A couple of days ago, I posted this question:
It’s a national holiday, the Fourth of July maybe, and a deeply respected, elderly member approaches you as a leader in your church. He’s a veteran, and he asks that the church prominently display an American flag in the church’s auditorium as a sign of appreciation for all the veterans who are church members and in gratitude for the sacrifice of the many soldiers that kept the nation free.
The church has never had a flag on its stage or outside or anywhere else before.
Do you –
// 1. Display the flag all the time?2. Display the flag only for patriotic holidays established by the US Congress?
3. Display the flag outdoors, on the church grounds, but not in the auditorium?
4. Kindly explain to the gentleman that he is a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven and that’s the only kingdom that should be celebrated in the church?
There are 43 comments as of this writing, and the discussion is still ongoing. And this was one of the most heated discussions I can recall — especially given that this isn’t really a classic conservative/progressive sort of dispute. Many of the comments have been excellent, and there are have been plenty of insights.
I’d like to suggest a particular approach to the question. You see, the best theology and best decision making comes by asking the right question. Ask the wrong question, and bad things happen. Ask the right question, and things that were once muddled and difficult become much clearer. Sometimes the answer becomes obvious. Other times, only the best direction for further inquiry becomes clear.
When it comes to the Christian assembly, the question isn’t “Does God authorize it?” That’s just not how the Bible teaches or approaches things. That assumes a mindset that is foreign to the scriptures. And it rarely leads to anything but a very subjective answer, because the scriptures just don’t speak in those terms when in comes to the New Testament church.
In the case of church assemblies, the correct question, I think, is: “Will this practice help fulfill the purpose of the assembly?”
Of course, the question assumes we know what the purpose of the assembly is. So let’s try to be more exact: “Will this practice help our members be transformed into the image of Christ?”
Now, that sounds profoundly theological and precise. And it really is profoundly theological. But it’s very imprecise. You see, the scriptures speak of Christ in many ways. And so we must go a little deeper. What is it about Christ that we are to shaped into? Are we to be like Jesus on his throne: Jesus the King? Are we to be like Jesus victorious over his enemies — even death: Jesus the Victor? Are we to be like Jesus the Judge of the Living and the Dead: Jesus the Judge? Are we be like Jesus the expert in the scriptures: Jesus the Scholar? These are all popular role models among us. But are they the right ones?
No, as we’ve covered here many times, every single time the scriptures hold Jesus up as role model or example for Christians, Jesus is put forward as One who Submits, the Crucified: Jesus the Suffering Servant.
The question isn’t whether Jesus was a Jewish or Roman patriot or a flag burner or flag waver. Jesus was a servant who submitted to the point of death for the sake of his enemies — even on the cross. That’s the image to which we are to be conformed.
(Rom 8:29 ESV) 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(Phi 2:4-8 ESV) 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
When you look at the assembly this way, your understanding of the Lord’s Supper changes. We remember the death of Jesus to be reminded to live the death of Jesus. We become what we eat — dead flesh and spilt blood.
The point of singing, praying, giving, and preaching also changes. No longer is the sermon about proving ourselves superior to the church down the road or celebrating our superior scholarship. A true gospel sermon is a call to submission for the sake of those who will not necessarily want or appreciate what we are doing for them. As we praise and celebrate God in song, we’re drawn toward him and his image, his Son. We encourage one another in song and sermon toward love and good works. And we serve each other by expressing our concern for their losses and needs, not only because they’re our friends, but because we’re united with them in the body of Christ.
Of course, our worship is therefore often celebrative, not only because Jesus gives us the victory, but because we’re privileged to share in his life of sacrifice and because there’s unspeakable joy in giving ourselves away for the sake of others.
Now, with that approach in mind, would placing an American flag in a church auditorium during the worship hour further the purpose of the assembly? Would it hinder the assembly? Or does it depend on the circumstances and, if so, how?
I’d ask the much respected, elderly member if showing our appreciation for his service to our country would be sufficient on Memorial Day and the weekend connected to the 4th of July. I’m sure he would be pleased that his brothers and sisters in Christ would acknowledge and honor those who died to set men free and be reminded how free indeed we truly are.
Unless the “big room” within the building at Main street and 5th avenue commonly known as the church building has now become the Holy of Holies where God chooses to reside, especially on Sunday mornings, then whatever respect you show this man inside would be the same as the respect you show him outside this supposed divine sanctuary.. Living in the Kingdom doesn’t mean in the auditorium at church…IMHO
whoops, woo oh, settle down, we are starting to look like,yes!
we are talking like a bunch of guys playing a serous game of football. just without the four letter words.
If
this is truly about how we feel?
then exercise our expressed thought with a tad of control through the spirit.
we keep it up there will of need’s. have to be a moderator….
i will use the ethical imperative for all of us.
be nice to each other.
as god in Christ was nice to us.
we don’t need to be right !
we can use community to talk our thoughts through.
now this is a joke and i am smiling right now.
soOOOO
listen to me !!!
those of us that know it all!
do not appreciate the comments of those of you,
THAT THINK YOU DO.
PAUL MADE COMMENTS LIKE THAT ALL THROUGH THE NEW TESTAMENT.
DIDN’T HE ????
HE WAS EMPHATIC ABOUT ONE IDEA AND EXERCISED IT.
WE’VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO,WHEN WRITING
DEFINE CHRISTIAN ETHICS WITH OUR USE OF WORDS.
BLESSINGS
NOW WHERE WAS I
OH YA
ABOUT HANGING THAT FLAG UPSIDE DOWN.
SORRY JUST COULDN’T HELP MY SELF!!!!
BLESSINGS RICH
The location of the assembly could matter. If the church is renting the local school auditorium, American Legion building, or city convention center, it would be inappropriate to take down their flags. Churches would not want to be rude to their hosts.
If the church owns the building, it’s a matter of opinion. I have been in churches that display the flags of all the countries in which it is involved in missionary work (including the USA). In such cases, the flags represent the congregation’s love for their neighbors. But if the congregation is a nationalistic, jingoistic, or ethnocentric church, it has deeper problems than merely displaying a flag.
Simply stated, it depends upon the attitude of those in attendance. No other circumstances are relevant.
Worship is dependent upon the spirit of the worshipper, not the decorations of the room.
Focussing on the Assembly:
Being changed into the servanthood of Christ is one aspect which answers a lot: Is it fitting to the way of the cross to carry a sword? What did Jesus say, when Peter wanted to defend Him? What did He say to Pilate concerning His Kingdom? The very way Christ lived among us is incompatible with the work of a soldier – or could we imagine that He would have done it?
There as another aspect in the assembly:
We worship the risen and gloryfied King – no other symbols than those in harmony with the Kingdom shall therefore be in the room. Note, first of all, it is about something that is being put into the room – most likely in a “prominent place”; that’s why it is inappropriate. Of corse the focus should be on our hearts, but what we see and do in worship also important (@ David: That’s why I cannot agree with your last statement).
