HistoryGuy, who’s been missing far too long due to health problems, wrote,
The conversation about the flag seems to have become a discussion about pacifism. If a flag should not be present because pacifism is true, then simply state that as a view. Those who are not pacifists must debate the merits of a national flag on other grounds.
HistoryGuy,
Delighted that you’re up to joining the conversation here again.
And you’re exactly right that pacifism isn’t the same issue as whether we should hang a flag in the auditorium. A pacifist would surely oppose most celebrations of nationalism (although not all pacifists would). But does that mean that a non-pacifist would necessarily hang a flag in his church auditorium? I don’t think so. I’m not a pacifist, and yet I would object to hanging a flag anywhere on church grounds other than for certain special events.
I mean, what’s the argument for the flag? That we should appreciate the soldiers? Well, don’t we also appreciate our teachers, policemen, and firemen? Don’t we appreciate the border patrol and the Coast Guard? Why focus on the soldiers?
And I also appreciate the British, Australian, and Polish soldiers who fight alongside our soldiers. Why not their flags?
We’ve had policemen from all over the Southeast come to Tuscaloosa to provide security during tornado recovery. We really appreciate it. But we don’t fly the flags of New Orleans or Knoxville police departments.
My church has an annual celebration of the school teachers in town. We have many school teacher members. They don’t get a banner.
For some reason, the fact that we greatly appreciate someone’s work doesn’t get them a flag — unless they’re US military — and that should tell us something about what we’re really celebrating. It’s not just that we appreciate them. We’re also celebrating being Americans. We are celebrating our nation — our earthly nation — in a space that’s supposed to be about the Kingdom of Heaven.
Here’s my thinking: I’m entirely good with celebrating our veterans and members in the military on occasion. I don’t mind having a flag on the stage on such occasions. We do it in my church, and I like it. I really do appreciate them, and I’m no pacifist.
However, on those occasions, we have to remember that we have members and visitors from other countries, some of whom aren’t as happy about the US military as we are. Some sensitivity is appropriate. We don’t shout “USA! USA!” Rather, we solemnly and sincerely thank the military for their much-appreciated service. And we mean it.
If I led a church in Argentina or any nation where the military protected the church rather than persecuted the church, I’d do the same. If I were in a country where the military persecutes the church, I’d pray for the military and thank them for what good they do — whatever that might be.
(Rom 13:7 ESV) 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Paul wrote that concerning the Roman military — an occupying force in Judea and a force used to persecute Christians in some parts of the Empire.
No government and no military is perfect. All make mistakes. And all do some good. We should be thankful for the good we receive from God via the military, whatever it may be.
(1Ti 2:1-2 ESV) First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
But when we hang a flag in the auditorium on a continuous basis, we’re moving from gratitude to nationalism. The flag stands for a great nation, but it’s just one nation. And we are not foremost citizens of that nation. Rather, we are resident aliens.
(Phi 3:20 ESV) 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Pe 2:9 ESV) 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Yes, we have legal standing as citizens of the US, just as Paul had legal standing as a citizen of Rome, and we no more need to renounce our US citizenship than Paul needed to renounce his Roman citizenship. But citizenship is a thing — a temporal thing that’s tied to this age and will not survive the coming of Jesus.
(Mat 19:21 ESV) Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Worldly citizenship is something we lay at the foot of the cross. If we can use it to serve Jesus, we use it. If it interferes, we surrender it.
(Luk 16:13a ESV) 13a No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.”
It’s a thing of this world that won’t last, and only those things that last matter in the end. The citizenship that lasts forever, the citizenship that truly matters, is our citizenship in heaven. And the King we worship does not have a throne in Washington, DC.
The church is already too divided and tribal. Why hang the banner of just one tribe?
And I can’t imagine that hanging an American flag in a church makes the congregation seem welcoming to visitors from outside the US. And who knows how a foreigner would understand the flag. Are we declaring support for a particular war? For our nation above all others? Flags means many different things in this country and far more other things in other countries. I see no good and much potential harm when it comes to visitors from outside the US.
