It’s a national holiday, the Fourth of July maybe, and a deeply respected, elderly member approaches you as a leader in your church. He’s a veteran, and he asks that the church prominently display an American flag in the church’s auditorium as a sign of appreciation for all the veterans who are church members and in gratitude for the sacrifice of the many soldiers that kept the nation free.
The church has never had a flag on its stage or outside or anywhere else before.
Do you —
1. Display the flag all the time?
2. Display the flag only for patriotic holidays established by the US Congress?
3. Display the flag outdoors, on the church grounds, but not in the auditorium?
4. Kindly explain to the gentleman that he is a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven and that’s the only kingdom that should be celebrated in the church?
Does your answer change if your church has foreign nationals as members, such as Vietnamese graduate students?
If you were meeting in an illegal house church in China, would you place a Chinese flag in the front of your meeting space?
What if you were the leader of a church in South Africa? Would you place a South African flag in your church there?
Argentina?
Ireland?
Canada?
Are your answers a personal preference or a scriptural mandate?
Yes, we honor and pay tribute to the service and lives lost of military men and women in our congregation and proudly display the American Flag during the recognition… We pray for our men and women and for the leaders of our country and ask God, as former Presidents used to, to bless and defend our country. I would expect that believers in every country would like for God to have His way with the leadership of that country. However, the banner that is normally hanging over us is Love.
The common belief and practice of the churches of Christ here is no flag of any country displayed anywhere since we are not of this world, peaceful, and don’t approve of those that vote or serve in the military.
No patriotic songs on Veterans Day at services, or any other day and no recognition of veterans by preachers or congregations.
Alabama John — I’m not sure I agree with the “common belief” part of your post, but it’s certainly common practice.
Personally, I’d like to see the flag displayed, but I recognize the potential mixed message it sends.
A significant aspect of the problem is excessive significance many, if not most, people put on the “sanctuary.” I believe such emphasis is misplaced, but that does not make the emphasis go away.
This is just another example of where we’ve turned the freedom we have to display or not display the flag (in the context of Romans 14) into a rule, which causes disagreements between disciples.
In congregations where I have served, I have attempted to influence the decision whether to display the American flag toward not displaying it at all. I have no scripture passage that gives direct instruction; I only have biblical principles about first allegiance, highest honor, the whole “my kingdom is not of this world” thing. And I refer to the purposes of the regular church gathering, all of which focus either on the honor of God, instruction in His word, and building up the saints.
I first started thinking hard about it when I once alerted that the flags (the American and Christian flags) in the auditorium were in the wrong places, according to accepted flag protocol. If the American flag is displayed with other flags, protocol demands that it occupy the place of honor relative to the other flags. It struck me that, in a place set aside for the worship of and purposes of God, the American flag had no business holding a place of honor higher than the flag that (unofficially but traditionally) represents God and His church.
Mr. Price,
“We pray for our men and women and for the leaders of our country and ask God, as former Presidents used to, to bless and defend our country.”
That is the honorable and correct thing to do, but also remember to …
” Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?” (Mat 5:44-46 ESV)
BKM… We don’t hold a special day to recognize our enemies and pray for them…interesting suggestion…. I’m not aware of any service that I’ve ever attended where that was done but it sure would make a point…
Sam….not to be flippant because it seems that you take it very seriously, but without divine instruction, how did you decide where to put the bathrooms in the building? Surely, not everything has to have an instruction… And, the Christian Flag is displayed prominently and superior to the US flag in church services according to flag protocol.. But, absent any divine instruction, one is free to choose what they wish to do according to conscience, IMHO>
I did an interesting, though unscientific, bit of research a few years ago. Using Google Images, I searched for “Bible” and “Flag.” I repeated the search in as many languages as I could find the proper words for.
If memory serves, all of the pictures were of U.S. flags and the Bible, except for one.
