The Fork in the Road: The Man or the Plan, Part 12 (Summary So Far)

We’ve been talking about the nature of our faith. Why does Paul focus on faith and love as the essence of Christianity — even saying that nothing else counts for anything?

(Gal 5:6 ESV) 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

“Only” means only. Only faith (in Jesus) and love (for our neighbors) count in God’s eyes.

This statement is so different from how we in the Churches of Christ ordinarily think of our salvation that we just ignore it. We argue that “works” is the Law of Moses, so lots of things count other than faith and love. But that’s plainly not what Paul said. He said “only.”

Here the gopher wood argument actually applies. Noah made the ark of gopher wood, not gopher wood plus whatever else tradition told him. “Only” means only.

Now, we’ve seen one reason that what Paul says makes sense is that faith and love are two essential characteristics of God, and the Kingdom is all about our being restored to the image of God. Jesus is the image of God already, and so to be like Jesus is to be like God. To be restored to God’s image is to have faith and to love. Indeed, faith in Jesus opens our hearts to God’s transforming work in us, through the Spirit, to help us become all the more like him.

We are “new creations.”

(Gal 6:14-15 ESV) 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

(2Co 5:17 ESV) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

“Creation” is a reference back to Genesis 1 — God is restoring us to the original plan. And so Christianity is all about restoring us to what we were always meant to be.

And like learning to ride a bicycle. When we first try to live this way, it feels unnatural, even dangerous. It’s seems so wrong that we trust our wisdom for a better way. We want to ride the bike with our feet on the ground. We want someone to hold the bike. We want training wheels. But over time, with practice, our reflexes and muscles retrain themselves, and it becomes as easy as … riding a bike! Not always — and bike riding isn’t always easy either. But it can become natural, second nature. Living like Jesus is indeed our second nature.

Now, this means that we’re saved by faith to live lives of faith. It’s from faith to faith.

(Rom 1:17 NAS) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

It doesn’t transition from faith to faith+. It’s just faith. Faith/faithfulness gets us in and faith/faithfulness keeps us in. It’s just a beautiful, simple, symmetry. And faith/faithfulness leads us to love, because that’s the nature of Jesus and of God. You see, faithfulness is all about becoming and being like God — being restored to their image.

As is always the case in such discussions, we have to exclude some errors —

* “Faithfulness” is a condition of the heart, not a condition of behavior. A bedridden, infirm believer can be faithful even though the believer can’t go to church or do good works. We are faithful; we don’t do faithful.

(Gal 5:22-23 ESV) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

“Faithfulness” translates pistis, the same word Paul had just used dozens of times to mean “faith.” And here it’s plainly a virtue, a quality of one’s heart, not specific actions.

The faithfulness element of “faith” is very similar to repentance. It’s a decision to change loyalties, away from idols and Caesar and self, to God and Jesus — a decision that leads to a change in heart and mind — empowered by the Spirit. And this decision opens our hearts and minds to God working in us through the Spirit. Rather than resisting the Spirit, we submit and yield to the Spirit’s work as the Spirit re-creates us in the image of God.

* Faith/faithfulness is contrasted with “work,” not because they are polar opposites, that is, not because all that is not faith/faithfulness is a work, but because work isn’t the same thing as faith/faithfulness. Neither is algebra, and therefore we’re not saved by algebra either. God saves us through faith/faithfulness, and therefore through nothing else, be it works of the Law of Moses or works of the Law of the 20th Century Churches of Christ or whatever. It’s not that the Torah was wicked (as Paul so often says). It’s just that the Torah isn’t faith/faithfulness.

One consequence of salvation through faith/faithfulness is that, unlike obedience to the Torah, it’s not necessary to live exactly in accordance with a book of rules, such as the Law of Moses. This is simply because the Law isn’t faith/faithfulness.

* But, of course, “faithfulness” implies that there is something to be faithful to. God is faithful to his covenant with Abraham, now extended to the Gentiles. Jesus is faithful to the same covenant, paying the price necessary for us to receive forgiveness and enter the Kingdom. We are called to be faithful to the covenant, too. And that means that we must —

(Eph 5:1-2 ESV)  Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(John 13:34 ESV)  34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

(Mat 5:44-48 ESV) 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Ultimately, therefore, faith works itself through love for others —

(Mat 7:12 ESV)  12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

(Gal 5:13-14 ESV) 3 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.  14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

(Rom 13:8-10 ESV)  8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.  9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We want to run from the idea, but love fulfills (fills up) the law. It’s the “whole law.” It’s what required to be faithful.

