We are led to some difficult but important conclusions —
1. God gets and is angry. God’s wrath is real and evident today in the Western world. His wrath is revealed in the moral decadence of modern society as God increasingly turns his back on us, letting Godlessness look more and more like Godlessness. God will not long permit a society to wallow in God-lite. Merely being nice and tolerant is not good enough. And God will see to it that a society that rejects him will suffer the natural consequences of their sins, as he withdraws his common-grace from those who rebel against him.
2. God is just. He imposes no punishment greater than anyone deserves. But everyone deserves destruction. We all deserve to be tossed into the trash pile of gehenna. No one deserves better.
(Deu 32:4 ESV) 4 “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.”
3. God elects. He elected Abram and his descendants to play a central role in his movement through human history. He made a covenant with Abraham that would shape the people of the planet more than any other event in human history. In Christ, however, he opened his election up to the Gentiles, but he continued to be a God who elects.
God elected to introduce the gospel in Israel, not China, not Peru, and not Fiji, and for centuries, that decision dramatically affected who would receive grace rather than justice. Those receiving justice have no basis for complaint — not really — because God is under no obligation to be gracious to anyone.
(Rom 9:15-16 ESV) 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Many perceive God’s decision to elect some but not others as unfair and even unloving. How can God destine so many to hell? But God destines no one to hell. Rather, everyone deserves a just fate, and justice is punishment that fits the crime. God could have fairly done nothing at all for the sinfulness of mankind.
4. God is not fair. He is much more than fair. He saves people who simply don’t deserve it. And that bothers us. A lot. We don’t want to feel like beggars. We want the self-respect that comes from pulling ourselves up by our boot straps and doing it all by ourselves. But we can’t.
No one deserves grace, and those who receive it can only thank and praise God that someone was sent to preach the gospel that they heard and believed.
5. God wants everyone saved.
(1Ti 2:3-4 ESV) 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
6. God damns those outside of grace. Nothing in Romans remotely suggests a doctrine of second chance. There is no “available light” exception for those who never heard the gospel. Universalism is foreign to the scriptures and irresponsible to teach. Hell is real.
We try to find a way out of the box and avoid damnation for others by some means other than the means offered by God —
(Rom 10:9-17 ESV) 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. … 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
I’m convinced that our efforts to escape the fact that many — most — will wind up in gehenna stem from two problems —
1. It strikes us as terribly unfair that so many will be damned, when we’re going to be saved and we know we don’t deserve it.
2. We feel guilty for not having done more to save the lost.
The traditional answer is the right answer. If we don’t like the fact that so many will be damned in their sins, the solution isn’t clever exegesis. It’s to send missionaries. It’s to be a missionary. It’s to raise your children to be missionaries. It’s to elevate missionaries as heroes and examples to the kids in Bible class.
Lobbying for laws and running for office won’t do it. Talking to your neighbor about Jesus will.
But even that won’t work if the churches we plant aren’t vibrant, Spirit-filled communities pursuing God’s redemptive mission. The church often fails to transform its community because it becomes internalized, all about doctrinal disputes and church politics and not at all about redeeming the world.
We have to plant churches — but only the right kind of churches will do.
There are no short cuts. There is no salve for our guilty consciences. Rather, we thank God for his grace — grace we desperately need because we haven’t sent out nearly all the missionaries and church planters God needs — and we try to do better going forward.
“No one deserves grace, and those who receive it can only thank and praise God that someone was sent to preach the gospel that they heard and believed.”
What is the deffinition of grace, and why do we say it is never earned?
NIV – Gen 6:8 – But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
chen — favour, acceptance, grace
Lets look at why Noah was accepted by God. Evidently God thought Noah deserved his favor, because of the life he lived.
NIV – Gen 6:9 – This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
It seems right to me to say, Noah earned God’s respect and acceptance.
If I read the gospels correctly, Jesus said that is exactly the way we will be judged, by the life we live.
AMEN Laymond!
