Baptism/Amazing Grace: A Conversation Over Lunch, Part 6.5

Maybe the Jews were subject to a stricter rule because they had God’s word. What about the pagan? Maybe N. T. Wright isn’t right, you know!

Let’s turn back to —

(Rom 2:6-8 ESV)  6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;  8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Some argue that righteous pagans (those who’ve never heard God’s word) can meet this standard, but that’s a works salvation argument. Paul says “according to his works.” His point is that the standard is the same for Jews as for Gentiles. God isn’t being a respecter of persons. They are stand before God under the very standard.

But the standard for salvation is not just doing good deeds, but seeking glory (the presence of God), honor (from God), and immortality (from God). These are gifts that can only be sought from God himself. And we can’t seek them merely by being good in hopes of achieving Nirvana. This is for those who seek God’s good pleasure.

Those who are damned are those who “do not obey the truth,” and “truth” is the gospel — the truth about God as revealed through Jesus. (Compare Rom 1:18, 25.)

Paul is not carving out an exception. He’s setting up the rest of what he says — all the way through chapter 11. Context matters.

And we can hardly claim, in light of the rest of Romans and the rest of the New Testament, that works salvation is possible. After all, Adam and Eve had but one command to obey, and they failed even that test. Who among us could do better? Why romanticize the pagan world as capable of doing what we can’t even do? (Compare Romans 7!)

Okay, you’ve made your point. I concede that those who’ve never heard about Jesus can’t be saved by their works, but maybe they can be saved by their faith. Maybe they can discern enough about God from his revelation — per Romans 1:19-20 that you quoted to me. Maybe a wise pagan could truly learn enough about God to come to saving faith without having heard about Jesus or even the Scriptures. Why not?

History is, always, a great instructor. Plato — a genius for the ages — studied enough of nature to conclude that there is but a single god. But Greek monotheism is very different from Jewish monotheism. And when the two worldviews collided on Mars Hill, Paul told the Greeks,

(Act 17:30-31 ESV)  30 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,  31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

“Righteousness” in Acts 17:31 can be equally well translated “justice” (as in the NIV). Righteousness and justice are overlapping concepts in Hebrew and the same word in Greek.

This passage parallels Paul earlier speech at Iconium, also a Greek city —

(Act 14:15-17 ESV) 15 “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.  16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.  17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

Plainly, Paul — the apostle to the Gentiles — is announcing that God is going to judge the nations with perfect justice and the only escape is repentance through the gospel — that is, through faith in Jesus.

Or consider Cornelius — a truly good Gentile and a God-fearer. He wasn’t saved until he believed the message preached by Peter (Acts 11:13-14). Peter preached “a message by which you will be saved.” Obviously, Cornelius was not yet saved, even though he was “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God” (Acts 10:2).

If Cornelius was not saved without hearing the gospel, why would we imagine that anyone else would be? How much more holy would they have to be? This Gentile was already a God fearer! All he lacked was belief that Jesus is the Messiah.

Remember: Peter’s sermon to Cornelius ends, not with a demand for greater morality or for more intense faith, but —

(Act 10:42-43 ESV)  42 “And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he [Jesus] is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.  43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

And this makes perfect sense in light of the overarching theme of Acts and the rest of the Bible. It’s not faith in faith or faith in love or faith in baptism or faith in goodness — or even faith in God — that saves. It’s faith in Jesus.

Cornelius received the Spirit not because he grasped baptismal theology or believed in God for the first time. He was already a God-fearer. He just didn’t yet know about Jesus. And he was lost.

Well, maybe he wasn’t so much “lost” as not as saved as he could have been. Maybe Peter merely allowed him to have a closer relationship with God than before! Perhaps he still would have gone to heaven!

There comes a point where we have to decide whether we know God better than the authors of the Scriptures. I find zero evidence in the Bible that faith in Jesus only make us more saved or closer than before. All the evidence points the other way.

Is it harsh to say that Cornelius was damned before he came to faith in Jesus? It was just.

After all, God also damned the majority of the First Century Jews, because Paul testifies in Romans 9 – 11 than only a “remnant” believed and were saved (Rom 11:5).

(Rom 11:20-21 ESV)  20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.  21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

How could it be that God would save the righteous pagan and damn the righteous Jew? A recurring theme of Romans is that the standard is the same. Cornelius needed to hear the gospel to be saved for the same reason that the Jews and Samaritans before him needed to hear the gospel to be saved.

Finally, we read in Acts about the debate over whether Gentiles must be circumcised to be saved. James said,

(Act 15:10-11 ESV)  10 “Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?  11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Salvation is by grace, for both Jews and Gentiles. But no one argued that the Gentiles were already saved by their faith in one god as taught by Plato and other philosophers. Rather, even those worshiping an unknown god and even those worshiping the Living God were lost until they came to faith in Jesus.

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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9 Responses to Baptism/Amazing Grace: A Conversation Over Lunch, Part 6.5

  1. Alabama John says:

    Jay,
    Then all our ancestors from the beginning of time (unless they are Jewish) are in hell. Makes you wonder what WE did to be so blessed to be born at a time and place where this is taught correctly so we can believe just right and go to heaven while even today all around us are still going to hell.