I don’t think most other countries have the same problem separating their faith and their nationalism as we do.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Constantinian heresy, so no flag on church grounds.
Maybe if America weren’t so prone to this error, we could sometimes have the flag, but for the American church in paticular it is wrong to have the flag.
I think I could render acceptable worship to God with a flag in the auditorium or on the grounds ouitside the auditorium. However, I would prefer to worship without the flag for some members or visitors might misunderstand.
Why do we often ask God to bless our soldiers but seldom ask God to bless our enemies whom we profess to love. With careful wording of our prayer we might do both.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Price, it is hard enough to obey that commandment without outside distractions, but at the very least we can try to keep earthly distractions from our place of worship.
I know, churches have turned into a community center more than a place of worship, but at least we should try to give God our total attention while in his house on his day.
We display the American flag on the outside near the church marquee. In the main foyer, we have a display with photos of all our members and their family members who are currently serving on active duty. Extra prominence is given to a recently fallen soldier who was in my teen bible class a few years ago.
I think this falls within the biblical instruction to pray for and give honor to the leaders of our country.
I personally would not want to permanently display the US flag during worship for two reasons: 1) we are to honor God who is above all nations and 2) I don’t like any kind of icon associated with worship.
Side note: how much better off would our country be if we would recite the Lord’s prayer rather than the pledge of allegiance in schools and before sporting events?
we all live in one form or another near the”Rubicon river”
“Suetonius’s account depicts Caesar as undecided as he approached the river,
and attributes the crossing to a supernatural apparition.
The phrase “crossing the Rubicon” has survived to refer to any individual or group committing itself irrevocably to a risky or revolutionary course of action, similar to the modern phrase “passing the point of no return”.
of course my relevant use today would be a sign
that pointed to a large hole,that says.
“WELCOME TO THE RABBIT HOLE :
PLEASE ENTER!
UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT!!!”
🙂
BLESSINGS RICH
Francis, my thoughts are similar. I can, and do; but would rather not.
But if we seperated ourselves over every particular “rather not”, what a mess that would be.
Wait a minute, that has happened in the CoC already, hasn’t it.
This is great discussion because it gets to the root of our position of following Christ vs. following an organization. 1 Tim 2:1-7 addresses our proper response toward our political leaders. Our “Christian” perspective has been bent though to a worldly view of a nationalistic religion which we feed from out of expediency. The good is freedom, the evil is freedom for freedom’s sake. Our King is Jesus. Our code is love. The world’s lord has bent it’s knee to idolatory and it’s code is greed.
Just a thought about “places of worship”…doesn’t the Lord’s word say, a John 4: “20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” It seems to me that far too much emphasis is placed on the “where” we worship and thus making it some sort of “sacred” place. It’s just a building or a park or the seashore or the riverside or a house. What matters is our heart. I also think it interesting that Jesus did not condemn the request to heal the Centurion’s slave who was reported as one who “loves our nation” (Lk 7:5). Our allegiance is to be with the Lord and our hearts in Heaven, but I don’t believe (IMO) that the Lord is mandating that we cannot love our country. We are even told not to speak evil of the ruler of our country (Acts 23:4-6). I love our nation. I love how we began and the dependency that many of our leaders placed on the Lord God. It saddens me to see the height from which we have fallen. Righteousness exalts a nation and I believe we began that way and we had good laws and just laws because many of them had their basis in scripture (in my understanding). As to other nations, I don’t see anywhere where patriotism is condemned in the scriptures. However, I am not sure about displaying other flags in this country. Then again, we have the scripture that says, Acts 10: 34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—
for what it’s worth :/
boy john you just got to love history and short term memory loss..
philippians 4:8
spirit always explains things better than I can.
what a local congregation it does it’s none of my business.
everybody look at it they would put the flag upside down.
I think that still mean something
🙂
Displaying a flag, no. How about a cross?
Would you put a cross up in a church? In most its forbidden just as much as a flag.