Laymond,
It’s true that the whole world will be judge according to their works in this life (Christian and non Christian) ( Heb. 9:27; 2 Cor.5:10, 1 Peter 4:4-6). You can have a preview of what is going to happened that they in Rev. 20:12 . “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life (Holy Bible) . And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.” Jesus said that the instrument he will use in the last judgment will be “the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” (Jn. 12:48).
Laymond,
It’s true that the whole world will be judge according to their works in this life (Christian and non Christian) ( Heb. 9:27; 2 Cor.5:10, 1 Peter 4:4-6). You can have a preview of what is going to happened that they in Rev. 20:12 . “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life (Holy Bible and his gospel ) . And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.” Jesus said that the instrument he will use in the last judgment will be “the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” (Jn. 12:48).
Jay,
Great summary and slick use of gehenna (errrr… ha ha). God unconditionally elects people/places to service (fulfillment of a role), but conditionally elects people to salvation (one can reject or accept the gospel – freely). From nature to special revelation, mankind rejects or accepts Gods constant calling. We are responsible for our eternal dwelling, and while God will not fail to save believers, we will be judged for our evangelism, or lack thereof. God’s grace is glorious.
Laymond,
I have to disagree with your conclusion about Noah. Noah was a righteous man, but it was a relative righteousness compared to the people of his time.
Grace is never merited, even by Noah before or after the flood. God revealed the wickedness of [every] human’s heart before the flood (Gen. 6:5), when Noah lived, and after the flood (Gen. 8:21), when ONLY Noah and his family lived [assuming a worldwide flood]. Heb 11:7 confirms this OT interpretation and reveals Noah’s righteousness came by faith.
Thomas Aquinas’ words still ring true that God is the first mover in grace; his decision to give grace to sinners is what calls humanity to faith.
In the words of my son, Noah ain’t no Jesus (ha ha).
Historyguy, I think I have heard something I have never heard anyone else say before, “sin is relative.” all you have to do is sin less than the guy next to you.
That is like saying you don’t have to outrun the bear, just the other guy.
GFT,
and books were opened— What were the other books that were opened? How many? If the Book of Life is the one we know as the Bible, what else could they possibly be?
The Book Of Life?
Why must it be explained as the NT or Bible in parentheses instead of as its written, simply The Book of Life? May be far more than the NT., Bible or Gospels.
Laymond,
You not only misunderstood me, but you misquoted me. I don’t know how you arrived at your response, so I am not sure how to respond. Please read my previous post again. I am happy to clarify or answer a question about something I said. I am sorry if I was not clear.
I was trying to convey the following thought: Noah was righteous compared to the sinful world around him (Gen. 6:9; Acts 10:22); Noah was sinful before and after the flood (Gen. 6:5; 8:21); Noah did not earn or deserve grace (Rom. 3:10); Noah received grace by faith in God (Heb. 11:7, 39); Noah needed a savior because only Jesus is righteous.
I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.
Laymond,
I have to disagree with your conclusion about Noah. Noah was a righteous man, but it was a relative righteousness compared to the people of his time.
Historyguy, I think I have heard something I have never heard anyone else say before, “sin is relative.” all you have to do is sin less than the guy next to you.
HG I don’t know how one could come to any other conclusion, reading what you said. “Noah sinned less than those around him, therefore he was acceptable in God’s eyes.
I didn’t mean to quote what you said, I was just stating what I got out of what you said.
NIV – Gen 7:1 – The LORD then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.
NLT – Gen 7:1 – When everything was ready, the LORD said to Noah, “Go into the boat with all your family, for among all the people of the earth, I can see that you alone are righteous.
NIV – Mat 10:41 – Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward.
NLT – Mat 10:41 – If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God,* you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
can you show me where it is said only Jesus is righteous
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(I don’t know what Paul was referring to here.)
Okay, I think I got it now. We’re saved by grace through faith and that grace is bestowed on whom God elects as a result of finding favor with their works (of righteousness). Therefore grace is a result of our works. Thanks for clearing that up fellas.
Laymond,
Thank you for your cordial response, I to, am here as a friend. The Hebrew and Greek word translated righteous/just and its meaning seems to be the culprit in our disagreement. Some do not know that righteous has a relative and absolute definition. The relative sense refers to sinful humanity who strives toward God and what is right, and the absolute sense is only used of God/Trinity.