    God is no respecter of persons would be laughable and sure be a false teaching if this is true.

    On the other hand, who ALL did Jesus go to after he was raised? Who and where were those people? Time and distance meant nothing to Jesus. Jesus might have been known by far more people than we know about. If all was written that He did, the world wouldn’t hold the books. WE only know what is necessary for our salvation. There is no need for us to know everything and we shouldn’t think we do.

    The main belief should be we have a loving and fair, just, God and condemning all but a few of US has to be wrong as it just doesn’t fit who we want to be with for eternity.

    Now either God sends all to hell that throughout time that never even had a chance to be saved (including Paul if he hadn’t been chosen by God and continued living and worshiping God as he had from his youth) or, we are missing something. My money is on us missing something.

  2. laymond says:

    A J, I vote for the missing link.

  3. aBasnar says:

    Then all our ancestors from the beginning of time (unless they are Jewish) are in hell.

    That’s wrong, Alabama John. they are in Hades awaitingtheir resurection at the day of judgement. Maybe and insignificant detail, but none of our ancestors is in heaven yet either.

    Alexander

  4. And then again, it may be that God’s mercy and justice are more complex than our interpretation of a few hints and glimpses from scripture can adequately describe.

    My thesis continues to be: Trust God. Don’t assume everyone who hasn’t heard is condemned. Don’t assume everyone who hasn’t heard is saved. Don’t assume anyone is condemned. Don’t assume anyone is saved. Don’t make the judgment call that is God’s call to make. Don’t make Him sound untrustworthy by making a broad, sweeping call for whole classes of people. He does judge each by their words and actions.

    Just tell the Story. Those who haven’t heard it need to; it carries the promise of salvation. Mercy may be shown by God to whomever He wills. Justice may be shown by God to whomever He wills. Those who have heard the Story and love it will never tire of hearing it. And those who don’t want to hear it will walk away. Love them anyway. Maybe you aren’t the one to plant the seed in their hearts. Maybe that will be for a Paul to do; maybe you’ll get to water, like Apollos. Maybe not.

    But if I understand scripture’s subtexts, one of them is that God lets us make informed choices, and then He respects them, and acts accordingly.

  5. Jerry says:

    Alabama John,

    Remember Acts 17:30. There Paul made a distinction between the times of ignorance and now when he commands all men everywhere to repent.

    Jerry

  6. Alabama John says:

    Thanks Jerry,

    I also like to quote the same chapter, verse23-24.
    23: “For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. WHOM therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.” 24: “God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;”

    They like so many others in the past and even today are worshiping an UNKNOWN GOD, but not knowing that is the real God. Point is they were worshiping Him. How, we are left to our imagination. Most humans have done that in the past throughout the ages and some even today.

    My point being, God is and has been worshiped throughout history and today, even unknowingly.

    Putting verse 30 in perspective it would be like me commanding a company of men while in the Marines and yelling out a commandment that only a few near me could possibly hear and obey. Would it be just to punish the ones that could not in any way hear and thus obey?
    Of course not and if I would be just and understanding of those men that didn’t get the word, how much more would God be that is far more just than I or any of us could ever be?

  7. HistoryGuy says:

    Alabama John,
    Your [and others] posts seem to miss God’s nature and man’s sin. I keep reading all these people talk about “that is not fair;” it amazes me that Christians have completely missed that we are all sinners, and as sinners we have raped, pillaged, and plundered God’s kingdom! Nevertheless, instead of sending us to punishment, he offers us pardon. The default position is that humanity is under sin and hell bound. If the world is not under sin, it does not need a Savior, and if it does not need a savior, then Jesus was a lying fake.

    Would you think it is fairer if God were to say, those you are concerned about don’t believe and will not believe so they are going to hell? Would you think their fate is fairer if God told you, he knew their every intimate thought before he created them and weeps over their destruction, while you can only theorize about them? Though these two rhetorical questions are answered in Scripture, and I understand what God says, that doesn’t mean I like it. However, I do accept it. Noah condemned the world when he got in the Ark, I, in a way, condemned my agnostic friends when I converted to Christianity.

    Still, I find solace in Scriptural teaching that (1) All humanity is without excuse, under sin, and deserving of Hell (2) God has been calling and saving believers, according to his purpose and plan, in every age of mankind since Adam (3) God places everyone in the best position to respond to his call [even the Ninevites] (4) God sends the gospel to everyone who will respond (5) not one believer will be lost, and (6) humans from every culture will be in heaven. The Triune God of the Bible lives, moves in ways beyond our comprehension, and is mighty to save. His wrath is fair, but his gracious call is unfathomable.

  8. Alabama John says:

    HistoryGuy,
    Great post. Thanks!!!

    I would answer yes to first question and no to second. Every one born had a shot at heaven. God didn’t prearrange any to go to hell.

  9. Jay Guin says:

    Paul makes clear in a couple of places that God did not damn the Gentiles before Pentecost.

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