No, to me it’s simple. I’m a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is my King. Everything else is very, very secondary. And church is about primary things.
and for churches who meet in school cafeterias, community centers, members’ homes, and/or other public places? it’s interesting to me how that might change the discussion for us.
is it any space in which we meet that is devoted to God, consecrated and set apart as holy? or is it only those spaces which we own? what’s the difference?
and how might that affect who we allow to use / rent our facilities and what they do there?
I would not object, to a “Christian Flag” flying over every Christian Church building. or standing behind the preacher, as a matter of fact I believe it would be more uniting than a painted sign outside pointing out the fact that “This Church is different, than the one down the street”
Jay, I’m assuming what you are discussing is the Normal church building…obviously, as James B points out, there are folks who meet in various facilities not owned by the the “church” such as school auditoriums that might have a flag permanently displayed inside and/or outside the meeting area….. Under the “normal” conditions, I don’t disagree at all with you regarding what is permanently established…The church is a separate organization from the State…Any “banner” over us should be LOVE…and proudly displayed…but that as you clearly pointed out shouldn’t prevent us from honoring our men and women that protect us, no matter how imperfectly, from people that wish to kill us… if only on certain appropriate days…
And, while I totally agree that the Kingdom is priority over the State, I don’t see where being a proud citizen is contradictory to Kingdom living within reason… Would a visitor from Ethiopia be more impressed if I were embarrassed about being a citizen ?? I find that a difficult argument to appreciate… It would also surprise me if in each and every country there wasn’t some recognition of those that serve that country by standing in defense of it so it shouldn’t insult anyone who also does the same thing in their country….
But, I do agree that a flag also represents polar opposite sides of a political debate…Republicans and Democrats…Tea Party…etc…and I’m sure our worship time is better spent praising God than debating politics however much they effect our lives…but even then how does a Christian respond to abortion politics…ignore it ?? Involve themselves and attempt to change it ?? There are a host of discussion topics that one might believe that a Christian SHOULD make some attempt to have an impact on at it relates to laws and customs of the State… But as much as that permeates our lives I would agree that perhaps it would be best to maintain our Temple environment free of sectarian influence…
I simply do not care if the flag is there or the flag is not.
If you say you oppose the flag being, I’ll probably favor it. If you insist the flag be there, I’ll probably oppose it.
I appreciate our military. The young guys and gals I see joining to serve are often kind-hearted kids who love their families, church and country, and are doing that they think is best to serve and protect. I honor that.
How is the best way to show appreciation and honor to them? I’m not sure flying a flag in the sanctuary is the best way. I’ve just read several books about American POWs left behind in Viet Nam, and how one soldier got a message to a doctor about wanting to come home. If that story is true, there have to be better ways for us to honor and appreciate him then flying a flag.
One other thing: while I appreciate our military personnel, we can’t deny some of the inappropriate things that happen during war, some things that necessitate our grief and repentance, not our celebration. Would a pacifist visitor to our assembly, or a foreign visitor, equate our flag-flying with blanket endorsement, or would they assume that we acknowledge our mistakes, and even sins, with appropriate repentance? Has anyone ever heard a church leader announce in church, “We accidentally killed an entire family this week, women and children. Let’s take a moment of silence to pray for the family, and to pray God not lay this charge against us.”
Let me offer a few random thoughts:
(1) I am increasingly a pacifist, but I do not associate the flag with the military. Feel free to enlighten me on that point; I haven’t caught up on reading the comments, so maybe something was brought out yesterday that I missed.
(2) There is a false dichotomy presented between either being a fervent patriot or being embarrassed of one’s citizenship. Citizenship is a piece of personal data. It’s a fact of life that this world insists on identifying us as belonging to some nation. We can’t get away from that. I don’t brag about my age, nor am I embarrassed by it. Same with my citizenship.