In the OT, the word is used in a relative sense for many people and cities, including Noah (Gen 6:9; 7:1; 8:20-21), Lott (Gen. 18:28; 2 Peter 2:7), and even Abimelech’s kingdom (Gen. 20:4). The same word is used in an absolute sense to refer to God (Exo. 9:27; Deut. 32:4).
In the NT, the word is used in a relative sense for many people, including the verses that you listed, as well as Joseph (Matt. 1:19); Lott from Sodom (2 Peter 2:7); prophets (Mt. 13:17), Able (Heb. 11:4), and Cornelius before he heard the gospel (Acts 10:22). The same word is used in an absolute sense to refer to God the Father (John 17:24-25), the Lord the righteous judge (2 Tim. 4:8), Jesus the righteous one (1 John 2:1, 29; Acts 3:14), and God’s commandments (Rom. 7:12), to name a few. In the absolute sense, no human, meaning neither Jew nor Gentile, is righteous (Rom. 3:9-12; Rom. 5:19; Gal. 3:11; Rom. 10:3).
The good news is that Christ, the lamb who takes away the sins of the world, who is the real and only righteous one, will impute his absolute righteousness to us who believe, which is the basis for how we are saved and reconciled to God (Rom. 3:21-22, 26; Rom. 5:19; Heb. 12:23; 1 John 2:1; Philippians 3:9), because nothing imperfect (sinful) is allowed to enter heaven. Christ, who had no sin, became sin so that we can stand as righteous before God in an absolute sense (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21).
Every verse I listed for relative and absolute sense uses the same Hebrew or Greek word translated righteous/just. You can check what I have said with an online bible tool, lexicon, concordance (http://www.studylight.org/lex/), or program like E-sword.
I hope this sheds light on how Noah is righteous in a relative sense compared to the wickedness around him (Gen. 7:1; Psalm 34:12-16), but as a sinner, needed God’s mercy and salvation by becoming an heir of the absolute righteousness of God, which is through faith (Rom. 1:17; Heb. 11:7).
Alabama John,
Thank you for ask to clarify about the books. Searching in the Scripture I found that the book of life is what Jesus mentioned in Luke 10:20 “but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.” This is one of the books is going to be open that day, the other book will be the Scriptures “ O.T for the Jews, N.T for those after the death of our Lord (Jews and gentiles) ” that all man will be judged by his life in harmony with God’s word. Not by the creeds and dogmas of men, but by the eternal Word of God will all be judged in the last day. Jesus said: “the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” ( Jn. 12:48; Rev. 20:12).
2 Tim. 4:1 “Christ Jesus….. shall judge the living and the dead” Life is veiled with uncertainty; no one knows what the future holds, but one thing is definite: We shall stand before the judgment-seat God… so then each one of us shall give account of himself to God” (Rom. 14:10-12). The basis of the judgement will be one’s deeds, words, and thoughts. At the judgment of the records of each life will be opened, all his works will be made manifest, and each individual shall then give an account of “the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:10); the Lord “then shall… render unto every man according to his deeds” (Mt.16:27). Every act of life will be brought under review; even the hidden and secret things, good or bad, shall be brought to light. “For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. (Eccl. 12:14). Nothings can be hid from God’s all seeing eye,” And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.” (Heb. 4:13). “The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.” (Prov. 15:3; cf. Psalm 139:1-2).
The world’s redeemer is perfectly qualified to be the judge at the last day on earth’s history because He is Divine and has perfect knowledge of both man’s deeds and motives. Christ knows what is the man (Jn.2:24-25). He has perfect simpaty, too, since He once lived on this earth; he will be merciful to the full extent of mercy consistence with perfect justice and perfect truth. (cf. Heb. 2:17-18; 4:15).