OK; now addressing the elderly and respected brother …
We’d have to admit that there is a lack of teaching on this subject. So stepping up to this brother and declaring his error of being in the military in the first place is clearly out of place. Yet, it is so true. We, who are called to love our enemies, to pray for them and to bless them, cannot take up arms against them, nor celebrate those who did so.
I think we should explain the obvious: The Kindgom of God is not limited to the boundaries of any earthly nation. We assemble to give honor to the King, not to the world. Wars are not part of the Kingdom. That’s simple enough.
In a second step, we should rediscover the doctrines of nonresistance and separation and teach them thoruoghly so that none of our young men gets the idea of serving in the military ever again. Having done this, a generation from now no one would ask such a question again. Of course that’s a tiny wee bit idealistic 😉 But unless we teach what needs to be understood to deal with such issues, we’ll never deal with these in a proper way.
Alexander
We individually are Gods instrument of death many times.
Remember God asking what it that I hear in the back ground? Even wanted the animals destroyed along with the women and children. What a burden to put on those soldiers for God.
We don’t see death as God sees it.
How about causing a flood killing all on earth but a few souls,( Noah)
More blood has been shed for Gods causes than for anything else.
Even the angels can come to the rescue and kill.
Gods heroes and leaders in the Bible destroyed enemies, individuals and even nations. We teach our children those stories very young. David and Goliath, cut off his head, our hero!.
In the end, talk is cheap, but someone had (has) to swing the ax while looking an enemy in the face.
Tell it Alabama !! Even Jesus turned over a few tables and lashed out with a whip…Some things are worth standing up and fighting for instead of cowering in a corner….and complaining.
@ Alabama John
Have you ever thought about why david was not allowed to build the temple? Because he was a man of war and blood was on his hands. It was Salomo’s privilege to build it, whose name was peace and during his reign was peace. That’s a type, OK? The antitype is Christ. The temple is the church – so war and bloodshed cannot be blended into the Kingdom of God.
Ever noticed how Jesus said that in former times it was OK to hate your enemies, but now He declared we have to love them? This is one of the big differences between the OT and the NT.
Reformers like Luther commanded the peasants to be slaughtered. Zwingli fell in battle against Roman Catholics as a military chaplain. Under Calvin’s reign of terror dissenters were tortured and even burned at the stake. The Puritan Cromwell in the name of God devastated Ireland. What lovely fruit of Christian love! How very Christlike!
@ Price: So cleaning the temple with a whip is a justification to throw nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I have read the prayer of the military-chaplain that sent off the soldiers to this cruel task – it made me sick!
But even more important: God’s Kingdom is a reality not a mere theological hypothesis. And we are called to live a s citicens within this Kingdom. A local church is not the Kingdom itself, but should reflect this Kingdom which encompasses all Christians around the globe. It is “cross-national” – therefore taking up arms for one earthly nation is taking up arms against children of the Kindom on the other side of the border. Being a soldier therefore is taking sides against the Kingdom of God.
Displaying the flag of one nation in the church building is denying the reality God’s Kingdom.
Alexander
Cowering and complaing? You have no idea, Price!
Let me sum up one story from 1904, Sevastopol. During the Russian-Japanese wars, the Jesw had a hard time in Russia. People were gathering for a riot against them in Sevastopol. Peter Friesen, a Mennonite, was sick with fever, but God urged him to put on his coat and go to the market place. There he spoke to crowd and through God’s grace managed to send them home peacefully. Then he returned to his bed.
This is one of many examples of how evil can be overcome without violence from the book Coals of fire
It takes a lot of courage to do things Christ’s way, Price. We need the inner freedom to die on this path, we need faith. What you propose actually boils down to: “The Sermon on the Mount does not work, we hve to settle things in a more rational, practical way.” That’s not faith, Price, that’s human wisdom. If you insist on being a fool in God’s eyes, go ahead!
Alexander
I would reframe the question to
Would the practice help Christians encourage one another?
Abasnar,
I’m very happy you can freely believe and express as you do and live in peace as you choose. Those are rights and priviledges you have.
Next time you see a military man or woman who provided and is protecting your right to be as you are thank him or her.
That’s what God did. They were used for His purpose and rewarded for doing so. God loved them..
God loves peace and created the men necessary to achieve it.
A Christian’s rights or freedom are neither provided nor protected by the military. They are in the cross.
Alexander
Now, according to the Gospel: God sent Jesus to achieve peace; and He did not send the “Heavenly Marines” first to clear His path.
Do you notice how such views change the essence of the Gospel?
Alexander
Jesus could of called down ten thousand angels if he had wanted to, but, He was fulfilling a much higher mission.
The point is they existed and were available, and ready to come do what? Kiss everyone hurting our and their Lord and master? I think not.
The veterans cemetery is full of young men that gave their lives through the ages so you can have the freedom you have now.
God used many man to achieve that and its history is in agreement with the gospels.
Think of Hitler killing the Jews and soldiers rescuing them by killing and defeating the Germans for one small example.
Humans only achieve peace through strength and God knows that well and provided the strength so peace could abide.
God blesses those who keep the peace you have and the right for you to express your views.
Only thing I wouldn’t do here is sit defiantly and not stand and show respect when the National Anthem is being played down South.
Before any military action is done a prayer is always raised to God. It is sad one said made you sick. That bothers me. But, in this country you have that right paid for with blood of others.
Hebrews 11 speaks of those great saints of the past who…”conquered kingdoms…became mighty in war….and all these having gained approval through their faith….
Alabama John mentioned the 10,000 angels…I guess when God sends Angels to battle there is no consciencious objections allowed….. II Kings 19:34-35…(paraphrased) God says HE will DEFEND the city …and he sends an angel who kills 185,000 of the enemy….
Alexander your disparagement of our soldiers who fought and died protecting us from evil, foreign and domestic is within your rights. I assume that you also believe that all Policemen and ministers of evil as well… I hope that you and your family will never need to be protected by them and perhaps if you do you might refuse their help since you hold them in such contempt… but, they won’t stop in their duty to protect those who need protecting..
Of course the USA isn’t perfect…It isn’t the Kingdom as you mentioned…Neither was Israel perfect…by a long shot but God fought for them and sent them out into battle…and when the men backed down in fear…God sent the women to do it for them and to shame them…
The conversation about the flag seems to have become a discussion about pacifism. If a flag should not be present because pacifism is true, then simply state that as a view. Those who are not pacifists must debate the merits of a national flag on other grounds. The points arguing for and against pacifism are fairly standard. I do my best to avoid statements that I don’t have time to defend. Therefore, it is good reading all of your comments about the flag and pacifism, I know the ECF and Scripture, but I am not a pacifist. Hello everyone! Price, Alexander, and Jay I pray that you guys are doing well and look forward to watching you all continue to slug it out.
grace and peace, HG
Seems to me that it’s a matter of conscience. However, it seems those with the weaker faith are more in opposition to displaying it. Therefore, I think it would be a matter of not violating the conscience of the weaker brother and therefore in love, not making it a case for stumbling. If you have faith, have it to yourself alone. Happy is the man who does not condemn himself in the thing in which he allows. (I Cor. 6:12) Walking in love is also not doing something that violates another man’s conscience. (I Cor. 8:12)
One other thought about the “man” who comes to be honored for their service. We can do nothing of ourselves. And though we appreciate the service of our military…no victory is apart from the Lord. I was reading Genesis this morning and after Abraham (Abram) went to war with Chedorlaomer, he met Melchizedek. Melchizedek blessed Abram OF God Most High and then blessed God Most High who gave Abram’s enemies into his hand. Perhaps the man could be encouraged to remember the one who gives the strength and the victory. One thing I don’t want to do is to take confidence in our military. Because if God wants us to succeed, we will succeed. If he has discipline in mind, then no matter how great a military nothing can thwart what God has decided. You see that through out the scriptures all the time in regard to battles being fought. The GLORY was always the Lord’s.
