act of a good conscience towards God.” I think baptism is a pledge to keep a good conscience toward God.

  49. Dwight says:

    Bonna Bee,
    I think Alan has it correct when he says, “All spiritual blessings are in Christ. We are baptized into Christ. Salvation is a spiritual blessing.”
    One of the go to verses we go to for baptism is in I Peter 3:20-21 “while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism…”
    But we often leave out vs.18 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God.” and vs.21 “baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
    Jesus bookends the thought of baptism.
    I don’t think anyone would argue that suddenly water appeared and saved Noah. No we would argue that it was God who caused the flood and God who saved Noah, the water was just a medium for God’s purpose. When Noah got out of the Ark Noah didn’t build an altar to the water, but God. The same goes with Jesus.
    Many in the coC have a knee jerk reaction to hearing that Jesus saves as if it is pushing for faith only, but this is hardly the case as Alan did mention baptism. Part of our problems is we like to win arguments and faith saves (for the Baptist) and baptism saves (for the coC) is just an argument and both point towards the wrong points.
    The whole of salvation rest on Jesus as the point of salvation. I am the way, the Truth and the Light. I am the Door. He who calls upon the name of Jesus. Jesus the savior. Etc.
    And then once you know Jesus, then you start following and trusting and obeying Jesus in repentance, baptism, etc..

  50. JohnF says:

    Noah still had to “get into the boat.” The Israelites still had to “walk” thru the Red Sea. We still have to “submit” to baptism. No magic in the water, but that is the means “into Christ.” Some 86 times we find “in Christ” (NAS) and 3 times into Christ (2 w/ regard to baptism). Rom 3:22
    the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
    ESV

    Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
    ESV

    Gal 3:25-27 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ
    ESV

    2 Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
    ESV

    When Paul discusses “through faith” he at once links baptism. So our “putting on Christ” is akin to Noah getting into the boat, and the Israelites walking through the Sea (and the desert). It is still God’s boat and God’s sea and God’s waters of baptism.

    If you want your own boat, your own sea, or your own waters of baptism — take it up with God.

  51. Dwight says:

    What I find depressing is the taking of sides on one point versus another point, namely faith versus baptism as the saving point, when the scriptures always point to Christ as the saving point, even when faith and baptism are separately mentioned Christ is there as the savior.

    This boat analogy almost comes up deficient in some ways. Yes Noah did get into the boat, but he also built the boat, so are we talking saving oneself here?
    The walk of the Jews is almost more like our walk through life, instead of or walk to Jesus or salvation. They were over all delivered by God in Egypt and promised Canaan, but the only thing that kept them from getting Canaan was not their walking, which took them to Canaan, but rather their faith or lack of it. God would have handed it to them, but they didn’t trust in God.

  52. JohnF says:

    All analogies ultimately because, well – they are analogies. Even the “getting into the boat” or “walking through the sea” or “submitting” to baptism can be useless if done for the wrong reason. While “fear” can be a motivator, fear cannot sustain motivation and violates the primal command to “love the LORD your God. . . .” While right behavior can help shape attitude (Gen 4:6-7 “Do the right thing”) if done without cognizance of Godly motive, any such actions are meaningless with regard to salvation (Rotary, Eagles, Shriners, etc.). The simple conclusion is from the viewpoint of James, it that FAITH WORKS (It NOT two oars rowing the boat of salvation, we are in a sailboat [oops, another analogy] where the Spirits blows where He wills and takes us along for the trans-formative spiritual ride of a lifetime) – if faith does not work, the evidence is inadequate, false, deficient, unreal faith . . . .

    James 2:22 faith was completed by his works (ESV);
    faith was perfected-(NASU);
    by the actions the faith was made complete (CJB);
    He proved that his faith was real by what he did (CEV);
    His faith was made perfect by what he did (Easy-to-Read Version);
    His faith was shown to be genuine by what he did (GOD’S WORD);
    that faith expresses itself in works? (THE MESSAGE);
    His actions made his faith complete. (NLT);
    faith was brought to completion by the works.(NRSV)

    So we are created FOR good works (Paul) not BECAUSE of them.