Would you wear on a chain around your neck or display a death instrument like a hang mans noose or electric chair? Of course not. Same instruments, same purposes.
It always disturbs me when I come to the US and the the flags in so many churches (of various denominations). I follow the convictions of Lipscomb concerning state and military – and the symbols thereof. Not because Lipscomb said so, but because they are a direct application of the Sermon on the Mount and the techings on separation. Almost all men of our congregation were conscientious objectors.
I don’t stand up when our Austrian anthem is played, nor do I take of my hat. I am totally unmoved by patriotism of this world, because I am a citizen of an unshakable Kingdom.
Showing double loyalty would mean disloyalty to God.
Alexander
Joshua 22 comes to mind.
Jay,
Compromise isn’t always the best solution, but in this case it may be.
Allow me to get back to your original hypothetical situation. In our congregation, it’s not so hypothetical. Located near a major Army post, we have a high percentage of military (active and retired) in the congregation. Needless to say, we are a patriotic bunch. We have many deployed members and we even have one member who died in combat. We do not, however, have a flag raised in the auditorium. What we do have (and what I would recommend to the elder in your example) is a folded flag inside a frame which we have prominently displayed in our foyer.
The question to me is this: What does the flag represent? (it’s the same issue faced by those who argue above whether or not it is appropriate for an individual to fly a Confederate flag — the argument takes place because that flag represents one thing to some people and something entirely different to others)
To some, the American flag (especially in a raised position) represents “allegiance”. A raised flag conjures up images of “pledging allegiance” to another kingdom which is a stumbling block for many Christians (including many of those making comments above). To others, however, the flag represents nothing more than “freedom”, something we all hold dear.
In my opinion, a folded flag as a decoration (or a picture of a flag, for that matter) more appropriately conveys the concept of “freedom” (and other positive concepts) without evoking the negative concept of “allegiance”. In our congregation, it allows us to celebrate something we treasure as a blessing from God without provoking feelings of guilt in others.
We never display the American flag. We do have a slide in our announcement rotation with pictures of our people in the military and asking prayers for them. The reason not to display the flag is primarily to prevent confusion between patriotism and discipleship to Christ, to counter the easy confusion between cultural values and Christian mandates. In addition, our congregation has over 20 nationalities represented in membership. The kingdom of God is universal, world-wide, not American.
I was always under the impression that I could pledge loyalty to anything I wanted as long as it didn’t interfere or wasn’t counter to my faith… Many professionals take oaths to which they are held… Most have never considered the Pledge of Allegiance to be un-Christian… I never anticipated the remarks I’ve seen here… As long as God is first, who minds if you have something second ?? I don’t get it.
Price – – in saying that there is no specific instruction in the Scriptures about it, I simply meant that we are free to follow the dictates of our conscience and of our understanding of God’s general principles for us, and that this is how I try to follow mine. We are in agreement about that.
This is from the U. S. Flag Code, as passed by Congress:
No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. . . . When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman’s or speaker’s right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.
hey jay let’s talk about individualism.
and does a western hermeneutic goto far elevating the individual to the point of being counterproductive principles of the new testament
is thelr really a place for individualism in the reformed church of christ.
I know, I .know, it’s restored.
although if you look at it really what happened,. from this example of posts.
what we seem to be doing ls what the reformation did in changing the definition of imperialism to individualism
Sam…I stand corrected…the first flag code I googled was not as specific as your remarks so I went back and double checked…you are correct…. I suppose if we had a “Christian” flag, I would indeed have an issue with displaying it in subordination to the US flag… I also appreciate your clarifying our agreement on the freedom that we have to honor our conscience where specific instruction is lacking…
anyway it seems to me that we have lost sight of Godsgood corporate policy,
I’m pretty sure jesus only spoke, to the detriment of the monotheocracy, whenGod’ rule was intermingled with mens traditions,.
where is that rubicon river for the church
how did we go over that river a long long long time ago.
anyway happy thoughts blessings rich constant
In our worship on July 3 virtually all of the songs were “patriotic” – America, My Country ‘Tis of Thee (actually, God Save the Queen with American words), Battle Hymn of the Republic, etc.