Isaiah 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help And rely on horses, And trust in chariots because they are many And in horsemen because they are very strong, But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
Actually, I want to retract that statement about those being of “weaker faith” are more apt to be in opposition. I believe you can have a very deep and profound conviction that it is wrong. It wasn’t a fair comment.
I did not say the military or police are evil. There are just part ofthe system of the world which is under Satan’s bondage.
When you point to the veteran’s cemetary, you can’t only point to those who fought Hitler, but must also mention a number of unjust and unnecessary wars as well. The US in Word War II were not only saints.
And we are called to follow in Christ’s footsteps, thus we also won’t call for 10.000 angels. How much less for any earthly force or government.
Actually, “pacifism” does not really describe the position. Because I do believe that the sword is an order that is necessary in the world – but the Kindom is a different order wherin the swords are beaten into ploughshares. It’s q question where you belong and how to live accordingly. The best and most concise statement I know of that sums this up is the Schleitheim Confession of 1527, one of the founding documents of the Anabaptist movement still held to by conservative Anabaptists today. There Michael Sattler wrote concerning the sword (which encompasses everything from holding a government position to being a soldier):
Please take some time to conside the concepts of outside and within Christ’s perfection; the strict observance of the “pattern of Christ”, how He did things. Then you will understand why although e.g. the death penalty is just and an order ogf God, Christians will rather plead for mercy than for vengeance.
I feel the need to put the flag-questin into this context because it is not an isolated matter. When I read some of the more patriotic statements in the discussion I feel this is even more necessary, because in the latter ones i miss true Kingdom Convictions – they put us all back “outside of Christ’s perfection” into the world, saying basically: We are not from this world “spiritually”, but we have to live in and like the world practically. And I miss the concviction that carrying the cross in this world brings radical freedom and life – instead the trust is put in the sword, and this trust is reflected by honoring the flag (even pledging allegiance to it).
Just take the Kingdom as a reality we live in, and questions like the one we discuss now should become very clear.
Alexander
History Guy…Welcome back…
What’s up with the BUILDING ? Have we gone back to a sacred Temple ??
If it’s wrong to appreciate and recognize our military, our police force, our men and women in the FBI and CIA and Lord knows who else who’s duty it is to protect us from harm….in the building….then it’s wrong to appreciate and recognize them OUTSIDE of the building… There is no ‘pattern” of a BUILDING in the NT, except for the Temple…Surely we aren’t back there now ??
I guess if pacifism is your bent then it would be hard to show appreciation for anyone that is doing something that you are totally against… I can’t possible understand that but so be it… I just find it difficult to understand how one can be so against the protection of another that they find objectionable and yet still remain under and enjoy that protection…Only in America can you benefit and complain at the same time…
It seems only reasonable, down here in the South at least, that if someone does something for you that you benefit from then you should say “Thank You” once in a while. Being ungrateful doesn’t seem like a Kingdom characteristic.
Romans 13:4 puts the Government in a position to punish evil, even with the sword (death) as a Minister of God. If I opposed to this am I opposing God ??
SEEMS to me you guys have established the black and white of an issue .
as did.men through out history and still are to be sure.
all in the name of the fathers kingdom.
Paul put into practice a lot of gray. especially with those dysfunctional Corinthians and the lords supper.
should i acknowledge that god found favor with Cornelius.
so my friends where is the gray…the farther’ Spirit is always relevant to situations.
not ideals.to be sure we look to an ideal.
BUT EXACTLY WHAT IS OUR MISSION.
if Paul became all things to all men for the purpose of saving some.
does a practice of idealism,in some regard become the most practical way of talking and teaching people.
we all need each others help.
i do surly have a point of view 🙂 although i need not be right. i need faith hope and love established in my hart because of GODS GRACE. GODS CHURCH AND THEN USE MY GIFTS as Paul point out in eph 4.
not run into Rome and give the pope the finger
I guess you have no idea of what this phrase means to an Austrian. This was the common excuse of all Austrians who served in Hitler’s Wehrmacht, including our former president Kurt Waldheim whom the US put on the watch list. How about a nice discission about double standards (Hirosshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, …)?
Alexander
BTW, coming back to Michael Sattler’s statements from 1527. There is a fantastic movie about his life and the beginnings of the Anabaptist movement i would not withhold from you:
The Radicals This film shows that only one bad thread can spoil a whole cloth …
Alexander
“Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.” 1 Peter 2:17
As long as the flag is properly viewed as a symbol of the nation under whose laws we obediently live, why would it be in any way inappropriate? A flag of whatever nation displayed in a church in that nation would symbolize the same submission to the government that is anticipated among Christians in any nation.
If government is an agent of God, then service in that government as a Christian whose first loyalty is to Christ can be appropriately viewed as service to God. If Christians have the opportunity to bring light and salt into the midst of a government where there is darkness and decay, it seems they might help stem the corruption presently common in government. Do we simply surrender government to Satan because it presently is his stronghold, or do we take the battle there as well?
I believe we should display the flag at all times – maybe somewhere else in the auditorium other than on the stage – to communicate to people that we are people who demonstrate respect for God’s law by being obedient to civil law, i.e., that we “honor the king.”
We should not forget under which circumstances thes lines were written (the empereor was Nero, under which reign Peter was crucified and Paul beheaded). I don’t believe (and in fact that’s what the ECF said, too) that a Christian in the 1st century could have become a Roman official – knowing full well of all the idolatry and violence involved in such a business. So we cannot possibly draw conclusions from such verses that weren’t even remotely in the minds of the authors.
It is a different situation when a Roman oficer or magistrate came to Christ. Normally they stayed in that position as long as they were bound to it – and many of those died as martyrs because they from now on refused to use violence or to venerate the idols.
I see no difference between modern states anywhere and the Roman Empire.