  53. “baptism now saves you also”

  54. Dwight says:

    Daniel, “baptism now saves you also”, which version is this.
    NKJ- There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism
    NRSV- And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you
    YLT- also to which an antitype doth now save us — baptism
    CJB- to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noah, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people — to be specific, eight — were delivered by means of water.
    ESV- Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,
    Every version of scriptures point to baptism, probably because others were arguing against it as being needed. I could see this being done by the gentile Christians who were rejecting Jewish practices of which baptism was one before it was used by the apostles.
    But even here in 1 Peter 3 baptism is being used to point to Jesus the savior as the reason for baptism.

  55. “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” – 1 Peter 3:21 (NIV)

  56. Dwight says:

    It appears that the NIV version is kind of a one-off version compared with the others from what I can tell, but I don’t think it is wrong in its assessment. The scriptures never point to just one thing, when we are talking things, that saves, ex. faith, repentance, etc. But even those things are directed back to Jesus the savior.

  57. Larry Cheek says:

    Daniel,
    Read that verse again. “It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” Along with these.
    Each one credits baptism with saving. Yes, some indicate a likeness, image, a form, which corresponds, a symbol, a figure and an anti-type, but all identify that an action of saving or salvation in within its application. Even the “It” in the (NIV) is identifying “baptism”. So the verse and translation that you provide says the same as all others, “baptism saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism would have no power except through Jesus Christ.
    1 Peter 3:21

    (ASV) which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

    (BBE) And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead;

    (CEV) Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

    (DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    (ERV) And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

    (ESV) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    (GNB) which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    (GW) Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.

    (ISV) Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

    (KJV) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    (LEB) And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    (LITV) Which antitype now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

    (MKJV) which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

    (RV) which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

    (YLT) also to which an antitype doth now save us–baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,

  58. Dwight says:

    This is what those in Ephesus ran up against as they were baptized and if baptism saves, then they didn’t need to be re-baptized again and yet they were…into Jesus. Baptism is vital, but it’s vitality is dependent upon Jesus.

  59. Do we come to baptism already having a clear conscience? Or is baptism our pledge to keep a clear conscience, to give up sin as Paul says in Romans 6?

  60. Those in Ephesus in Acts 19, were baptized because they wanted the Holy Spirit associated with baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

  61. Dwight says:

    True, but they wouldn’t have gotten the HS as promised in Acts 2 if not baptized into Jesus.
    It must be noted that after they were baptized, then Paul laid his hands on them and then the received the HS.
    Acts 19 ““Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?””
    “Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.”
    So a couple of things happened
    1. they had to have faith in Jesus, not John
    2..they received the HS when they believed and were baptized according to Acts 2
    3. they were eligible to receive the laying on of hands to receive the miraculous gifts of the HS
    The difference between the before and after was Jesus.

    I would argue that we come with a clear conscience, even as they in Acts were convicted, which means they had faith to turn to Christ.
    “not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God”
    In a way it is saying that the water doesn’t do anything, but rather the submittal to the water is the answer of a good faith. It is the answer or response to the call of God. We answer in submittal and God cleanses. but our answer to God should cease while being baptized or even after it. That is our mistake to think that these are steps or transitions. The blood stays with us, even as our faith should burn and grow stronger. Our good conscience should always be answering to God.

  62. BonneeBee says:

    TO: DANIEL
    RE: Should we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or is it also biblical to baptize only in the name of Jesus Christ?
    .
    BOTH examples are given in scripture.
    NEITHER example is forbidden in scripture.

  63. Alabama John says:

    You should say when baptizing someone “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of your sins”. To leave any out will require it having to be done over.

    This has been the belief and teaching of the COC for generations.

    Its also why those wanting membership in the Lords Church that come from any of the denominations, even, upon questioning, they have been baptized differently, erroneously, must be re baptized to get it right.

