Salvation 2.0: Part 7.2: “The teaching of Christ”

grace5For some reason, 2 John 9 has become a favorite proof text among Church of Christ traditionalists. So let’s start with understanding what John is saying here.

(2Jo 1:9 ESV) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

A couple of points to begin:

First, John is not contradicting what he taught in his Gospel or in 1 John. Everyone with faith in/faithfulness to/trust in Jesus is saved. Clearly, “the teaching of Christ” must be the gospel, that is, what one must believe to have faith. Any other interpretation would cause John to contradict himself in countless ways.

Second, the Greek scholars debate whether “of Christ” is objective (what Jesus taught) or subjective (the teaching about Jesus). The end result is the same either way. In John’s Gospel, the focus of Jesus’ teaching is his own messiahship and mission. John is not speaking of a body of doctrine and denominational boundary markers. His focus in on Jesus himself.

So let’s look at the context.

(2Jo 1:1-3 ESV)  The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,  2 because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:  3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love.

In the NT, “truth” is almost always used to mean “gospel.” I did a brief series several years ago covering every relevant NT passage. Of particular interest would be —

(Joh 14:6 ESV)  6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

(1Jo 2:21-23 ESV)  21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.  22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.  23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 

There is an excellent essay on this point in Leon Morris’ New International Commentary on John.

Now, if we take “truth” to mean something like “Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, who came in the flesh and who was crucified for our sins and resurrected by the Father,” then John’s first few verses in 1 John make perfect sense and fit his overall teaching in his Gospel and 1 John.

In particular, we know from 1 John, that the community John was writing to was dealing with certain “antichrists” who denied the incarnation. Hence,

(1Jo 4:1-6 ESV) Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.  2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,  3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.  4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.  5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.  6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

John distinguishes “truth” from “error” based on whether someone confesses “that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.”

Continuing in 2 John —

(2Jo 1:7-8 ESV)  7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.  8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

What is the issue John is confronting in 2 John? Plainly, once again, whether Jesus, the Messiah, came in the flesh. Those who deny this, he says, are damned.

(2Jo 1:9-11 ESV) 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.  10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,  11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

“The teaching of Christ” and “this teaching” is the same thing. Plainly. Anyone who denies Jesus should not be welcomed into your house or greeted. This is plainly not just any error or sin. He’s not referring to those Christians who are less than perfect or have any doctrinal error of any kind. Plainly, he’s talking about an error at the core of Christianity — whether Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) come in the flesh.

He is not saying that all disagreements and all errors require us to deny fellowship. Not at all. He’s saying that all with faith in Jesus are saved; no one else is.

Profile photo of Jay Guin

About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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63 Responses to Salvation 2.0: Part 7.2: “The teaching of Christ”

  1. laymond says:

    “In John’s Gospel, the focus of Jesus’ teaching is his own messiahship and mission. John is not speaking of a body of doctrine and denominational boundary markers. His focus in on Jesus himself.”
    This is what is wrong with the ” church of Christ” today they have turned a church led by Jesus into a church that worships Jesus ( the messenger ) , instead of the Father, who sent the messenger. We ignore ( at our own peril ) what the messenger himself said, “I can do nothing of my own, I do the will of my Father”
    Is there any wonder why the membership is dropping ?

  2. Dwight says:

    Actually Laymond, I think those in the conservative coC worship the word, the bible, the doctrine, more than Jesus or God. It is twisted to think it is the word from which we get Jesus, instead of Jesus who brought and is the word. We listen to the words, but ignore the man who brought the words and the things he did while doing so.
    The tag line at our own assembly is “where the bible leads the way”, but it is Christ who leads and is the way.

  3. Mark says:

    The cofC loves Paul more than Jesus. Almost all sermons began, “If you have your Bibles, turn to X Y:Z.” Where the book was one of the Pauline letters. Here began the proof-texts. I never understood the attraction to the letters to the churches at the expense of all the rest of the Bible. Even on Easter, the words “He is risen” were not said.

    While we are on the topic of doctrine, about which doctrine are we talking, cofC doctrine or the old Christian doctrine? The two are almost separate but the former is far more important than the latter.

  4. Dwight says:

    Paul wrote more things that can be used as law, than Jesus did, so he will be used more in that way. Jesus teaching was more heart related, while Paul’s more application based in some ways. And he wrote a lot of letters, while the four gospels duplicate many points of the other. And plus the point that Paul argues that his teachings were from Jesus. Sooooo…..!
    But having said that we should always try to mine Jesus first and then use Paul as the secondary, unless Jesus didn’t remark on a certain thing that Paul addresses. Paul often had to deal with those who were dividing and leaving the gospel for Judaism.