It fell my lot to lead “the main prayer” that morning. I prayed for our leaders, but also confessed our need for holiness and righteousness as a nation – and as a congregation. I prayed about our tendency to confuse Americanism and Christianity (and even Conservative Republicanism? – no, that did not get into my prayer).
I am personally uncomfortable in singing the patriotic songs. My wife was born in England, but is naturalized. Our preacher’s wife is German, as is his teen-aged son. He spent 15 years in East Germany as a missionary. I spent 7 years in New Zealand in missions, and for the past 4 years I’ve worked part time with Eastern European Mission. You might say that my life experience has biased me, but I see a real danger in elevating patriotism, for the state has a way of seeking to be Lord. It has always been so, but we have only one Lord.
The flag is a symbol of the State, the national government. The Jehovah’s Witnesses view it as an idol. I don’t go quite that far, but I can easily see how it can become one.
Jerry
No flag…it tells a story different than the story we are embodying as Christians gathered to worship the Lord.
As for flags in the church building, I’m still looking for that NT passage praising those Roman legionary standards set up in their house churches.
I find that those who would want to have the national flag in their church buildings tend to have a problem knowing (1) where their faith is directed and (2) what that faith actually is in.
And where, Bob, are those NT passages praising the multimillion dollar buildings.
Romans 14 seems to indicate things like the flag are matter of individual conscience. You have no standing to judge my faith based upon the presence or absence of a flag.
If a flag is threat to your faith, it’s possible your faith is on a pretty thin foundation. Is that true, for you?
To some, a flag is an indication of authority. To others, a flag is simply a sign of respect.
How do you conclude anything by the simple presence or absence of a flag.
The absence of a flag does not prove that someone’s faith is truly directed to God.
Bob,
Same with a cross.
Where is the scripture saying to display the Roman cross? Most denominations do it, the COC doesn’t.
No flag should be displayed in a church. Could be part of a special program or something like that.
I only know of one church of Christ that has a cross behind the pulpit and none that have a flag of any kind.
The only flags I have seen displayed is the US, military, and POW in yards and on members of the church of Christ tombstones and most members are usually surprised in those other than tose mentioned above. Masons, Woodmen of the World, Confederate, etc.. brothers and Sisters don’t tell other members everything and many are part of organizations preachers preach against and just keep their mouths shut.
You never know who is going to show up, take over, at a funeral to do their organizations last rites and place items on the casket or whatever after the preacher finishes.
A pledge of allegiance is an oath of loyalty. If we place loyalty to any Earthly state, where will that leave us when this State stanbds in conflict with the Kingdom?
Many professionals take oaths: Take government offiancials for instance, who sewar to uphold justice and execute the laws of the state. Which means they have to executre laws that are in part unjust according to God’s laws – and, normally, at they time the oath is administered, they have only a shallow knowledge of all these laws. And furthermore: Laws change, but the oath is still binding.
It is nonsense to do this, Price! No one who thinks a few steps ahead, could agree to such demands of loyalty from perishing, fallible and wicked institutions!
There is a reason, why both our Lord and His brother James clearly forbade ANY oaths – and the ECF were unanimous in their understanding of this which is the same as the Anabaptists still hold to: No oaths at all, no participation in earthly goovernments. No military service. These all stand in conflict with the Kingdom of God – we cannot divide up ouir loyalities.