Not only of overt acts will the judge take account, but He also “will both bring light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsel of the hearts” (1 Cor. 4:5), thereby judging “the secrets of men” (Romans 2:16). It is possible to cover up sin and iniquity in this world – as many do- but all will be uncovered in that great day, even the secret plans made in the heart but never carried out. Everything will be made known in the day of judgment, and all men will be dealt with as individual.
Furthermore, Jesus said, “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Mt. 12:36-37). So not only does God keep a record of man’s deeds and his thoughts, but He also keeps a record of his words as well (cf. Malachi 3:16; Eph. 4:29). Man must give an account of his speech in the day of judgment.
In Christ ‘s description of the judgment (Mt. 25:31-46), He commended the righteous for their deeds of charity done unto His disciples. These acts of faith and love constitute one of the conditions of acceptance in that day, for none can be finally saved without them.
In reality, the ground of man’s acceptance at the final day will be his faith in Jesus Christ, man’s savior, manifested by his obedience to the Lord’s will and by his discharge of this obedience in accordance to his ability and opportunities (cf. Eph. 2:8-9; 1Jn.1:7;22; Mat 7:21-27; 12:41-42; 25:15; Luke 10:12-14; 12:47-48; Rev. 22:14).
HG if your conclusion is the correct one what did Jesus mean when he said—NIV – Mat 9:13 – But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’* For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
If he saw no righteous, why not call all to repent.
If your conclusion is right then Jesus was born of a sinful woman, How was such righteous born from sin.
Laymond,
I hope your day is going well.
Your first question is set by the context of Mathew 9:9-13. The self-proclaimed righteous Pharisee challenged Jesus for calling sinners to be his disciple (How could a man of God do such a thing?) In response, Jesus quotes Hos. 6:6 to teach the Pharisee of their condition (Matt. 12:7) by equating them with the supposed righteous priesthood of Hosea’s period, which was actually corrupt and hypocritical. Hence, the climactic condemnation of these self-righteous Pharisee in Mathew 23. While confronting the Pharisee in Mathew 9, Jesus reminds everyone (crowd and Pharisee) that he came to call sinners, who were the crowd and knew their lowly place before God (Luke 18:9-14). Jesus uses the words of the Pharisee to rebuke them, and essentially says “okay, I have not come to call you righteous (more like self-righteous) Pharisee folks who are not sinners (though you really are), but I did come to save these sinners and tax collectors around you, so thanks for asking.” We see elsewhere that Jesus was calling the relative-righteous Pharisee, who really served God, but knew they were sinners (John 3:1-3; 19:38-40).
You asked, why did not Jesus call all to repent? Jesus did call everyone of every nation to repent (Matt. 4:17; Lk. 13:3; Lk. 24:47; Acts 2:38-39; Acts 17:30-31)
Your 3rd question asked, If my conclusion is right, then Jesus was born of a sinful woman, so how was such righteous born from sin?
I affirm that Mary was sinful and needed savior (Lk. 1:47; 1 Tim. 2:5). I want to emphasize that Jesus is sinless because of his divine agency; He is God incarnate. Jesus is not just another human creation, he is a new creation. As the second Adam, Jesus’ humanity was not subject to the corruption that came to all of Adam and Eve’s posterity (1 Cor. 15:21-22, 45-47). He is 100% nature of man and 100% nature of God united in one sinless person. That is my primary response because going further into the Christological issue will result in either Nestorianism or Monophysitism.
Laymond,
My answer to your previous question is waiting on moderation. In the meantime, will you name a biblical character who you believe went to heaven without the atoning/saving blood of Christ? [I.e. name a biblical character who you believe saved himself]
HistoryGuy said “I want to emphasize that Jesus is sinless because of his divine agency; He is God incarnate. Jesus is not just another human creation, he is a new creation. As the second Adam, Jesus’ humanity was not subject to the corruption that came to all of Adam and Eve’s posterity ”
HG- if what you say is true, which of the following scripture is not true.
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
HG. asked “will you name a biblical character who you believe went to heaven” I can cut the question short because I don’t believe any has gone to heaven at this time, I believe they are all waiting to be judged as we are.