  5. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    laymond,

    You are wrong indeed to limit this statement to churches of Christ: “This is what is wrong with the ” church of Christ” today they have turned a church led by Jesus into a church that worships Jesus ( the messenger ) , instead of the Father, who sent the messenger.”

    Every denomination that I have ever visited (several different Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, non-denoms, Christian Church, et al) worshiped Jesus. Without failure or exception.

  6. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    and Hallelujah for that!

  7. laymond says:

    Kevin, I was not limiting this to the CoC , what I was saying was the church of Christ I attended when I was a child , worshiped God as the creator of all things, now they are taking their lead from the churches you mentioned, which makes the CoC unnecessary , they belong under the same roof. and yes they ignore the teachings of Jesus in preference to the teachings of Paul. When we have “elders ” of the CoC saying that baptism is not necessarily necessary that it is only a symbol, then the church I was raised with no longer exist . I haven’t yet been present where the preacher has the brass to actually preach a sermon on “God is a trinity” or that “Jesus is god” I expect it won’t be long in coming.

  8. laymond says:

    Dwight said, “The tag line at our own assembly is “where the bible leads the way”, but it is Christ who leads and is the way.”

    Dwight how many times have you seen Jesus at your Church? If you believe the bible is “the word of God” then you should be led by that word, the word that Jesus heard from God and words that Jesus spoke.
    As Jesus said he will not be the judge of man, the word of God will be the judge of man.

  9. Dwight says:

    Actually God Himself will be the judge of man, not the word.
    I agree we have to depend on the word, but the word isn’t about itself, but about Jesus.
    Jesus didn’t say, “the word is the way, the truth and the life”, but rather “I AM”.
    As Psalms say, “Thy word is a path unto my feet and a light unto my way.”
    but it doesn’t relate to us and it didn’t die for us and wasn’t raised for us.
    The purpose of the word isn’t to point back to itself as the savior, but rather to point to Jesus as the savior. Half the time we fight over the words and lose the big picture of the meanings and purpose.
    I have actually been to a coC where they taught that God is a trinity and Jesus is God and the coC mostly still believes that baptism is necessary, and yet the sermon I just heard on baptism, among those that were baptized, was that baptism is the way to life, salvation and is how to attain disciple ship. Well, discipleship was attained without baptism and baptism is the result of discipleship, but Matt.18:19 doesn’t argue that when one is baptized, then one is a disciple, which means we could baptize people, then teach them Christ. And Jesus is life, not baptism, as baptism had not died and risen again. And while you are saved in baptism, we are also saved by faith, repentance, perseverance and work.
    The problem I see is that we do often in a knee jerk reaction and defiance against faith-only inadvertently teach baptism as the crux of our salvation. Our goal shouldn’t be to get people in water, but to get them to Christ and then build off of that towards a response. Paul said, “I come to preach Christ crucified” and yes he did baptize, but that wasn’t his point. Baptism is like a door on a journey that you must open to get to the other side, but it isn’t the point of the journey.

  10. Monty says:

    “As Jesus said he will not be the judge of man, the word of God will be the judge of man.”

    Jesus is the Judge of all mankind as Abraham referred to God. God the Father turns the judgement over to God(the Son)who is the Judge of men(Acts 17:31, 2 Timothy 1:4,8, 2 Corinthians 5:11) by or through his word. And there is nothing contradictory in any of that. God judges, Jesus judges, the Word judges. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. No more for now.

  11. laymond says:

    Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Sorry Monty, I couldn’t resist.

  12. Chris says:

    Laymond,

    This was written by Wayne Jackson of the Christian Courier. I believe he is/was Church of Christ.

    Is if appropriate to worship Jesus?

    “Some of the songs we sing in worship address Christ. Is it appropriate to worship Jesus?”

    It is not surprising that some cultists, who deny the deity of Christ, should eschew the worship of the Lord.

    What is shocking is the fact that some—who are quite sincere, but who ought to know better, and hopefully will learn better—are expressing themselves in opposition to the idea that Christ is worthy of worship. One man has compiled a significant list of songs which he feels ought to be expunged from church hymnals because they address Christ in sentiments of worship. In fact, a recently-published hymnal has removed those songs which reflect any direct address to the Savior!