Alexander
Several of the commenters continue to argue as though Alexander is an American. I’m pretty sure he has repeatedly stated on several occasions (and alluded to it here) that he is, in fact, from Austria. I have always appreciated Alexander’s point of view, because he gives me vision outside my normal view – his words very often allow me to see what I can appear like to an ‘outsider’ (nothing detrimental meant by that Alexander). I happen to disagree with the LEVEL to which he goes, but I think his point should be VERY well taken about considering ourselves Christians first. Jesus did make a remark about serving two masters and what divided allegiances would do for you. God isn’t an American God only, and Jesus wasn’t John Wayne. Maybe it’s just me, but the fervor of some of the comments here “score points” with me, not for the commenters, but for Alexander.
thanks Alix i am going to watch that RIGHT NOW.OH BOY!
BLESSINGS
RICH CONSTANT
JUST GOT IN FROM WORK
1:41 PM CALIF. USA.TIME
Brad, if I understand Alexander correctly, it matters not where he is from..He holds no allegiance with ANY country… But, if you’re living in America where people put their lives at risk to protect ALL people, regardless of national origin, then one might be compelled to show a little appreciation for those services rendered rather than cast dispersion on them for serving in that capacity… No one is suggesting that the USA is superior to the Kingdom of God…simply that as citizens living within the world that we are often called to participate in that world…in the case of Hitler then obviously one would not wish to participate…in the case of the USA, perhaps one still does not wish to participate and I respect that…I however do not accept that I must look down on those men and women who have served within their conscience and do very much appreciate watching my family live peaceable lives without fear of having their heads cut off for showing up on Sunday to worship… To the extent that a man or woman would like to become a representative of the people and work to affect change that promotes a quality of life for everyone and does not contradict the teachings of the Gospel then why should that person feel as if they are betraying the Kingdom of God ?? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Dwayne,
I entirely agree that the question can be reframed as “Would the practice help Christian encourage one another?” I would want to go deeper and ask, “Encourage in what sense?” If I encourage my brother to be a materialist, well, that’s not really the plan. I think the encouragement that is spoken of in 1 Cor 14 and Heb 10:24-26 is encouragement in the Christian graces, all to the ultimate end of being formed into the image of Jesus on the cross. And so, to me, we’re saying the same thing in two different ways.
Pingback: One In Jesus » Thought Question: A Flag in the Auditorium? Reflecting Some More
The idea that an American flag is objectionable to American citizens is very odd to me. Maybe it is the same flawed logic that makes a church building more holy than the houses individual Christians live in.
Royce, that is the point of the argument , are you a citizen of “God’s Kingdom” or America’s Kingdom. Do you pledge allegiance to God, or the country.
There are those who attend church in America who are not American citizens, how would you feel if churches flew the Mexican flag, or maybe a flag from Africa, or Cuba. all these countries have Christians living in them, believe it or not American Christians are not the only Christians.
Laymond,
The answer is “both”. If I were in Mexico or one of the African countries, or Cuba and met with believers who had their country flag displayed It wouldn’t bother me at all.
I know it isn’t popular to love America or to believe in individual exceptionalism. Political correctness has crept into our churches to the point that many preachers will not preach on certain Bible passages for fear they might offend someone.
The United States of America is still the preferred destination of people all across the globe who hope for a better life than they can have in their present country. With all of our flaws, mistakes, and even gross sins, America is still considered by tens of millions who dream of living here, the best place on earth to enjoy freedoms and opportunities unparalleled in other places.
I would think It would be very odd that a visiting Christian from Africa or Mexico, etc. would be offended that we love our homeland. That is especially true of those who desperately want it to be theirs as well.
We don’t have a flag on display in our building. I don’t think there would be many complaints if we did. By your reasoning Laymond, the preacher should not mention drunkenness, or prostitution, or homosexuality, or name-your-sin..someone might be offended! This is just silly.
What should offend people is our message about the accomplishments of Jesus for the ungodly. Maybe we are too concerned about someone’s sensitivities to preach the Christ who promised it would be offensive to those who are not believers.
By your reasoning Laymond, the preacher should not mention drunkenness, or prostitution, or homosexuality, or name-your-sin..someone might be offended! This is just silly.
I don’t see where my reasoning comes close to that, unless we pledge our allegiance to drunks, prostitutes, and homosexuals. but Royce you and I have never thought along the same lines. And don’t expect we will ever start.
Royce,
I’ve been noticing that those that promote patriotism have been playing the martyr card a lot lately. I find it terribly unappealing. To pretend that patriotism is not the overwhelmingly popular thing in our churches is ridiculous.
We recently had elder selections at our congregation. There was only one objection to any of the 10 candidates. The objection? The nominee chooses not to stand for the national anthem.
Patriotic fervor is still the norm, particularly in the South. Any objections to it are based on theology, not political correctness.
People aren’t offended that Christians love their homeland, anymore than they would have been offended if Abraham had had a passionate love for Ur. But when we make it a part of our religion, that should make all of us more than a bit uncomfortable.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
When we consider the decorations in the auditorium “part of our religion,” we should indeed be made uncomfortable.
*gasp* the Preacher’s wearing a white shirt, a red tie, and a blue jacket! He is rebelling against the kingdom of God! (or maybe he’s just a Cubs fan, more’s the pity)
An American flag in the auditorium can be a rueful confession of the context in which we live. That’s still a true story – we’re only pretending if we think that entering the auditorium somehow magically removes our nationality.
Or that the gospel was intended to do so.
The gospel instructs us not to use our nationality as a means of privilege or self-glorification – it doesn’t suggest that we excise it from our identity any more than we’re to excise our maleness or femaleness.
Assuming that a flag can only tell one story is a pitiful confession of lack of creativity.
Your words, Price, remind me of Hulk Hogan’s song:
And whenever I envision this retired wrestler, I think of Rambo, Captain America and Batman who all save our day and freedom …
Alexander
I once worshiped in a church for about 20 years that had on one side of the platform an American flag and on the other a Christian flag. If it was ever a problem it was kept well hidden.
I refuse to accept the idea that to be a patriot one must in some way be less loyal to Jesus or less committed to the community of the faithful.
I like patriots, especially Christian patriots.
It seems to me that some folks are always busy looking under every rock to find something to be offended by. Every American citizen has the absolute right to protest, or to even hate his country and say so.
There is an American flag flying outside my window as I type this post. It, among other things, is a reminder that American blood paid for the rights of knuckleheads too. Everyone has a right to be wrong in a free society.
This sort of petty stuff is pretty 5th grade in my view.
You refuse to accept a lot of things, Royce. No one’s surprised that this is among them 🙂
But that doesn’t change the fact that Paul used the word ‘skubala’ to describe all the stuff that patriots get excited about.
I’m helping put together an event over here in Atlanta for the Wounded Warriors… they all are Rambo, Captain America and/or Wonder Woman to me… Despite the fact that they might be missing an arm, or a leg, or an eye because they fought to keep me free…
Hoorah !!
No they didn’t.
They fought to keep their buddies alive.
Most soldiers join the military because it is the best option available to them after high school, and most soldiers fight because they love their battle buddies.
There hasn’t been a credible threat to US sovereignty over the 48 contiguous states since the Confederacy lost at Gettysburg. So please, stop tooting the horn that they’re fighting to keep us free. That was the theme of the Cold War, and even it rang hollow in light of Mutually Assured Destruction.