Laymond,
As to your question, both Scriptures are true, because God cannot lie (Heb 6:18; 13:8) and Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). Christ is 100% nature of man and 100% nature of God united in one sinless person. Going further into the Christological issue will result in either Nestorianism or Monophysitism. Jesus Christ is the God-Man; therefore, Jesus’ humanity was tempted, but did not sin (Heb. 4:15), and Jesus’ divinity was not tempted, nor could it be (James 1:13). Both scriptures are true.
As to my question, thank you for correcting my tense, but I did not see your answer. I am sensing that you believe some people do not need Jesus as their savior, because their righteousness can pay their sin debt and save themselves from God’s wrath (Jesus is either necessary or he is not).
Please name a biblical character who you believe does not need the blood of the Jesus in order to spend eternity with God.
@ Laymond,
Please take your medication – please!
Hesed,
Randall
“Please name a biblical character who you believe does not need the blood of the Jesus in order to spend eternity with God.”
HistoryGuy, I believe I will leave judgement to God. If it is good enough for Jesus I think it will be good enough for me.
Jhn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Jhn 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
I thought we were talking about righteous people mentioned in scripture. not passing judgement on sinners.
Laymond, Do I understand you to say that no one has yet entered heaven because they haven’t been judged? Does that mean that one has to wait until the judgement to find out if they are saved ?? I thought being weighed on the balance to see which side, evil or good, wins out was the Islamic faith….
Price asked, do you mean we have to wait?
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Price I am not deciding anything, and as Jesus said you don’t have to believe him either, but he said you would be judged on the last day. I take him at his word, you have the right to accept or reject as you see fit.
So, what you are saying Laymond is that you don’t know if the work Christ did on the Cross for you worked ? I thought we were SAVED by Grace through Faith… If that is true, then the only way you won’t be saved is if you don’t have faith… That doesn’t mean we won’t have to give an account of our actions and some believe that there are various depths of rewards and correction that might take place in heaven based on how we handled our opportunities… I’ve often sat down with my kids to address their behavior but never did I disown them because of their inability to be perfect…If we are indeed SAVED by Grace through Faith, then the only thing in doubt is one’s faith…not their works… right ?
Think of it this way—grace is what God does; faith is what we do. It takes both working together to receive salvation.
Salvation is not dependent on grace alone. If it were, everyone would be saved and going to heaven, for God’s grace is the same toward everyone.
Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
He has already brought the gift of salvation to everyone through Jesus. It is by faith that a person receives what was done 2,000 years ago.
But what did James say?
Jam 2:14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Laymond, IMHO your use of the James passage isn’t applicable to your point as he was speaking of the OUTWARD manifestation of faith…not the INWARD belief that one ascends to for salvation… He uses Abraham as an example (vs 21) and says that he was justified by his works when he was offering up Issac… However, Abraham was justified by faith totally apart from works…Romans 4 leaves no doubt about this… decades before Issac was born…
The problem exists with what might be considered a contradiction of James and Paul…but upon closer inspection, James is obviously speaking about what OTHERS might see publicly displayed… His use of the words “show me” seem to support this conclusion. A clear example of the term justification meaning to “show” is found in the Pharisees (luke 16:15), the Lawyer (Luke 10:28-29) and other examples found at Matt 11:19, Luke 7:35, and “Romans 3:4….
There is a BIG difference in God declaring your righteousness on the basis of a free gift that you receive by faith and that of displaying acts based on that faith…Big difference… One saves…the other demonstrates outwardly what is going on inside.. Some call this the “fruit” …
well Price, you have a right to your opinion.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
What is your humble opinion on this?
Laymond,
I appreciate our conversation, but believe that you intentionally avoiding the question, which I have rephrased for you three times. This is not about whether one is in heaven, or judging others, but rather about the use of righteous/just, which is how our conversation began and directly tied to eternity with God.
I will try once more to understand your position:
Will Noah spend eternity in heaven because of his righteousness or Christ’s righteousness?
HistoryGuy, this is the statement that triggered my response. “No one deserves grace, and those who receive it can only thank and praise God that someone was sent to preach the gospel that they heard and believed.”
I responded with the use of scripture.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
And then quoted why and how he became favored by God.