Of course, one (of several) reasons we have faith in Jesus, rather than some other kind of faith, is that Jesus is the image of God. Jesus is God’s self-revelation, his word. If we reject Jesus, we reject God. There is no having God without Jesus.

Moreover, we become like what we worship. Worship wealth, and you begin to see the world in terms of dollars and exchanges. You measure relationships by what’s in for you. Worship sex, and you being to see people as objects to be enjoyed or ignored based on what pleasures you can get from them. Worship Jesus — truly worship Jesus — and you see the world as God’s broken creation to be sacrificially served and restored to God’s original design and purposes.

But this shows us how far removed we can get from true worship. Rather than worshipping God to become more like him, we worship God in hopes of pleasing him and earning his praise for getting the rules right. We beg for forgiveness for errors in worship four or five times per worship service, because we so fear angering a testy, harsh God. And so we become testy and harsh.

We really do sometimes make the Plan of Salvation into an idol. We prove this when we preach more about the Plan than the Man. We prove this when we beg for lessons about the Plan rather than the Man. And we prove this when we seek comfort in our salvation because of our knowledge of the Plan, even when we know next to nothing about the Man. And when we worship the Plan, we become like the Plan — carrying around spiritual clipboards filled with checklists, judging others and ourselves by how well we’ve marked off each item on the list.

But if we were to actually worship the Man and take the time to really know him and his faith/faithfulness and his love, we’d become more like him. We’d eat with sinners. We’d offer God’s forgiveness generously and abundantly. We’d surrender ourselves. We’d empty ourselves.

Now, I’m getting to baptism (eventually). But I thought this might be more important. You see, the attitude that says: I can’t judge your understanding of Jesus or his words until I’ve learned what you think about baptism is a heart transformed by a Plan rather than a Man. It’s fair to ask my views on baptism. It is. And I’ll get there. But the lesson cannot begin with baptism. It has to start with Jesus and God. And until we get a grasp of Jesus and God, we aren’t qualified to read the baptism passages.

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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37 Responses to The Fork in the Road: The Man or the Plan, Part 12 (Summary So Far)

  1. Royce Ogle says:

    True faith results in faithfulness, keeps believing, and loves God and his creatures. How do so many stumble over this simple concept?

    I thank God for your love and faithfulness to Jesus.

    Royce

  2. Ray says:

    I really think your last three paragraphs nail it, your conclusion reveals the weakness of the plan; because "The Plan" is emphasized, over emphasized, having become more important than the work of redemption brought about by God through Jesus.

    In a similar vein, I am wondering if this is an age old debate between Universals versus Particulars. The problem with that argument is that it wants the person to choose either Universals or choose Particulars. It seems proper to conclude that God is concerned with both. It is humanity that has the problem determining which is more important, what we don't seem to understand is that they are of equal weight. One without the other is pointless.

    Take for example, James (James 2.26): "Faith without works is dead". Faith is the universal, but the universal without the particular, in this case "works" is irrelevant, because the disciple needs both.

    Take as another example, Paul in 1 Corinthians 13.1-3, love is the universal, and all the described actions are the particulars. Even Paul demands that the disciple have both the universals and the particulars in order to be a mature disciple, because he never argues for the disciple to stop doing the particulars, he just argues do the particulars through the universal of love.

    I submit that since, we are discussing "The Man or The Plan", we keep in mind that:
    The Man is the Universal;
    The Plan is the Particular;
    Both are important, but for different, yet unified reasons.

    Jay, keep up the good work.

  3. Price says:

    Faith, empowered by and in submission to, the Spirit, and His varying distribution of Fruit, will result in a life enjoyed by the person and pleasing to God…Great post…

  4. Very well said, Ray. I like your summary.

    Jay, I've enjoyed this string of posts. Thank you so much for all you have contributed.

  5. Grizz says:

    Jay,

    The only issue I would take with this post is that you open with an exaggeration. You see faith and only next to one another in Galatians and your passion for balance (a very good thing) gets overbalanced and leans towards only faith and nothing else. But that is NOT what Paul wrote.

    The phrase is "but only faith WORKING THROUGH LOVE."

    You kind of tack something on about that afterwards, but your 'gopher wood' argument is a complete bust. And it is when either side becomes imbalanced, even for a moment, that the discussion usually breaks down – at least in my 50 years of experience. Let's let Paul tell us what to say, and not just overemphasize the part we like to hear or say, okay?

    Paul did not say "only faith" and leave it there.
    Paul did not say "only working" and leave it there.
    Paul did not say "only love" and leave it there.
    Paul DID say "only faith working through love" is what matters.

    If he had needed an editor, the Holy Spirit would have done just fine. It is not our place to edit. It is our place to learn..