Please insert “military” between ‘credible’ and ‘threat’ in that comment.
The current economic situation poses a far more credible threat to US sovereignty than even the Cold War presented – but that’s a battle that won’t be won with bombs and bullets.
About the two flags, Royce, let’s clear up some facts that skipped your attention (due to a lack of information?):
You see, Royce, it’s not that simple, although ignorance might be a bliss sometimes … As to the Flag Code, you can read it in on the same Web-site: Should we have Flags in the Church?
If you display the US Flag, you have to display it in a way that puts Christ on a secondary level. And that is idolatry.
Alexander
One might guess, Alexander, that there have been some revisions to the flag code since NINETEEN FOURTY-TWO????
Especially since such a revision was posted in an earlier comment.
However, in matters of worldly glorification, why would the Jesus of Matt 10 and Php 2 care about earthly ideas of status and glorification?
Are you really saying that the one who told parables about taking the lowest place is going to get his pants in a bunch about where a flag is located???
I could not find the year 1942 in the link I referred to, but be it as it may. There is a difference between Jesus TAKING the lowest place and US giving anyone/anything else more glory than Him.
Alexander
(emphasis mine)
What if, as an intentional act of civil disobedience a la Peter and John’s preaching, we chose to “honor the king” by placing his flag in our auditorium, but honor our Christ more by placing the Christian flag in the place of highest honor?
I was once a little vexed, as a Canadian visiting the U.S., when a church—in all their attempts at being inclusive—were flying every national flag from their auditorium ceiling. I was vexed since their vexillologist thought it best to fly the Quebec provincial flag alongside the Canadian flag during our political turmoil of the late 90s. Now, I’m not sure whether or not this church hoped that my country would fracture into its various constituents, or whether they were just playing their cards at being prophetic (or as it turns out presumptuous). But no matter how you approach this subject, someone will be disappointed by it. Frankly, I’d have been less bothered in this case by just a simple American flag in this an American congregation.
Personally, though, I’m not comfortable with the seemingly false choice between either a confusion of the roles of church and state, or a severing of one from the other (as if they speak to completely different things (one spiritual, the other physical)). While agreeing that a flag in the church assembly is about as fitting as wearing a swimsuit to the Sunday gathering—I still worry that many of the reasons for not having a flag in church are just as bad as the ones for them—that we still don’t clearly and responsibly see how the church and its eternal viewpoint does speak to our temporal issues, including politics. In my view, there ought to be a place for both praise and criticism of our individual nations as Christians—and a flag could solemnly remind us of that responsibility to respond fittingly to our particular time and place, how ever that might be fleshed out—both in criticism and praise over various issues (whether it be military issues, economic, environmental, or what have you)
But my worry is that those who encourage a severe separation of all national symbols from the church assembly, as if this is a higher road against a tendency towards jingoism or some kind of theocracy, that they are perhaps just as rife with ironic contradictions in their allegiances to the kingdom. In fact it might be easier to be double-minded in this regard without the flag at church—praising God with our lips on Sunday and saluting our national flag on Saturday…
Nick asked “Are you really saying that the one who told parables about taking the lowest place is going to get his pants in a bunch about where a flag is located???”
Yes Nick, he always got his pants in a bunch, when his “Father” was dishonored .
it has yet to be shown that the arrangement of morally-neutral decorations in the auditorium can dishonor the One True God.
As a good friend of mine said today, “When Scripture says God looks at the heart and not at externals, what if we understood Him to mean our churches as well as ourselves?”
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Is there a lot of difference in selling doves for sacrifice, and selling patriotism by flying the flag, in God’s house. ?
Apples and oranges for so many reasons!
God’s house is the church, not the building.
The dove was a special provision in the law for the poor among God’s people (that’s how we know Joseph and Mary were poor). The sellers of doves in the Temple were taking advantage of those poor people to make a profit for themselves. There’s not even a way to compare what the dove-sellers were doing with hanging a piece of cloth in a gathering-place.
Nick, if it is just a piece of cloth, why bother?
Symbols, Nick, are never “morally neutral”.
That’s a common modern misconception, that we say: “Ah, it’s just a piece of cloth” – but burn this peace of cloth publicly, and you’ll be put in jail.
So the symbol conveys a message. And how symbols are displayed conveys a message, too. Therefore the Flag Code is quite significant, because here the US define how they want to be put first above all.
This has not changed since 1942, as is clear from this summary in Wikipedia
You might say: The symbols convey a message only to those who care about it. But that’s not true, because the message is defined by the author or owner of the symbol – as a help to understand (which is gettinmg more and more trampled underfoot): Men who cover their head in prayer or when speaking from God’s word dishonor their head – this is Christ. So many say today: “It’s about what is in my heart, not what is on my head.” But the head is a symbol of Christ’s headship, and He defined it, and He declares that He is being dishonored by neglecting the symbol.
Think again, Nick! Symbols reflect a reality, in fact they are a spiritual presence of what they stand for (just as the Bread and the Wine).
Alexander
Are you serious guys? Do you really think that if an American flag stands in the corner of the church building that it is somehow a rejection of the Lordship of Jesus? I could understand all the fuss if we are talking about a flag draped pulpit, or a flag banner over the Lord’s table, but really, just a flag is somehow a theological issue?
On July 3rd I sang three patriotic songs with several other men at our church. One one of the songs the congregation joined in. I didn’t hear a complaint. I doubt that anyone thought we were dishonoring God, since every song mentioned God, and one was in fact a prayer to Him. We didn’t have a flag. I wanted my twin grandsons to bear the colors in their Boy Scout uniforms, but they had other plans. (I’m sure anyone who would object to a flag in a church building would not want their kids to be Boy or Girl Scouts. They are taught some U.S. history and to love America.)
There is little doubt that some of those who object the loudest to such things know far more about college football, or the NBA, etc than about the Book that reveals the God they claim allegiance to. You are a very weak and immature Christian if your faith is shaken by the display of an American flag, in America, in a building filled with Americans.
The whole root of this question was mentioned by Nick. The building where you worship is not God’s dwelling. You are God’s dwelling. If you are looking for purity in the house of God, work at keeping yourself pure and encouraging your brothers and sisters to personal purity. What you do on Saturday night is just as important as what you do on Sunday morning in many ways.
“You are a very weak and immature Christian if your faith is shaken by the display of an American flag, in America, in a building filled with Americans.”
Royce, You are absolutly right, and believe it or not there are “immature Christians” sitting in your congregation. What was the conversation centered on after church was dismissed, your beautiful baritone voice or the sermon.
I believe Paul mentioned this as eating of sacrificed meat.
Why make a fellow Christian uncomfortable, when it is not necessary.
Just my opinion, but I would venture to say most of those who worship at the flagpole never fought in a war, and probably never served in the military. I have known many Christians who did serve and fight, many in my family, and I have yet to see one who requested a military funeral over a Christian burial.
I have seen very few who returned from the killing of war, and said “it was worth it”. Ask one your self if the war was worth “The collateral damage” it caused. I doubt you get many positive answers.