Gen 6:9 ¶ These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
Then, I suppose this is where I made the big mistake, and left myself open to argument–“If I read the gospels correctly, Jesus said that is exactly the way we will be judged, by the life we live”.– but instead of you disagreeing with my reading of the gospel, you disagreed that Noah was righteous so as to deserve God’s favor/grace. (which the bible says he did, already)
And naturally as these things tend to do it swerved off the road, and turned into whether I believed we need Jesus or not. And whether Noah has or is going to go to heaven.
HistoryGuy, If I were blessed with seeing the future , I would gladly answer your question, but I can’t , how can you expect me to even know when that day will come? when Jesus says it is hidden from him. Since Noah lived before “The law of Moses” and the preaching of the gospel, I doubt either had any bearing on where he is.
Now that said, I don’t believe “The Grace of God” is bestowed by preaching the gospel.
Laymond and HistoryGuy,
Hmm … If Noah was “righteous” in the same sense that God is righteous (same word in the Hebrew), then why did he need grace? (Some translations say “favor,” but the same word — charis — is the word translated “grace” in the NT.)
Compare —
It’s the same word in the Greek and the Hebrew.
We often forget that there are far fewer Hebrew words than English. And as is true in English as well, words have varying meanings depending on the context.
“Righteous” therefore can refer to a human as righteous enough to gain God’s favor and gracious salvation from the Flood. That hardly means he was righteous enough to merit God’s salvation absent the saving power of Jesus’ sacrifice.
Just so, I can refer to someone as a “good man” and not mean “good enough to merit God’s salvation.”
It’s always grace because no one, save Jesus, is as righteous as God. And that’s the level of righteousness required to merit an eternity with God.
And that’s Paul’s point in Rom 3 —
(Gen 6:9 BGT) ???????
Laymond, with all due respect, there isn’t a personal opinion on whether Abraham was justified by Faith apart from works or justified by his works… It can’t be both ways… Paul says he was justified decades before the incident which James refers to..I’m all ears as to how you can rectify the apparent contradiction…
As far as works…I just refer to Galatians 2:20…It’s not me..It’s Him.. I take zero credit for the motivation, ability or opportunity to do good.. I do take 100% of the blame for my failure to respond to his urgings.. But, He knows I’m just a walking pile of dust, worthless except to Him… And, I’ll put my trust in the Cross rather than on some works based theology… He said He saved me by Grace if I accepted him him by Faith. I did, and I’m saved.. Perfect ? Not by a long shot… but, the Gospel means that I don’t have to be…
Gen 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; —–.
Then God told Abraham what he must do to keep the covenant. even concerning his family.
Gen 17:15 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Is this the faith Abraham had in God.with no works required? I could continue , but I see no need.
Laymond… To accept your premise, one would have to totally disregard what Paul says in Romans 4:1-5
” What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
And for dummies like me, Paul goes on to explain it a little further in this same chapter as to why it’s not by works but by faith…
Vs. 13-14 “For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Paul even describes his “faith” so there is no confusion with works…
Vs. 19a He did not weaken in faith….Vs 20a No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God,
Vs. 21-22 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
How applicable is that for us today ?? Well, Paul answers that question for us as well…
vs 23-25 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
The Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, MADE SURE that there was no confusion over what saves us…either Jew or Gentile…it was by an unwavering, totally trusting, and fully convinced FAITH…
Which undoubtedly leads to good things being done…but like Abraham, we need to give God the glory for that as well because as it says here, if there was any boasting…it wasn’t going to be before God…I can’t say, Hey God…look at what I did… filthy rags…
Price said— “The Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, MADE SURE that there was no confusion over what saves us…either Jew or Gentile…it was by an unwavering, totally trusting, and fully convinced FAITH… ”
As I see it Price is saying it is what we THINK that saves us, not what we DO.
Price let me quote someone else who thinks along those same lines.
“Most of us believe that in order to be saved, we need to ask God to forgive us of our sins. But that isn’t what the Bible teaches. In 1 John 2:2, it states that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. Jesus didn’t just die for those He knew would accept Him; He died for every sinner who has ever lived on this earth. And He died before you or I ever committed a single sin.”