    You've really done well up to this point, at least in those articles I have read, but I have to say that this was not your best effort, certainly. Perhaps the desire to get done overwhelmed the desire to say it well. I don't know. I just know that the imbalance of the opening was glaring for me.

    I sometimes wonder if we haven't gotten so wrapped up in making Paul our hero that we've lost sight of Jesus' numerous examples of how to invite people to follow and what is required or not at that point. We lose the Lord who made the tree by focusing on the leaves hanging from the branches. It just doesn't have to be that hard.

    See Jesus.
    Hear Jesus.
    Seek to understand Jesus.
    Count the cost in order to make a good decisipon whether or not to follow Jesus.
    Be faithful to your decision.

    Not the five steps grandpa taught, exactly, but certainly the five steps John and his cousin taught and modelled.

    Blessings,

    Grizz

  6. Alabama John says:

    Grizz,

    I think you would of liked talking and discussing with those I knew that only had the book of John.

    I'll never forget their love of God positions and how they felt about Jesus.

    Books of LAWS? Naw, Book of Love, YES!

    Afraid of the judgment and hereafter? naw, Looked forward to eternity. YES!

  7. Royce Ogle says:

    Grizz,

    What about the 'one step" solution Jesus gave to Nicodemus about his problem?

    Why oh why is it so difficult to get grown people to understand that true biblical faith always produces works?

    Royce

  8. laymond says:

    Jay's words "We’ve been talking about the nature of our faith. Why does Paul focus on faith and love as the essence of Christianity — even saying that nothing else counts for anything?"

    (Gal 5:6 ESV) 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

    “Only” means only. Only faith (in Jesus) and love (for our neighbors) count in God’s eyes.

    This statement is so different from how we in the Churches of Christ ordinarily think of our salvation that we just ignore it. We argue that “works” is the Law of Moses, so lots of things count other than faith and love. But that’s plainly not what Paul said. He said “only.”
    " only faith working through love" If I were saying this I might switch two words, -"only love working through faith".
    1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

    After reading this, how can we say, Paul said (only faith, counts in God's eyes)
    Without works how will we express our love and faith?

  9. Price says:

    Laymond… Is Love a fruit of the Spirit or of man ?? If it is of the Spirit then how could any man take credit for something to which he is empowered by a gift of grace…??

    What is it with this die on the mountain assumption that man has to HELP God do anything ?? Have you not read the book of Job…?? What are any of us qualified to help Him do ?? What is He reliant upon us for ?? We are TOTALLY dependant upon Him…He needs us to do nothing for Him.. He doesn't NEED our praise, our worship…anything…He is sufficient within Himself…All we have to do is accept in our mind that He truly is our creator, our savior, and He will save you…What part of salvation would you rather have yourself involved in than He ??

  10. Well … I still don't buy the gopher-wood-only argument … at least until there's a manuscript discovered that survived the flood and has the word "only" after "gopher wood!" : )

  11. rey says:

    “'Only' means only. Only faith (in Jesus) and love (for our neighbors) count in God’s eyes."

    One obvious flaw that conservatives will not hesitate to pounce on in your argument is that it requires the ESV.

    KJV of Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

    Where's the "only"?

    NKJV "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." — no only

    NASB "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." — no only

    Back to the drawing board.

  12. rey says:

    "It doesn’t transition from faith to faith+."

    Again, here is where taking heed to Paul's own diatribe against inerrancy would do you well: the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. The letter will confuse you into hell if you are this Phariseeic on it. It doesn't transition from faith to faith+? But it has to, because faith without works is dead! You've fallen into the same trap as the conservatives, relying on the letter rather than the Spirit.

  13. guy pulner says:

    The "only" in Gal 5:6 is not in every translation.

  14. abasnar says:

    And not in the Greek either. May the the same phenomenon as in Rom 3:28 where Luther added an "only" trying to myke "his" point – but was it God's point, too?

    I once made a list of "ands" (that are defibnitely in Greek):
    Believing and confessing Christ as Lord
    Confessing Chrsit as Lord and bowing your knees
    Justification by works, not by faith alone (here the alone is in the Greek)
    Faith and baptism
    and some others …

    To ad an "only" to faith is probably not what God would approve.

    Alexander

  15. laymond says:

    Price, I want to see how things turn out, when (if you are married) you tell your wife and family, "I love you but I really don't need you" Is that what you are saying God is telling man ?
    No we need God, and God needs us. If God does not need us, he does not love us.