    Is the criticism valid? We confidently deny that it is.

    (1) A divine being, i.e., one who possesses the nature of deity, is worthy of worship. Both Testaments repeatedly affirm this concept (see Psalm 18:3; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 22:9). If it is alleged that only the Father is under consideration in such passages, we reply that such is an unwarranted assertion which not only lacks proof, it contradicts other biblical references.

    The truth is, God, as a being, is deserving of praise. If it is the case that Christ is divine (John 1:1; 20:29; Hebrews 1:8), and if deity is worthy of worship, then it follows that Christ is worthy of Christian praise.

    (2) During his earthly ministry, Jesus frequently allowed himself to be worshiped. There are numerous passages which portray the Lord in this light (see Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; Mark 5:6-7; John 9:35-38). It will not do to argue that these texts only show that some merely “reverenced” Jesus in much the same way one would honor any important dignitary.

    Consider, for instance, the case of the disciples’ demeanor after Jesus had walked upon the Sea of Galilee. When the Lord entered the boat, these men “worshipped him, saying, Of a truth you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33). They were honoring him as a divine being—that is beyond dispute.

    Further it is not without great significance that when folks bowed before the Lord and worshiped him, in not a single case did he ever rebuke the worshipers and suggest that he was unworthy of such adoration. Christ thus stands in dramatic contrast to Peter, who refused worship (Acts 10:25-26), and even to angels, who similarly did not allow themselves to be so revered (Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9).

    (3) Even the angels worship Christ. In one of his foundational arguments designed to show the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old, the writer of Hebrews affirms that all of the angels (through whom the Mosaic law came) worship Christ (the author of the new law): “Let all the angels of God worship him” (1:6).

    Since angels worship Christ, and as we are “lower” than they (Hebrews 2:7), it follows that our worship of the Lord is entirely appropriate. Surely no one can carefully study the fifth chapter of the book of Revelation and not see that the Lamb of God is worthy of the worship of the entire creation. In fact, Jesus is given the same sort of adoration as the Father (see 5:13b).

    (4) Paul explicitly states that Christ is so exalted that, in his name “every knee should bow” and every tongue confess that he is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11). The reference to bowing the knee is an obvious allusion to worship (cf. Isaiah 45:23; Romans 11:4).

    Clearly, Christ is worthy of worship. Those who are voicing objections to such are in error.

    SCRIPTURE REFERENCES: Psalm 18:3; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 22:9; John 1:1, 20:29; Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20; Mark 5:6-7; John 9:35-38; Matthew 14:33; Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9; Hebrews 2:7; Philippians 2:10-11; Isaiah 45:23; Romans 11:4

  13. Dwight says:

    There is worship and then there is worship. Jesus deferred worship to God, generally, but not all worship is the same. Worship is bowing down. We bow down to Jesus as the savior, but then again he is our brother, Interestingly the brothers of Joseph bowed down before Joseph. Jesus never took on the role of or glory of God the Father, but He did accept praise and worship as the Son of God and of the Godhead.
    Christ has a multi-faceted approach in that while God and worthy of worship, his main point in his life was of service to those who should be under him. The Son of God washed the feet of those who were lower than him in all ways, so how can we not worship and praise Jesus as this praise and worship will be reflected back to His Father and ours. We are not worthy, but God is.

    I admit that we will be judged by the word of God to the extent that we defy God’s word and or do God’s word, but I have been under the impression that we would be judged not only according to God’s justice, but also according to His mercy and grace, meaning that while we might mess up, our desire for God and our good deeds and love and compassion for our neighbors and those in need would be taken into account. Maybe not.
    If David was just judged by his sins, then he would not be a man after God’s own heart, but God can see deeper. He saw his desire for Him that had no limits in the Law.
    God’s word might tell us to do good, but it isn’t specific to as what good we can only do or can’t do and this leaves room for our actions and behavior that aren’t written in stone, but are written in heaven.
    In this way I believe God will judge us.

  14. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Chris,

    Wayne and I disagree on many things, but we agree on this one. I’m particularly convicted in light of my recent studies showing Peter and Paul as referring to Jesus as Yahweh. That pretty much wraps up the debate and puts a bow on it, I think.