  64. Whatever is biblical is permitted. Whatever is not permitted, is forbidden.

  65. BonneeBee says:

    TO: DWIGHT
    RE: Many in the coC have a knee jerk reaction to hearing that Jesus saves as if it is pushing for faith only, but this is hardly the case
    .
    ME: YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ EVERYTHING I WROTE BECAUSE…
    what you said in your entire comment IS EXACTLY the points i am trying to make:
    SALVATION = …
    faith + baptism
    NOT
    faith alone
    AND NOT
    baptism alone

  66. BonneeBee says:

    TO: DWIGHT
    RE: I would argue that we come with a clear conscience, even as they in Acts were convicted, which means they had faith to turn to Christ.
    .
    ME: WHY?
    When is a believer forgiven: before or during water baptism?
    How is it possible to have a good conscience BEFORE being forgiven?
    THINK ABOUT IT: BOTH…
    forgiveness & a good conscience toward God are directly linked in scripture to water baptism
    .
    I WOULD ARGUE…
    in favor of what the scriptures reveal

  67. Bonneebee says:

    TO: DWIGHT
    RE: What I find depressing is the taking of sides on one point versus another point, namely faith versus baptism as the saving point, when the scriptures always point to Christ as the saving point, even when faith and baptism are separately mentioned Christ is there as the savior.
    ,
    ME: YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY: THESE ARE DUELING DOCTRINES
    they are not compatable
    they cannot both be right
    THEY REQUIRE THE TAKING OF SIDES!
    .
    1 doctrine says “faith alone + nothing = salvation”
    THIS IS PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
    .
    & 1 doctrine says “faith + water baptism = salvation” NOT “baptism alone = salvation”
    THIS IS TRUE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE…
    straight from the Savior’s mouth
    .
    HOW TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTANTISM & TRUE DOCTRINE:
    Does Mark 16:16 say
    “he that believes is saved & shall be baptized but doesn’t have to”
    OR
    “he that believes & is baptized shall be saved”
    THERE’S YOUR ANSWER
    .
    1 doctrine is God’s truth
    & 1 doctrine is satan’s lie

  68. Faith and grace in Paul’s Galatian letter seems to include baptism per 3:26-27

  69. BonneeBee says:

    TO: DWIGHT
    .
    RE: There is something big missing and blatantly in the above rhetoric…Jesus, the savior.
    .
    ME: NOTHING MISSING; THE SO-CALLED RHETORIC IS MERELY…
    a bare-bones guide for evangelizers
    & a self-check list for seekers
    Diligent seekers will read the word of God.
    & those who read the word of God will read all about Jesus being the Savior.
    THAT’S WHY EVANGELIZERS NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO ACTUALLY SIT DOWN & READ THE GOSPEL…
    with seekers – it is essential to saving souls.
    .
    .
    RE: We largely in the coC have replaced Jesus the savior with the acts of saving, which point to Jesus.
    .
    ME: YOU HAVE ONLY IF YOU FAIL…
    to teach the words of the gospel to seekers
    THE WORD OF GOD…
    is the most powerful tool christians have to save souls – it is alive!
    TAKE TIME TO SIT & READ THE GOSPELS WITH SEEKERS BECAUSE…
    faith comes by hearing the word of God – romans 10:17
    NOT BY SERMONS OF PULPIT PREACHERS
    .
    .
    RE: Baptize … could mean to be surrounded by without having been dipped in as well … but washing could include water coming over as well.
    .
    ME: WORDS HAVE MEANING
    Jesus used the act of immersion & the word immersion for HIS purpose
    SO, NO…
    it could not mean anything else
    EXCHANGING WORDS = CHANGING THE MEANING…
    which results in damnation for both those who do it & those who follow those who do it

  70. Using words that do not reflect apostolic language, is a way to identify error. This principle is observed in 1 John 4:6, “Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error” and in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

  71. Dwight says:

    Daniel, I agree entirely, but then again is there any one not in error in some way?
    If so, then we are perfect before God.
    I John 4;6 was the apostles to the people. It is easy to place ourselves in the apostles shoes, but unless it comes from the scriptures it is not so.