Alexander
Alexander…I wouldn’t argue with you in regard to where an entity to which we placed some loyalty or allegiance would be in conflict with the Kingdom of God…BUT…
Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
If I understand this correctly…God Himself is in control of the leadership of ALL the governing authorities.. Some are bad. Some are good…but they are ALL under His jurisdiction.. So, if I submit to the governing authorities is that is some way showing disrespect to God ? No, He’s the one that said to do it… except where those authorities would ask of me things that violate my faith…
I’m quite certain that my allegiance to my country if not in violation of Kingdom principals is not in conflict with God’s direction. I make an oath to my wife to love, honor and respect.. I don’t see that as a conflict.. Physicians take an oath that doesn’t seem in conflict… Lawyers may do the same… I’m glad I live in a country that allows me to be a conscientious objector…I like freedom… I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance as it recognizes that our Nation is “under God.”
But to each his own….
I wonder how long it would have taken the gospel to get out of the Middle East had Paul not availed himself of his rights as a Roman citizen and instead been scourged, and probably killed, by the Roman soldiers in Acts 22? What if he’d said he considered it counter to his calling to use the privilege that citizenship afforded him? But he didn’t; he instead considered being a citizen of the Empire a tool to be used on behalf of the One True Kingdom. I know without a doubt it would not have thwarted God’s plan for the gospel’s spread, but simply caused the need for “another route” with another evangelist. However, that “second route” more than likely wouldn’t have been an overnight transition from Paul to whomever.
What is citizenship, but a pledge to be loyal to a certain country? After all, doing something on behalf of another country that threatens the country of my citizenship is considered a high crime – treason.
We don’t have a flag in or around our building. (Neither do we sing the patriotic songs in our hymnal very often if at all). I think, I too, would perhaps be a little uncomfortable with it, but simply because I personally think we already tie our Christianity to our country far, far too much in America. I’d personally be far more uncomfortable singing the praises of America in song during a worship service devoted to God (I say that after having grown up in a church that ALWAYS sang them at certain holidays, and I don’t condemn those who do). But neither am I ashamed of my nation, of those who have died protecting our way of life, or to avail myself of the freedoms, rights and privileges it offers to me – even if I hold my true citizenship in the Spiritual Kingdom of God.
OK, Rom 13. The emperor was Nero.
Was is OK for Christians to take government positions in this “regime”? Well, if we have no objections to idolatry, maybe. And if we would partake in stupid warfares for the glory of Rome – Here we go!
No, Price: Rom 13 does not mean that Christians are called to be the most reliable citicens an earthly government could wish for. We are obedient only within certain limits (Acts 5:29), we pay our taxes, that is, we render to Caesar what is Caesar’s – he can have our money, but not our total allegiance, because this belongs alone to God.
There are TWO Kingdoms: The Kingdom of God and the Kindoms of this world. The latter ones are not executing God’s justice and peace – although God is in control and CAN (and often does) use them for his purposes; but there is a second power at work in all earthly states: Satan was not kidding when he boasted:
Note, that Jesus did not contradict this statement. Romans 13 and Satan’s boast are equally true. There is a reason for this: All people have sinned and are in bondage to Satan, which includes all governments. The nations are in darkness and the ONLY light that shines in this world is the Light of Christ through His Church (and how dim this is!)
The problem with the pledge of allegiance is that it is a lie (or wishful thinking at best)! The US are NOT a nation under God. The “In God we trust”-Motto on the One-Dollar Bill is masonic. Even Hitler’s soldiers in World War II had the motto on their belt-buckles: “God is with us” – And Hitler described himself as “god-believing”. There is no Christian nation in this world, and the US don’t act very Christian either: Wars beased on lies, mistreatment of war prisoners, the way the US interfere with the politics of other nations (e.g. inticing revolts as the one in Persia), or the way resources are drawn from other countries impoverishing them … just to name a few.
When we as Christians take government positions, we are collaborating with all of this. When we take an oath of military service, we are bound to do whatever US-politics demands. When we are taking the oath of a police man, we are forced to execute laws that are sometimes unjust. We cannot pick and choose as soon as we took the oath.