No I did not serve, I tried to, because both my older brothers fought in the “Korean Conflict” (I had a physical condition that deemed me unfit) As an impressionable 18 yr old I cried when I was turned down,
Both my brothers told me “You didn’t miss a thing” . They both had Christian burials.
I think it can be, and your typically condescending tone towards those that disagree with you does more to frustrate the conversation than to advance it.
I don’t by any means believe that James 4:4 is a prooftext that prohibits the display of the flag. As I said earlier, I believe that we can obey Romans 13 and honor the king without dishonoring our Christ. Does it require some civil disobedience to place the flag in its proper place? Absolutely.
Is there an inordinate amount of pride (precisely the poison against which James warns in this passage) wrapped up in our love of country? Often, there is: just ask Lee Greenwood, author of the greatest hymn to America in the last 100 years.
Laymond, I agree in large part with your last comment. As one who has served, and has many friends who’ve killed during their military service, I don’t see many of them demanding America-worship from their Christian community. In fact, it is precisely those friends who most clearly understand that the separation between church and state is, in large part, a protection of the church from the state – a protection from the temptation to wrap the cross in the flag and pop an Uncle Sam hat on the Lord Jesus.
I do love this country – the size of its failings are commensurate with the size of its dreams.
I don’t trust America, though – she’s a goddess like all the others.
I don’t think I have a problem with an appropriately humbled (not disgraced, but humbled) display of an American flag in a church setting. It can be an effective reminder of the context in which we live out our Christianity – a constant check against the separationist temptation of the Anabaptist tradition or the spiritualizating temptation of the Gnostic tradition.
In fact, I think I have more of a concern with those who proudly fly the American flag over their Christian homes. I think that, if I owned my own flagpole, I would run the white flag up every day to remind myself that I’m not in charge, and I’m not here to attack anyone.
Who is calling for “America worship”? I never have.
Nick, I don’t mean to be condescending but this statement is a doozey! “a protection from the temptation to wrap the cross in the flag and pop an Uncle Sam hat on the Lord Jesus.”
Do you seriously think that is accurate? It’s indeed funny how a simple question gets contorted to the extreme this one has.
Don’t want an American flag in church, don’t have it. If you do, go for it. Just don’t accuse those who do of idolatry without even knowing them.
Royce, you DESCRIBED America-worship. When a group of people gets together to sing hymns of praise to something greater and more powerful to they are… what else do you call it?
If singing hymns of praise to God is worship… singing hymns of praise to a nation is worship.
Calf rope! I give.
Nick….what song are you thinking of that might be sung that would be considered “worship” to the State ?? I agree that it would be highly improper to worship the USA but for the life of me I can’t imagine that anyone at your church thinking they were idol worshipers for singing the most common patriotic songs we’re all familiar with… It doesn’t matter if it’s in the assembly or a backyard bbq if it’s idol worship, right ?
Price, I would have a hard time finding a patriotic song that ISN’T America-Worship.
Certainly the ones included in most hymnals encourage America-Worship. If you can read the lyrics of My Country, ‘Tis of Thee and not see syncretism radiating from every syllable, you’ve been blinded by patriotism. If you don’t see the America the New Jerusalem come down from Heaven in America the Beautiful, it is because you’re just not listening.
I am Thankful To Be An American
I am thankful to be an American,
To live in the greatest land of all.
In a nation blessed, it’s the very best,
I can stand with my head up tall.
I am thankful to be an American,
To be born in a land that’s free.
I am thankful to God for allowing me to be,
An American.
America (My Country, ‘Tis of Thee)
Commonly referred to as America
by Rev. Samuel F. Smith
My country, ’tis of Thee,
Sweet Land of Liberty
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims’ pride,
From every mountain side
Let Freedom ring.
My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills,
My heart with rapture thrills
Like that above.
Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet Freedom’s song;
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.
Our fathers’ God to Thee,
Author of Liberty,
To thee we sing,
Long may our land be bright
With Freedom’s holy light,
Protect us by thy might
Great God, our King.
Our glorious Land to-day,
‘Neath Education’s sway,
Soars upward still.
Its hills of learning fair,
Whose bounties all may share,
Behold them everywhere
On vale and hill!
Thy safeguard, Liberty,
The school shall ever be,
Our Nation’s pride!
No tyrant hand shall smite,
While with encircling might
All here are taught the Right
With Truth allied.
Beneath Heaven’s gracious will
The stars of progress still
Our course do sway;
In unity sublime
To broader heights we climb,
Triumphant over Time,
God speeds our way!
Grand birthright of our sires,
Our altars and our fires
Keep we still pure!
Our starry flag unfurled,
The hope of all the world,
In peace and light impearled,
God hold secure!
America the Beautiful
O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!
O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassion’d stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness.
America! America!
God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.
O beautiful for heroes prov’d
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country lov’d,
And mercy more than life.
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.
Where are the US in this text? Under His feet!
Where does that leave us with our patriotic feelings?
Alexander
Taylor Swift-“The Best Day
Martina McBride-“In my daughters eyes”
Jamie O’neal-“Somebodys Hero”
Blake Shelton-“The Baby”
Randy Travis-“Angels”
Jimmy Dean-“I owe You”
All above songs have words of praise that could be taken as worship of mothers if you look at them with that slant of your eyes.
None of us would do such a thing though OR would we?
I’ll bet most of us have come pretty close haven’t we.
Look up the word worship.
Royce’s Calf rope! I’m guilty.!!!
Mothers are God-created, blessed, and worthy of praise.
Nations are not.
But yes, I’d probably be opposed to a permanent banner to mothers as well.
It blows me away how you guys can easily see how something like money can be an idol, but are just utterly blind to how a nation and, yes, a mother, can be an idol.
Nick,
Anything can be an idol as its in the eyes and mind of the beholder. In mans history about everything possible has been worshiped and made an idol and some, when they couldn’t think of anything else to worship made one called the UNKNOWN GOD.
I’ve said it before, in all churches of Christ around here a cross in a church building or on the property is banned just as much as a flag would be. Both are symbols.
Man is a joke to all the other creatures on earth as they are free from all that thinking and restrictions and sin.
They eat, drink, and play and sun themselves, no worries!
Good example for us to try sometimes.
Nick,
I really like your post and am starting to worship you!
What should we do about that?
One can hardly read Jeremiah without sensing his love for his country and the pain he felt for it’s collapse… Jesus walks into Jerusalem and Luke describes Him weeping over it… One can hardly assume that either elevated their love for their country above that of God… There is a certain incoherence about insisting that pride in one’s country is to elevate that appreciation to the point of worship… That’s just not a reasonable conclusion… Could it be, sure.. But, to judge as ungodly the heart of every person in a church that would sing patriotic songs and celebrate their country’s achievements as America Worship is just way beyond one’s ability to do….Pretty much all you can do is judge your own heart and if your conscience is offended by honoring those that have lost life and limb to provide the freedom you enjoy…then you should be faithful to your conscience …and allow those who consciences would be offended if they didn’t express their appreciation to enjoy the same level of freedom in Christ that you believe you have…
When Jews had love for Israel they had love for the land God chose to bless and dwell in. To things to this:
a) None of us does live in such a land with such promises
b) The nations stood always in stark contrast to Israel
c) God burned Jerusalem anyway and ended this earthly shadow of His Kingdom when the reality in Christ came
So, the love for Israel the past needs to be substituted NOT by love for any earthly nation someone is born in, but by the love for the Kingdom and its reflection in the church.