    BoneeBee “ME: YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ EVERYTHING I WROTE BECAUSE…
    what you said in your entire comment IS EXACTLY the points I am trying to make:
    SALVATION = faith + baptism, NOT faith alone AND NOT baptism alone”
    BonneeBee you left out an important piece of this…Jesus.
    Neither faith nor baptism saves without Jesus.

    BonneeBee, you seem to jump into the argument against without understanding the statement.
    When I said, “I would argue that we come with a clear conscience, even as they in Acts were convicted, which means they had faith to turn to Christ.”
    I did not way that faith or a clear conscience saves you alone. In fact faith and the clear conscience should result in baptism. The scriptures say “baptism is the answer of a clear conscience” not the result of baptism, although baptism will give a feeling of relief and joy.

    BonneeBee “YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY: THESE ARE DUELING DOCTRINES
    they are not compatible, they cannot both be right, THEY REQUIRE THE TAKING OF SIDES!”
    Actually they don’t. I would argue that taking sides pits scripture against scripture as neither faith nor baptism alone saves. Taking sides means you are rooting for one other the other. It is like a sporting
    The dueling doctrine is neither right on both sides and results in pointilism or salvation at a point. The scriptures never argue anything like this. In fact scriptures argues for “faith and belief”, “repentance and belief”, etc. Salvation is never had at a point, unless that point is Jesus.
    “I am the way, the truth and the light.” “I am the door”
    This is like us arguing “that it was the scalpel that saves us in the surgery” and the other saying, “No it was the forceps that saves us.” and then arguing over which did it.
    The surgeon is either crying or angry at this point. Jesus is the surgeon.

    BonneeBee, even though “1 doctrine says “faith alone + nothing = salvation” most that say that don’t really believe it, because most would also say to be saved you must obey God, which means being baptized. This is largely a debate point, not reality.

    “1 doctrine says “faith + water baptism = salvation” NOT “baptism alone = salvation” This is true Biblical doctrine.”
    This is true to a point, kind of, because those in Ephesus had faith in John and were baptized into John.
    Were they saved?
    So the above debate argument and is a false statement.

    This rhetoric on both sides leaves out who does the saving. Even in Acts 2 the sermon wasn’t about faith and baptism, but Jesus. Faith, repentance and baptism was a response to Jesus.
    Phillip taught Jesus and it is probable that Phillip did say something about baptism, but then again it is possible that since the eunuch was baptized to become a Jew, he assumed that this must be true of that which was born out of Judaism. He would have been right.

    BonneeBee, don’t assume. I have grown up in the conservative coC so I know all of the arguments because I have used them all. Many of our counter points are just debate points. We say the point of salvation is baptism and they say the point is faith. But in real life we will also will say faith saves too and they will argue that true obedience, which includes baptism, saves.
    What we often miss in our debate mode is the savior.

    If you noticed my discussion back to you wasn’t in caps, which is seen as yelling.

    My statement “Baptize … could mean to be surrounded by without having been dipped in as well … but washing could include water coming over as well.’
    You said, “WORDS HAVE MEANING, Jesus used the act of immersion & the word immersion for HIS purpose.”
    Baptism does mean immersion, but if we are buried into Christ, we must realize that Jesus wasn’t buried under ground, but into the ground. We must also realize that the “baptism” or immersion that Noah and the Jews went through were not them going under water. Water surrounded them.
    I am immersed in air as we speak, according to the concept of immersion.
    If you are standing on the shore and a wave envelopes you, you are immersed.

    But notice I did not say that being dipped in water was wrong and wasn’t the right thing to do, simply because we turn ourselves over to another to save lay us down and raise us up in a washing of our spirit. This is all very important in understanding that we are placing ourselves in the hands of another in submission of will. I will always argue for baptism into Jesus.

  72. Alabama John says:

    What we preach is not to be tightly, no exceptions, held to in every situation. God will make allowances to the rule if circumstances warrant it. He is love, above all else after all.

    Its the devil that continues to make God out a bad judge that will see so many of us in hell so don’t believe it. Loosen the reins some!!!

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