The nature of an oath is different from a simple yes or no. A yes or no is directed to a specific issue, and WE decide whether we agree or disagree. An oath is demanded by a superior in order to guaratee TOTAL obedience WITHOUT us knowing what all this will encompass. As I said, most government officials don’t even know all the laws they swore to execute. And most laws change within years after they have taken the oath. So they agree to do what they even don’t know yet!
Why do all these laws change? Because there is no truth in this world; Satan keeps the nations in confusion and darkness.
It is not our job to clean up or sort out the mess of earthly governments, but to preach the Kingdom. In order to preach it in an undefiled manner, we must keep separated from the systems of this world, which included that we shall not be involved in politics (being members of a political party, running as a candidate, …).
Placing a US-flag (or an Austrian flag) into a church would directly contradict our message. There is no room for patriotism in Christ’s church other than a zeal for the Kingdom.
And last but not least, we are forbidden to take any oath:
This verse starts with an “above all” showing its priority and ends with “condemnation” pointing to the consequences. It is a very serious matter.
The problem, Price, is that most Christians never thought these issues through to the end. Many somehow believe they can have the best of both worlds, of the Kingdom and the world. And therefore they think, it only becaomes a problem when a specific conflict arises. But then it is already too late – because the wrong turn was taken earlier, when we blurred the borderline between the Kingom and the world. And this, Price, happened first under Constantine, and ever since most reformers were blind to that.
The churches of Christ understood it well until World War II – until for reasons I don’t really know within one generation they changed their position and became (almost) as militaristic and patriotic as all the “Constantinian denominations”.
And now such questions arise concernings flags and Veteran’s day and the like … Think about it. I know these thoughts are new and shocking to many, maybe even to you. But my Christian upbringing (from age 18 on) was Mennonite/Evangelical, therefore I really had to deal with these questions, because they are part of our heritage.
Alexander
@ Brad
I highly recommend the Book “The search for the twelve Apostles” by William Steuart McBirnie. It corrects the impression Acts gives that basically all mission work was carried out by Paul. To my knowledge, none of the 12 had Roman citicenship.
But there still is a huge step from being born with certain rights as a citicen and to pledge total allegiance to the country one is born in.
After all, also Paul’s message was not misunderstood:
Alexander
Jay!
Can you explain Romans 13:1-14 About ” DUTIES TOWARDS CIVIL AUTHORITIES AND THE DEBT OF LOVE”
Chapter 13-7: Christians and Non-Christians Are Subject to Higher Powers
Chapter 13:8-10: The Christian’s Attitude towars All Men.
Chapter 13:11-14 Living Holy Lives As Eternity Approaches.
All People are to submit to the “higher Powers” because the principle of civil Authority id ordenained and aproved by God. The person who opposes the idea of civil goverment opposes God. A christian is never required to yield to that which is sinful, and will always obey God rather than man (Act. 5:29). There is only one divine law, and all people are amenable to that law. If non-Christian have God’s permission to “bear not the sword in vain” against certain evil-doers, the Christian has the same permision. Capital punishment is an eternal principle stated long before the law of moses or the Christian age (Gen.9:6). Taxes must be paid; (Caesar and God) honor and respect must be shown for the positions of authority that God has ordained. The greatest thing in the world is biblical love (1Cor. 13:13). A christian must possess such love for God and his fellow man.
Well Alexander, we part again…I’m proud of my country and the men and women who gave their lives defending your right to speak freely, even if I think it’s a bunch of hogwash..
How did the first century Christians every speak freely (which they did) that Jesus Christ, not Caesar, was King (Acts 17.7) without the big, bad American military to give them that freedom?
I’ll tell you how. They believed that in Jesus, God had delivered them from the power of darkness and had disarmed the powers and authorities (Col 1.13; 2.15). To say that our freedom to speak about anything depends on the military or any other entity other than God in Christ alone is dualistic hogwash (if I may be so blunt)!