“Here is a radical truth that would get me kicked out of most churches: Sin is not an issue with God! The Lord isn’t waiting for us to ask Him to forgive us of our sins. The sins of the entire world—past, present, and future—have already been forgiven. Even a man like Adolf Hitler had grace extended to him! Jesus loved Hitler and paid for his sins just as He did for you and me. God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:4).”
“People do not go to hell for committing adultery, stealing, or even murder. Those, like all sins, have already been paid for. This is what the Bible says in John 16:8-9—the only sin that is going to send people to hell is the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So stop magnifying sin in your life!”
excerpts from, Living In The Balance Of Grace And Faith
By Andrew Wommack
Price, do you agree with Mr. Wommack?
Laymond…I do not agree with Wommack…I agree with Paul…and THINKING isn’t the same as BELIEVING… Belief is putting one’s trust in something or someone…as in Abraham believed God… Abraham was willing to do what God asked him to do because he trusted in God… That isn’t the same as coming to some mental ascent that there is a God… But Paul made absolutely crystal clear it wasn’t what he DID that justified him…it was his faith and belief…
I find it odd that you deflected on this issue because you’re not taking issue with me, you’re taking issue with Paul and the whole of Romans chapter 4… If it doesn’t say what it says, then why don’t you offer an alternative explanation for what it says instead of throwing out garbage from some off the wall bizarro person who probably few of us know and none of us would agree with ??
Price, if you believe all you are asked to do is believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, then you might not want to cut Mr. Wommack short, without reading his views.
http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/living_balance
Jay,
Thank you for your post on August 5th, 2011 at 8:42 pm. I wanted to make sure you knew that I agree, and made a similar post on August 4th, 2011 at 12:52 am. Afterward, the post sparked a Christological discussion between Laymond and me, and then we returned to the basic question about righteousness.
I did not know if you mentioned me so that I would see it, or if you disagree. If you disagree with something that I have said, please let me know as I am happy to hear your thoughts and study the issue.
My position is explained in my post August 4th, 2011 at 12:52 am, but in short… Noah was relatively righteous compared to the people around him (a sinner focused on God vs. a sinner focused on self), but was only given grace and final salvation because of Christ’s righteousness, which comes through faith (Heb. 11:7; Philippians 3:9). Noah’s ancestors knew the one true God (Gen. 4-5), and Noah knew how to offer sacrifice to God (Gen. 8:20); thus, there is no reason (not that you are) to suggest that Noah did not worship God before the flood. Gen. 7:1 is years after Gen. 6:9, and confirms that Noah was righteous by faith (Heb. 11:7) during the building of the ark, but IMO, before and after as well.
Please review my post from August 4th, 2011 at 12:52 am. Thanks.
Laymond,
Thank you for your response to me on August 5th, 2011 at 3:18 pm. I realize that you were initially responding to statement by someone else, but I wanted to better understand you, nonetheless. You did respond with Scripture (Gen. 6:8-9), but I responded with the use of the word righteous in Scripture on August 4th, 2011 at 12:52 am, as well as DIVINE commentary about Noah’s righteousness (Heb. 11:7).
I wanted to talk with you, and thank you for the conversation, but I should have just said… Scripture says Noah was righteous by faith (Heb. 11:7), commended for his faith (Heb. 11:1), living by faith when he died (Heb. 11:13), and will be welcomed into heaven because of his faith in God (Heb. 11:16).
HistoryGuy, I enjoy a good debate, especially one that remains calm . as ours has been, Thank you, I believe you to be a righteous man, and deserving of God’s consideration. just my opinion Lord.
Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(God did all this because his creation broke the rule, once. and now it is said all we have to do is reach out our hand, and grasp eternal life.
I believe the gospel is about more than just believing, I believe it is about doing.)
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(now let’s remember , those who speak, speak the word of God, something some often forget)
Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
(If you have a “right” to something, does not the one who gives it, think you deserve it?)
I don’t see anything about unmerited grace here.