Dear readers,
Some of the readers have requested a post on the Lord’s Day to accommodate a discussion that’s been going on under the Christmas on Sunday post of a few days ago. (It’s really quite a good conversation.) I don’t plan to participate, though. Not enough time. Other things I’d rather write about in the very limited time I have.
If you’re interested, I covered this topic in some depth a while back in The Lord’s Supper: The First Day, just as food for thought.
That post was followed with the following series.
The Lord’s Supper: Reaching Some Conclusions, Part 1
The Lord’s Supper: Reaching Some Conclusions, Part 2
The Lord’s Supper: Reaching Some Conclusions, Part 3
HG wrote:
HistoryGuy, on December 2nd, 2011 at 6:13 pm Said:
Grizz,
Thank you for your response on December 2nd, 2011 at 11:17 am. Perhaps Jay will open a “Lord’s Day” thread. I think we could learn more from each other by taking one point at a time. Yet, I agree with you that we should not to highjack the thread, unless Jay says it’s okay. Regardless of whether or not we continue the conversation (though I want to), I must point out that, somehow, your response included statements that I NOT make. Please allow me to point out these issues, though I will refrain, for the moment, from further defending my position or answering your questions.
(1) I never said the Bible explicitly states we are commanded to gather on Sunday or any day. In my post – December 1st, 2011 at 1:03 am – 2nd paragraph I said “The scriptures reveal an explicit change from Sabbath to Sunday – comma – emphasize the “the Lord’s Day – 1st day of the week – Sunday” – comma – and is confirmed by church history. In the 4th paragraph I said “the Lord bound it [Sunday] on the apostles, who taught [it to] the 1st Christians, who passed it on, which is why there is such attention given to it [Sunday] in Scripture and the early church [history]. It is in scripture, just not the way that you seem to think it should be….” – end quote. On December 1st, 2011 at 11:06 pm I reaffirmed what I said and became even clearer with a summary sentence, which included that Christians gathered daily, and then “laying out 4 affirmations and [the major] 1 concern.” I then laid out an implicit defense with the cumulative points. On December 1st, 2011 at 11:15 pm, 5th paragraph, I did say the Sabbath day was both explicitly and implicitly removed in scripture.
(2) I don’t use the infamous CENI, and never said I do. Scholars from all ages and hermeneutics agree that there are explicit and implicit teachings in the Bible, and such is not reliant on CENI.
(3) I did answer you about Paul and what he meant in Romans 14:5-6, even Col. 2:16-17, about special days. I then followed it with scholars from the 3rd-21st centuries who utilize multiple hermeneutics (not CENI) and conclude that the days are of the Law and not Christian doctrine, such as Sunday. I am trying to make sure you see that I answered it, not give a response. You, know my response on this issue and other things you said would include a lot more information (ha ha ha).
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You asked many questions and made many statements in your response December 2nd, 2011 at 11:17 am. I would love to respond to them and pray that Jay will give us the green light. Please accept the 3 points in this post as a clarification of what I said and did not say. I don’t mind disagreement, as long as folks are clear about my words and position.
HG,
I welcome your further comments here.
Blessings,
Grizz
Jay and Grizz,
I spent some time reading your links and a few comments, and I did not realize (or I forgot) all the information already on this site about the topic. You have good summaries of Biblical and historical evidence as well as excellent theological considerations put forth by those such as Dr. John Mark Hicks. With the exception of focusing on the Lord’s Day of Rev 1:10, answering a few specific questions asked of me by Grizz, or flushing out some finer points, there is not a lot more evidence that I can offer. I do feel that reading your Lord’s Supper posts helped me to see what I am failing to communicate. I’ll post to Grizz below and finish up the response on Saturday, as it has been a long day.
Grizz,
My original post started with a concern for Christians who diminish the Sunday assembly. The discussion about Eucharist frequency, life of worship, and daily gathering is worth having, but it is a tangent from my concern, which is why I tried to avoid them, and will continue to do so.
When we consider the evidence, such as the (1) date of the Scriptures [gospels, Paul, Acts, etc] (2) date of the stories in those Scriptures (3) day of the resurrection in Scripture (4) day of the post resurrection appearances in Scripture (4) day of post resurrection communion between Christ and his people in Scripture (5) day of the beginning of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in Scripture (6) day when Christian rituals and a single day are specifically mentioned in Scripture (7) day Christians in Troas, Corinth, and Galatia were known to [at least] assemble (8) day given in historical testimony of Patristic Christians, what do we see? We see from Scripture and the earliest Christians the clear centrality (i.e. focus, attention, inherency) of Sunday within Christianity, its worship, and its connection to Christ and his work.
My statements have not been about exclusivity of Christian rituals and a specific day (though I have my views), nor have they denied daily praise and gathering. Rather, I have been demonstrating that Christians in the Scriptures and the earliest centuries would not have diminished the Sunday assembly. Yes, generalities are given at times, but while some Christians would gather more than others, none of them would freely miss the Sunday assembly. Sunday is always present in items #1-8.
My concern is the Christocentric connection with Sunday IN Christianity and the revolutionary change of the New Covenant and the benefits upon its people, not some legalistic perspective where people go to church or hell because God made a law. If Sunday has no more meaning than any other day, why list it over and over again in Scripture? Why did the early church of vast regions, preferences, and languages consider Sunday to be special, even more special than the Sabbath? When I consider these questions and others like them, I conclude from the evidence that early Christians gathered on Sunday out of theological considerations and a sense of joy and connection to Christ, because they were taught such things by the apostles.
Historical Evidence vs. Scripture vs. Interpretation:
Historical evidence is not equal to Scripture, but evidence provides insight to make informed decisions. You and I are disputing over an interpretation of Scripture and interpretational authority. Since the testimony of historical evidence is virtually unanimous about Sunday, and this is also true for the Greek phrase used in Rev. 1:10 for Lord’s Day, you must provide evidence as to why you, 21 centuries later, reject their virtually unanimous testimony (and the modern commentators that agree with them). Essentially, you are challenging the orthodox and heretical church of the first few centuries on this point since they all agree. Certain parts of the Didache are dated to different time periods. I am not aware of any scholar who agrees with your view on Pliny the Younger; a citizen accused some Christians of cannibalism, which Pliny found to be false and after torturing them reported to Trajan a fairly accurate testimony. I will respond to the rest of your questions later because I don’t want too much going at once. – I want to hear your thoughts –
What is your exegesis of Romans 14:5-6, Col.2:16-17, Acts 15:28-29; Gal. 4:9-10 and supporting evidence/scholars to conclude that Sunday IS included among the “days” of which Paul is speaking?
Grizz,
I have not seen you posting anywhere on the forum in over week, which is odd. I pray that you are doing well and look forward to seeing you back on the forum when time permits.