Grace and Peace,
Rex
Rex…spoken like a true American…now go over to Saudi Arabia and try speaking like that…You’ll meet Jesus on the spot…
For Alabama John,
FYI, we have 4 crosses in our auditorium: one on the wall behind the baptistry, one free-standing 8 ft. and two small ones on a shelf (along with a Bible) behind the pulpit.
Price,
Your comment to Alexander was not very loving. Are you even sure he is a citizen of the USA? I think I remember reading that he is from Europe, but I’m not sure. In any event, the Kingdom of God is greater far than any nation of men on earth. The attitude you expressed is that of “the ugly American”.
Rex, Right on! thanks for being so blunt!
Price, again you speak more as a citizen of America than of the Kingdom of God. Many of the early Christians did so speak – and they did meet Jesus prematurely. But that did not stop them speaking and calling Him Lord – even while praying for Caesar.
My brother, you need to examine your heart loyalties. Is it to King Jesus? Or to the USA?
Jerry
Jerry…I probably should apologize for the sake of brotherly love and unity but I really don’t feel much doing that…Alexander and I see things from opposite ends of the spectrum all the time which is healthy…but for the record, I really don’t care where you’re from..If you enjoy the freedom of worshiping God without fear of being shot dead on the spot then you might show some appreciation for the men and women that died to make that freedom available…My patriotism has nothing to do with my priority…Kingdom is First, Family is second, and my country is Third… I see no conflict nor eternal risk on my part for showing some appreciation for the tremendous price of freedom that was paid and is being paid for others to enjoy.
It’s a privilege to live the USA… If people don’t want to be appreciative that’s there right to express their opinion…in this country..not in very many others… I don’t have to like it and you can count on me letting you know about it…every time. That’s my right and privilege… And, it ruffles my feathers for people to associate the tremendous pride that I have in being an American with some sort of un-Christ like action. Christ died to set men free…He asked us to remember…I see no inconsistency with remembering with great admiration and respect the men and women that died to make this country a place where it is safe to do so… In fact in troubles me to see so many men here on this blog speak so unbecomingly of the USA as if it were a Biblical principal to do so…Shameful. IMHO. And THAT’S all I’m gonna say about that.
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Randy,
We also have one behind the pulpit, in front of the baptistery.
One of many marks of a liberal/progressive church of Christ congregation.
Christ did not earn us freedom by using force, violence or war. He set us free through the cross. So I am a free man even in Saudi-Arabia, if you want to send me there. And there are more than one missionaries working there using their freedom in Christ to speak boldly but also with wisdom (you know, the parable of the snakes and doves). We are sent like sheep among the wolves.
Your concept of freedom is not the freedom of the Kingdom. You should not forget that the way the US “won” their freedom was by acting directly against Romans 13, revolting against their British King. And what ugly things they did when they robbed the native Americans of their freedom! You can be proud of your country, because not all the US did was bad. But it is evident that the US are no exception to Satan’s boast.
Saying this I don’t mean to dishonor our earthly governments; I’m just stating the fact that they are in darkness and under bondage, that’s why we should pray for them that they might come to know the truth (1Tim 2:1-4).
As someone said: Our churches are multinational. I do well remember the time of the war in Yugoslawia. How much hatred, how patriotic! And so much talk about their different understandings of “freedom”. I had a colleage in my company from Croatia. When a man from Serbia was hired as a new worker, she saw to it that he did not like his new job very much and quit very soon. Such was the enmity even in Vienna.
Now, there was also a Yugoslavian Baptist church, Croatians and Serbs worshipping together – and they kept the peace of christ even in these years. Imagine: Which flag should they have displayed? For which “tribe’s” cause should they have prayed for? Times like these show that patriotism does not fit into Christ’s church. In times of peace where our “follies” have no consequences we dream we can have “the best of both worlds”, but this proved to me the incompatibility of the Kingdom and the World. We are a different people in Christ, a Holy Nation, taken out of this world – and this should be displayed in our message and life among the different nations.