To be clear about this “judging”. No I don’t judge individuals, I just state that this patriotic behaviour in many American churches is wrong, because it stands in opposition to the proclamation ofthe Kingdom. Church leaders and teachers who fail to see and teach this, will receive their judgment according to Jas 3:1 – but as for the individual (misled) Christian their ignorance of this could be counted in their favor. Judging is God’s business.
Calling someting wrong however is a necessary prophetic ministry. Idolatry has nothing to do with freedom in Christ, and the way patritism is spelled out in the quoted texts deserves the label “idolatry”. The way the US flag demands the prominent place of honor to any other flag (even the Christian Flag) makes it an idol.
Even if you fail to see and understand this, Price. The earth is round, even if we experience it as flat. Or as Royce just ignores that such texts are an expression of worship.
Well, Price, if you pledge allgiance to the flag and I point out to you this passage from Eph 1:16-23 where all dominions and powers are under Christ’s feet, to what dusty, torn down and fading flag are you pledgng allegiance then? Yes, if all powers are put under Christ’s feet, then all flags are taken from their poles! He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords – even though ALL nations will gather in Harmageddon to fight this decree of Psalm 2 (this is true regardless of your eschatology).
Think about that: I see the US flag waving at the battlefied in Revelation, side by side with the Austrian flag and the flag of the European Union. To which of these flags that fight Christ (and they do that even today by passing laws that are nullifying God’s Laws) shall a Christian pledge his allegiance?
As soon as we pledge allegiance to the flag we pledge allegiance to the enemies of Christ.
Alexander
John,
The difference between an icon like the cross and an idol like symbols of rebellious powers and principalities is in their dedication.
An icon is a symbol created and used to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ.
An idol is, among other things, a symbol created to glorify some other power.
Yes, I know that in Alabama, as well as other geographical sections of the American brotherhood, depictions of the cross are verboten. I’m convinced that stance has far more to do with trying to set ourselves apart from “the denominations,” more than it has to do with idolatry. Still, I honor their desire to uphold the command to “flee from idolatry.”
Price,
I have absolutely no problem with honoring men and women who have shed blood to protect their friends and family. Like I said earlier, though, no US soldier in 150 years has shed blood to “provide the freedom [I] enjoy.” There has been no threat to US territorial sovereignty in the 48 contiguous states since 1864. The closest threat that has existed was in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Mutually Assured Destruction (or the X-Men, if the latest movie is to be believed 🙂 ), not the blood of patriots, saved the world in that case.
US soldiers have bled and died on battlefields around the world, mostly striving to protect the horizon – a proactive strategy that argues that battles are best fought on the other country’s soil. The threats against which those soldiers were philosophical, not real.
I hope you will give Alexander’s argument its due consideration. Again – as I’ve stated multiple times in the course of this discussion – I have no problem with displaying an American flag in a Christian setting, so long as it is displayed according to the Christian worldview, where the flags of all the nations are under the feet of the King of Kings.
So long as it is given primacy of place, it is displayed contrary to the testimony of the New Testament. Typically, this is an innocent error rather than an intentionally idolatrous one, but it is a dangerous error nonetheless because actions speak far louder than words to visitors about our priorities.
Royce,
Do a simple thought exercise with me. Replace the America language in those songs above with fitting Christian language.
Then, tell me into what genre of song you’d then classify them. If it isn’t worship songs, I’ll be very surprised indeed.
Directing the language of worship towards a power that currently exists in rebellion against God may not be inherently idolatrous, but it is certainly dangerous – which is the whole point of the warnings being offered here.
Since this conversation continues, let me throw something else into the mix. Isn’t there something telling about the existence of the whole flag code? So much of what is in there borders on the religious, definitely entering the realm of the superstitious.
Hand on heart. Flag can’t touch ground. Must be folded certain way. Must be disposed of in certain way. On and on.
Makes you wonder.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
What verb is typically used to describe unlawful treatment of the flag?
Desecration (also called desacralization or desanctification) is the act of depriving something of its sacred character, or the disrespectful or contemptuous treatment of that which is held to be sacred or holy by a group or individual.
I am appalled by people who fail to honor and revere their homeland, showing due respect for hard won peace and virtue amidst a world of evils and injustices. I am even more appalled at the kind of one-sided relativism that is blind to our nation’s part in these very same injustices—masking the unethical as the merely practical. Even worse, I hate our all-too-typical self exemption as individuals from our corporate responsibility in these evils. A sober Christian should not try to baptize a country, or to make them out to be un-savable (Jonah). Both approaches, in my view, are flawed. The U.S. is not the Rome of Nero, nor is my Canada some New Israel or ‘Christian country’.
But the question here is whether or not it is fitting to show such national honor in a Christian assembly. Again I find two extremes equally appalling—either flying the flag in church without seeing the contradiction (think of the Nazi flags in churches in Germany in some mid 1930s), or else you think of the church as so separate from such temporal affairs that again you don’t see the contradictions. I think both extremes were taken by Christians in Nazi Germany, and both aided in the ensuing disaster.
We are given a time and a place in history. As a Christian, I understand that my citizenship is in Heaven, but that means that I serve as faithfully as I can in my circumstance here and now. I don’t have dual citizenship (one on earth and one in heaven), but likewise I don’t turn my passport in at the baptistery! There is a time to be like Daniel or Joseph, there is a time to be a Jeremiah or John the Baptist.
This is how crazy I am! On the Sunday closest to Mother’s Day our church hosts a breakfast for our mothers. They are served by the young men in the congregation. Some years there is even a lesson with an emphasis on motherhood and the godly woman.
On that day, on purpose, we honor our mothers and the mothers in the congregation. We don’t worship them but we honor them.
When one of our high school kids accomplishes something pretty great they are recognized and treated to a round of applause.
And, one day a year, we as a Christian community, take about 10 or 15 minutes to celebrate the anniversary of our independence as a country and on or near Veterans Day we recognize those among us who have served. I like it that we do those things!! What a nut huh?
I also like it that we are using our baptistery almost every week, that scores of men and women are being transformed by the life of Jesus. I like it that I get to be a part of serving people in my community and around the world.
I like it that I worship with and serve alongside people who make much of Jesus, go for the down and out and the up and out with the gospel, feed and clothe the needy, and love America.
I think we all can agree that it is pretty amazing that Jay can post some topic that is so simple and it soon becomes a volcano of opinions, proof texts, history quotes, and even personal attacks. Maybe we should all look at ourselves and see what others see. Often it an’t pretty. (we, ourselves, and we means me too…) Using the fruit of the Spirit as a template I realize that I’m outside the lines far too often.