(3) I think too much is made of the two times that Paul made use of his Roman citizenship. Paul made use of his status as a Pharisee, as well. Don’t know that either of those was a bragging point for him. As he said, he bragged about the cross and NOTHING else. (Galatians 6:14)
(4) As to the issue of Christians from other countries, I feel that one sharply. My wife and kids are Argentine. I worship regularly in a group of people from Mexico, Japan, El Salvador, Uruguay, Germany, Costa Rica… and others that don’t pop into my head right now. The presence of the flag is not offensive to them, but far too often it’s accompanied by talk of “we’re so blessed to live in the greatest country in the world.” What are those people supposed to do? Debate the point? Deny their own homeland? Such remarks are divisive at best.
(5) I strongly agree with your point. The flag in the auditorium brings division while offering no enhancement to our worship.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
o.k. Jay
is the picture at the top of the post…
from your building…
🙂
i just gota ask
sense it is part of this discussion and as far as i know no one has seemed to take notice a said” that is just wrong”
ROLOL
RICH
P.S.
HOW DO WE SAY IRONY.
Jay,
Thank you for a balanced article.
While I have commented previously opposing the display of the flag, it has occurred to me that there is one circumstance where a church can display it with thanks to God. At the Sunset International Bible Institute, chapel takes place in “the flag room.” This is a room that proudly displays the flags of all the nations of the world where a graduate of the school has gone to preach the good news of the kingdom of God.
A church displaying the flags of the nations in which it does mission work would be totally appropriate from my point of view.
Jerry
Good points, Tim
Mixing the symbols of nation, political party, business corporation, charitable organization, or any other organization, with the symbols of Christianity make me uncomfortable. Mix the symbols and people began to mix the purposes and identities.
I am trying to figure out for what reason we would want to display the flag in a place where we worship other than to somehow spiritualize the service of our military people.
The fact that our military men and women are willing to die for me is something I am deeply grateful for. That, of course is not the issue.
Someone recently asked me what I would say if asked to display the flag in our auditorium to honor our service people. I asked why not just have a celebration for them somewhere other than when we’re gathered for corporate worship. I really want to know the answer to this. I am all for celebrating those who are so noble as to endanger themselves to protect others, but why do we desire to connect it our worship?
NBS, good point. Tell the congregation we are going to honor the military at 3pm Sunday afternoon, and see how many show up.
Essentially, the question is just how much syncretism is one willing to accept. It’s one thing to conflate Christian faith with any number of philosophic systems: what you wind up with is a neutered Christianistic self-referenced spiritualism. Conflate the state with religious faith, and one gets a version of the Germany after 1933. That experiment didn’t happen to turn out particularly well.
JamesBrett,
Whether the assembly space is holy is not the question. The whole holy/not holy dichotomy in worship discussions is not very helpful. Rather, the question is whether a national flag will further the purposes for which we assemble.
Price,
Obviously, where the church has no control over the decor of its meeting space, it does the best it can with what it has — provided there is nothing present so abhorrent that the church just can’t be there. But where the church has complete freedom in the matter, the church will want to design its space to best facilitate the reasons that it assembles in the space. The church as to ask, Why are we meeting here? And then, How can we design the space to facilitate our purposes?
My own church meets in a multi-use space. We sometimes play basketball or volleyball in that room. The preschool uses it as an indoor playground. But the tricycles and balls are put away when we assemble. They don’t facilitate our purpose in assembling.
Now, I’m not at all opposed to the assembly being used to discuss political issues. Not at all. We just need to pursue the politics of Jesus, not the politics of Rush or Obama. And for contemporary Americans, we find it very difficult to make that distinction. We are so very emotionally tied to our political views that they come to identify who we are in our own minds. “Republican” and “Democrat” are, for many of us, much more than political parties. They are who we are. And that makes it very hard to search out Jesus’ own politics. I struggle in that area myself.
Rich,
No flag flies over our building. Sometimes a flag is on the stage, but that’s for special occasions. It’s not there every Sunday.