This means: We will eventually be hated by all men (as Jesus predicted), because we are not of this world. We are sheep among wolves and only then are we really free when we don’t disguise ourselves as wolves in order not to be devoured.
That’s martyr-theology, something that got quite forgotten among all Western churches.
Alexander
BTW: I’m not mad at you because of this “hogwash”-reaction – I can understand how you feel. I knew I’m going to hurt you, because most likely I touched a sick spot. Just think about it: Is your reaction the one of one howling with the wolves?
When we assembled this past weekend, w discussed liberty … in Christ – the freedom from sin’s penalty and power which He alone can offer.
As music leader I made sure we played the video version of Ray Boltz’s “I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE LAMB” (and I would suggest that it is appropriate for any who would not have a coronary over an instrumentally accompanied song video)… both before and after the assembly. If you have not seen the video, it is the one on Youtube that shows a father talking to his young son interspersed throughout the song. (It is a tear jerker for those who hold allegiance to Christ in the face of the threat of death for such faith.)
We also sing “Find Us Faithful” from time to time. I have introduced both songs to the assembly here in Merrillville, Indiana. I was once offered a commission in the U.S.Navy as an interpreter of intercepted intelligence. I turned it down. My heart belongs to one Master only. And my family is well aware that they come second to my Lord. Whether my nation knows my allegiance is already taken is of no consequence to me.
Have a flag or don’t, but never for a moment entertain the notion that any nation even begins to compare favorably with the kingdom of heaven Jesus calls us to enter with him as our King.
I am also often called upon to lead prayer (whatever that means) and asked to pray for our U.S. troops in harm’s way. I have no problem with that – especially since I also ALWAYS pray for those who are the enemies of those troops and their families.
I seek to live at peace with all men and have suggested to our proud patriots that we could put it to a vote if they wish to require the congregation to display ANY flags on any special days. None have asked for that, despite the tendency of some who never served to offer it up as a guilt-offering to our vets. We have some highly decorated vets in the congregation from WWII through the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars. None who have been to battle have glorified it at all – much less to the degree of many non-combatants who think there is shame in not serving.
I appreciate what our vets have done … just as I appreciate the positives of any force for good. However I do not pretend that America is faultless in her military pursuits. America is not a saintly nation. I was called to make disciples, not build up one nation over another. I try to remember that – even when my gut wants the blood of those who have senselessly killed others as in riots and protests and even 9-11-01. I was not thrilled when Sadam died, nor did I celebrate when Osama Bin Laden was killed.
Both were enemies of our Lord, and so it was only a sadness at their lostness that struck me. How I wished that someone had been able to reach either or both of them with the gospel of Jesus!
In our congregation we have prayer requests and celebration time every week … in fact, every time we meet together. This year we are using a claendar put out by the Voice of the Martyrs organization. We are praying for one or two nations every week – looking to their geography, the state of their political peace and how that affects our brethren there, and praying for God to raise up leaders with unrelenting faith to influence them to be welcoming to the gospel. We pray for the U.S. the very same prayer.
We are no better than anyone else for any of this. We are yet still unprofitable servants in a small congregation barely holding on. We ask no quarter nor give any for making this choice. And we allow others the same privilege of care for one another.
I appreciate the passion in this discussion and cannot help but wonder if we have the same passion for developing relationships with the purpose of sharing the gospel? I optimistically hold out hope that we do.
Blessings,
Grizz
Why have a flag at all? What does a flag or our nationality have to do with our meeting together as brothers and sisters in Christ?
I grew up in apartheid South Africa. The denomination I grew up in by and large opposed the apartheid regime, others supported it. The South African flag stood for institutionalised racism and many horrible evils that resulted from that. It would have bene abhorrent in a church building. But even those denominations who supported the regime did not have flags in their church buildings.
To me having a flag in a church building says “idol”.