  16. Price says:

    Keith…isn't the story of Nadab and Abihu an example of not sticking to specific instructions ?? Didn't they offer "strange" fire and paid the price?? It wasn't because of silence as some suggest, it was because they ignored a specific instruction…Al Maxey has a great new article about that sort of thing on Wineskins…He compares silence with specificity from a biblical perspective..

    Laymond…think that through Brother…You're suggesting that God has a deficiency…I doubt it…I state again…He doesn't NEED us…We NEED Him…

    Perhaps it would be good to put things in proper perspective. Read Job chapters 38 and 39 and 40 down to verse 14…Where God, having finished putting Job in his place tells him that if he, Job, can do any of the mighty works just listed that "Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you."

  17. laymond says:

    Price, I am beginning to understand why you and Royce, and others think the way you do about work.
    If I thought my works here on earth were worthless, It might be hard for me to put my gloves on every day to.
    And if I were told every day I was worthless, to the family I might just leave. I have seen many children, kids who are treated just in that manner at home, and they can't wait to leave.
    Price I am truly sorry you feel worthless to God, but you are really not, instead you are priceless. ( I didn't catch the irony until I read it, Price is priceless) 🙂

  18. abasnar says:

    What about the ‘one step” solution Jesus gave to Nicodemus about his problem?

    There is no "one-step-solution", not even in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus:

    1st: Being born of water and Spirit is more than just "one" "ingredient" (John 3:5)
    2nd: Faith (Present tense, ongoing) is another "ingredient" (John 3:15-16)
    3rd: Doing what is true (in the power of God) is another "ingredient" (John 3:21)

    So, to say it is just "one step" is simplistic to say the least. It is a whole walk in faith, not just one step.

    Why oh why is it so difficult to get grown people to understand that true biblical faith always produces works?

    Because it is not true, Royce! It's a myth!

    Faith does not automatically produce good works – it is always tied to our free will, our willful obedience. There is no concept of true or false faith in the scriptures, there is faith without works and faith with works. And we are the ones who decide which kind of faith we live – it is a daily decision. It is simply not true, that if your conversion was genuine, you have the true faith, all will flow from this true faith automatically. Today we stand in the faith, but we may fall away.

    You can ask yourself: How was it the last time you failed to do God's Will? Didn't you have this true faith at that time? Of course, you might answer, because once you have it you have it! OK, so why did the true faith NOT produce the right work then? Because, because … there is no answer to this in your theology! You failed, because you chose to disobey and not to fight and to resist to the blood!

    So, when true faith cannot hinder you from sinning, it does not produce obedience without your consent either. So the idea "that true biblical faith always produces works" is a myth.

    The idea of a "one step salvation" – one true and genuine conversion, and presto: Once saved always saved – is a terrible misunderstanding of the Gospel.

    Alexander

  19. Price says:

    Laymond, you're wrong about how I feel…I feel like an Heir of God, a co-Heir of Christ…I feel loved beyond measure…Incredible value and worth….I just don't think God NEEDS me to love Him.. I believe He is complete and needs nothing….Why He chose to create us, love us, die for us, etc.,etc., is beyond my capability to understand but I wouldn't for a minute discount his love for me.

    I consider myself privileged when He uses me to accomplish His work through me… I just don't choose to take any credit for what He does… Taking credit for something that He does through me seems ridiculous to me and it sure wouldn't cause me to feel better about myself…

    In fact, my OLD prayer used to be, Lord fill up my bucket with your blessings…now it's Lord pour your blessings through my funnel into the lives of others…

  20. laymond says:

    Price I didn't say God needed advice from you, just your undivided attention, and your hands and feet.
    Your trust in what he said, and love to carry it out.

    Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    What if you loved your dad with all your heart and he didn't need you at all. There are different needs, and even God can't save you without your help. (compliance )

  21. Alabama John says:

    Love itself is a work.

    Our Saviour does a work when He loves us, and some require far more work to love than others.
    Its much easier for us to love back. Loving back is a work too, but sure is easier, more of a response.
    If you know someone loves you (remember He first loved us) with all their heart, you will love them back and that will cause you to want to do something for them. Anything you feel they may want opr need done that is in your power to do.

    Take Jesus and God out of this thinking and put a child in instead. Think of your children or, grandchildren.

    The feeling and thinking is the same!

  22. Clyde Symonette says:

    So, did you guy skip from 7 to 12 or did you read all between?

  23. Royce Ogle says:

    I have two adopted grand daughters. They were adopted when they were two or three days old. Their parents set their affection on them and chose them to be their own. They are totally dependent upon their parents and can trust them to care for them and do what is best for them because they know they are loved.

    Now that they are "big girls" ( 9 and 10 years old ) they have work assigned to them. They have chores to do. Does anyone in their right mind think they do those chores to get their parents to love them or approve of them? No, it is natural for those girls to respond in kind to the love of their parents.