Please forgive me If I have offended you.
Royce
Royce,
Sounds like a moving forward toward the high calling and goal to me.
Congratulations!!!
Royce
So should we at our congregation take time to honor Mexico, Argentina, Japan, Germany, China, and all the other countries that are represented in our body. Maybe we could every Sunday spend 10 or 15 minutes honoring one of the countries in our mix.
We chose to do differently. We chose to honor the country that we’re all a part of and to do so every week. We’d rather that God not be ashamed to be called our God.
What nuts we are, right?
No Tim, you should do what you think you should do, even if that includes making a judgement that God is ashamed of the church I attend.
You are blessed to have international flavor in your congregation. God bless you.
Royce
Tim said “We chose to honor the country that we’re all a part of and to do so every week.”
Tim, I hope you were talking about a “Kingdom” and not a country. a country has borders, God’s Kingdom does not.
As we might recall the King of England ruled over many countries, but one kingdom.
Many times I have seen a person buried with a Bible in
their arm and a flag over the casket.
They don’t compete.
We choose loyalties to countries flags. I have seen many from other countries that couldn’t speak our language very good put on our countries uniforms and salute our flag.
Royce,
No judgment intended on your congregation; sorry that it sounded that way. (And I do see how it could have sounded that way)
‘Twas a reference to Hebrews 11.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Royce,
The argument isn’t over whether the flag is objectionable to Americans, but whether it furthers the purposes for which we assemble. Why do we assemble? Are we there to honor the USA? Not “Would honoring the USA be objectionable? … or unholy?” but is that why God called us together?
Royce,
The question is not whether we love our country. Or whether Cubans love there’s. We are Christians and we should be all about love. The question is whether having a flag in the assembly space, every Sunday, furthers the purposes for which we assemble.
Nick,
The purpose of the assembly is not to view morally neutral decorations. That’s not the test. I think Harry Potter is morally neutral, but I’m not sure I want to hang 20′ tall pictures of Hermione and Ron in my church’s auditorium! Why are we meeting? How can we design our spaces in ways that best facilitate those purposes?
Jay,
Oh, I fully admit that the morally-neutral decoration argument was not terribly strong (although it has its merits- we don’t usually ask how other decorations we use help fulfill the purpose of the assembly- we just get some fake flowers, talk to a good upholsterer, etc)
BUT- if one of the purposes of our assembling is to show the world that the world Jesus has triumphed over the powers, without being crude or shameful, what better way to do it than to display the American flag in a position designed to show its defeat, its inferiority to the Messiah?
“Show the world that the LORD Jesus has triumphed over the powers….”
Stupid thumbs, trying to comment via phone.
Jay, Of course we are gathered to worship, remember the Lord’s sacrificial death, to encourage one another, etc. And, no, a flag does not further the purpose for which we assemble. Neither would it be a sure sign that the congregation was God denying idolaters if there was flag as some of the comments have suggested. I have not suggested that any church should have a flag year round.
On the one day of the year when some churches honor their Veterans other churches should burn an American flag, just to show their loyalty to Jesus, to absurd, crude and shameful to be funny huh?
Each of us will give an accounting to the Lord. I take great comfort in that fact.
Nick,
Hanging the American flag beneath the cross or a Christian flag could well be a powerful teaching device. I’d be interested to know if anyone has ever tried!
Regarding the design of our auditoriums, actually, over the centuries, a great deal of thought has gone into such designs. Of course, sometimes we just design out of habit and convention, but it’s a study in itself.
In many Catholic and Anglican churches, the pulpit is placed to the side, off center, in order to focus on the Eucharist, symbolic of Christ, rather than the preacher. Odd, isn’t it, that many Protestant churches moved the pulpit to the center? (We don’t have a pulpit.)
At one time, my church had about 3 dozen flags around the auditorium, each representing a nationality present in the assembly or a mission point supported by the church. It was designed to communicate the worldwide scope of the Kingdom as well as the worldwide impact of our congregation — to encourage the members to participate in our international ministry to University of Alabama students and in foreign missions.
I think a lot of churches use their spaces in the same way. Everything says something, whether we mean for it to or not. Even the placement of the pulpit.
Old Glory, became a battle flag flying over a battlefield where American brothers were fighting and killing one another.
I do believe the Christian flag was designed for the same purpose, to fly over a battlefield, where Gods creation was killing each other. It was designed to let those on the battlefield know that this bunch of killers were Christian, and I suppose to point out to God who’s side he was on.
Flags don’t have a good history.
I don’t believe it would be improper to have a Christian Flag in church, as long as we acknowledge the battle it represents is spiritual and not physical, saving and not killing. Just my opinion.
The origin and meaning of the Christian flag: The Christian Flag is a flag designed in the early 20th century to represent all of Christianity and Christendom, and has been most popular among Christian churches in North America, Africa and Latin America. The flag has a white field, with a red Latin cross inside a blue canton. The shade of red on the cross symbolizes the blood Jesus shed on Calvary.The blue represents the waters of baptism as well as the faithfulness of Jesus, who was obedient unto death. The white represents Jesus’ purity. In conventional vexillology, a white flag is linked to surrender, a reference to the Biblical description Jesus’ non-violence and surrender to God’s will.The dimensions of the flag and canton have no official specifications. (wikipedia.com)
Old Glory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Glory
The American flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_US_Flag
Royce, you need to go back in history just a little farther .
Eusebius’ description of the labarum
Constantine’s labarum, with a wreathed Chi Rho from an antique silver medal
“A Description of the Standard of the Cross, which the Romans now call the Labarum.” “Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. On the top of the whole was fixed a wreath of gold and precious stones; and within this, the symbol of the Saviour’s name, two letters indicating the name of Christ by means of its initial characters, the letter P being intersected by X in its centre: and these letters the emperor was in the habit of wearing on his helmet at a later period. From the cross-bar of the spear was suspended a cloth, a royal piece, covered with a profuse embroidery of most brilliant precious stones; and which, being also richly interlaced with gold, presented an indescribable degree of beauty to the beholder. This banner was of a square form, and the upright staff, whose lower section was of great length, of the pious emperor and his children on its upper part, beneath the trophy of the cross, and immediately above the embroidered banner.”
“The emperor constantly made use of this sign of salvation as a safeguard against every adverse and hostile power, and commanded that others similar to it should be carried at the head of all his armies.”[
Royce, one of, maybe even the most noted picture of the American flag is that of the American Marines raising it over Iwo Jima in WWll . another battlefield, another killing field.
The flag was intended to represent American military power from the time George Washington (who was then head of the Continental Army), George Ross (Betsy’s late husband’s uncle), and Robert Morris (a wealthy land owner). brought the plans to Betsy .
As their name suggests, evangelicals have long placed proclamation of the word front-and-center in their priorities. The centrality of the speaking area reflects that.
I fully agree that our arrangement reflects our priorities, often more clearly and accurately than our mission statements.