    It is not an accident that God chose adoption as one way to describe his relationship to his children. We didn't choose him, he chose us. He loves us so much more than my grand daughters parents love them. Get the picture?

    Royce

  24. Price says:

    Royce, I get it…Your Grand Daughters will each have different interpretations of how exactly to do their chores and one will unintentionally loose their "adoption" and the other will live in fear of it happening to her…They will understand that although they were once loved, they are now being watched so that they can be checked off as "fallen away." They will begin to bicker with one another as to who is right and who is wrong and eventually, real soon they will move out of the house and not only live away from their home but away from each other…where they will surround themselves with like minded people…for a while…but then they will begin to bicker with them too and then be scattered to the four corners of the earth…Sounds like one big happy family… 🙂

  25. laymond says:

    "Laymond…think that through Brother…You’re suggesting that God has a deficiency…I doubt it…I state again…He doesn’t NEED us…We NEED Him…"

    Price, Can it be that God needs to be needed? Can it be that God needs love? It is not just a request, it is a command, if God had everything he needed (I don't mean to exist) I mean to be satisfied. Why did he do all this?

    Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Price it is evident that your belief is, that God/ the creator, never existed alone. If there were two others, how do we know there were not many more, so why did God feel the need to create man. Or does your bible say "somewhere" that there were only three persons, before creation. And if God had "no need" for man, what was the motivation factor for the creation.
    Since you seem to have all the answers, please enlighten the rest of us.

  26. Royce Ogle says:

    1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (English Standard Version)

    13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

    14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

  27. Price says:

    Sorry Laymond, I was working on figuring out how many Angels fit on the head of a pin…..as to why God created man…scripture doesn't give us any specific reason…My GUESS is that He did it for His pleasure. Had it not been for Noah, the human race might have been once big waste of time…but since He exists out of time and knows the beginning from the end, none of this has surprised Him..My second GUESS is that He loves to Teach…..I cannot imagine nor would I suggest to anyone that He was deficient in anything.

    I only have the answers for myself…many of which has evolved…I don't mind expressing them but certainly no one is compelled to agree…freedom and all that…

  28. laymond says:

    " Had it not been for Noah, the human race might have been once big waste of time…"

    Price , surely you are not saying, the works of one man, saved the whole human race ?

  29. Price says:

    Laymond…not at all…Hebrews says….By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Noah, by FAITH believed God, and was obedient to God's instructions in "reverent fear"…..I don't see that as being some awesome act of Noah to construct an Ark…He just did what God told him to do…He certainly had a choice…and he chose well…But did Noah save the earth? Did he Destory the earth…All he did was go along for the ride and then drank himself into a coma..

  30. Doug says:

    And, oh yeah, I thought Jay's post was excellent!

  31. Price says:

    Laymond..one more thing…to Noah’s credit…He took none…

  32. Doug says:

    It seems like no matter how Jay defines the posting subject, the discusion/debate always gets back to the same “faith-works” or “works-faith” question. I’m sitting this one out…

  33. guy pulner says:

    @Doug, “It seems like no matter how Jay defines the posting subject, the discusion/debate always gets back to the same “faith-works” or “works-faith” question. I’m sitting this one out…”

    Because that’s the basis of all the disagreement to begin with. Every since Paul saw that talking light on the road to Damascus, the church has been divided over this strange distinction between faith vs works. Before that amazingly nobody even knew there was a conflict between the two; not even Jesus or God knew it until Paul schooled them.

  34. abasnar says:

    And actually, it is not even Paul’s faiult, because in Paul’s writings faith and works are one as well; but it is as Peter stated:

    2Pe 3:16 …. as he (Paul) does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

    Ever since the Reformation with Luther’s overreaction to works there has been a very imbalanced theology in Protestantism. And those who say or belive, that Paul changed the Gospel, actually don’t have issues with the real Paul, but with the Paul of the Reformation who is a quite different person …

    Alexander

  35. Trent Tanaro says:

    These comments are so comical, and we call ourselves people of the “Book”. Great post Jay!!

  36. Alabama John says:

    What has always been so interesting to me is if you saw and observed those that believe Faith first or Works first, you wouldn’t know which was which.

    Both have faith and do good things (works).

    Who cares why!

    The recepients of the good works sure don’t.

    The ‘ol chicken or the egg argument!

  37. John says:

    The turn that these comments have taken is absolutely ridiculous.

    The Bible is so plain and obvious on this matter, it's insane that there is so much debate on it.

    Sometimes we try to be too smart for our own good. This is NOT complicated.

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