  15. Andrew says:

    I have had a thought about the “church of my childhood” for awhile now – It’s a scary thought – One that I couldn’t even bring myself to say…but Dwight said it first (maybe) so I’ll join in – I think many conservative churches are guilty of “Bible Worship” and not Deity Worship. Here is a for instance: A few weeks ago I went to a Men’s Day Lectureship to hear 4 sermons about men’s issues (feminism being one of them…story for another day). I wanted to test my theory that the Bible is worshiped more than Jesus. I set out to keep track of the number of times Jesus was mentioned in 4 sermons vs. the number of times “The Bible” was held aloft and thumped with vigor. I lost track of the “Bible” score when one preacher had the audience sing the B-I-B-L-E song twice. (No joke) All in all – Jesus was mentioned 3 times in 4 sermons. It was hardly inspiring.

  16. laymond says:

    As Dwight said there are many forms of worship but as Jesus said there is only one due worship as God. Jesus was worshiped as God’s son, and as king of the Jews, but never as God.

    Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
    Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

  17. Larry Cheek says:

    Jay,
    As I read some of the comments explaining that we can worship the Bible and supposedly honor it as being our savior instead of Christ. I remembered that Christ made a comment with similar context.
    Joh 5:39-40 ESV You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, (40) yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
    I thought the context there was directed to The Bible, but Jesus was addressing the Jews and he was referring to the scriptures that were available to them. This becomes interesting because Jesus mentions to their thinking that they will receive (eternal life) from them. Yet, (eternal) is never found in the OT in reference to life. The closest resemblance is this one message in Daniel.
    Dan 12:2 ESV And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    The OT is almost completely silent about life after death and I do not find a reference in The OT which indicates the they would have a reason to be expecting eternal life.
    So was Jesus addressing the same thoughts that are being expressed now about The NT teachings.
    Yet, another thought comes to me. Notice, the references to the power of the (Word and that it really is the Savior, it is impossible to separate the Word from the human Jesus) Christ was the Word before he was human. The human (Christ) came here to die for mankind, but his death would be worthless without (The Word) produced by him for our instructions.
    Mat 4:4 ESV But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'”
    Mar 4:14 ESV The sower sows the word.
    Mar 4:33 ESV With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it.
    Mar 7:13 ESV thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
    Luk 4:32 ESV and they were astonished at his teaching, for his word possessed authority.
    Luk 8:11 ESV Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
    Luk 8:21 ESV But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
    Luk 11:28 ESV But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
    Joh 1:1 ESV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14 ESV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
    Joh 5:24 ESV Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
    Joh 5:38 ESV and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
    Joh 8:31 ESV So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
    Joh 8:51 ESV Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
    Joh 10:35 ESV If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
    Joh 12:48 ESV The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
    I found so many references to the (Word) being the communication link between our Savior and us that I had to stop posting them.

    The problem with the study of the Word is when we attempt to distort the context into something that supports our concepts, in place of listening to the author of the message. Is there really an existence of the Spirit of Christ that we can worship, while not holding the Word of that Spirit in the same place of honor (worship)? It sounds like many want to separate the Word from Christ as if it is not his. We are definitely not to worship the messengers who delivered the Word. But, to refuse to believe that The Word is not Christ, would be to reject both.

  18. Dwight says:

    The problem I see is that we often concentrate on the words and forget the story and the message itself. We lose context. The word came to man, was Jesus, but the word told the story of Jesus and grace and mercy and love and justice by the creator, God. I would gather there is a difference between the Word and words.
    The words explained the Word of God, Jesus, who was and is the savior of mankind.
    The words, are not the savior of mankind.
    If we read the words they are not to remain in our head, but to produce action…the same actions that Jesus did…that the Word did.
    The Word that came down was a message of hope and reconciliation with God and not just words.
    We must remember that much of the scriptures were kept and passed on orally. Not many had a written copy of the OT, as it was kept by the priest and even the NT was a scarce commodity for a long time. It probably caused them to fight less over the words and keep the meaning intact. We often take the written word for granted. But we shouldn’t take the message for granted.

  19. Monty says:

    Finding verses that seem to suggest different things doesn’t mean we get to pick the one that fits our point of view, but it does behoove us to see how the differences can be reconciled so that they are not contradicting each other. Jesus is the judge of man, he will judge everyone one of us scripture plainly says this, his words will judge us. That is not a contradiction where we must pit the two against each other. Laymond, if you gave your child a command to take out the trash by the time you get home or else expect discipline. Who is it that is going to judge whether or not your child obeyed? You are. By what standard are you using? Your word. In a sense it is your word “take out the trash or else” that is the basis of the judgment. Who is imposing the sentencing and the carrying out of the punishment of disobeying your word? You are! Also, when Jesus came the first time, he didn’t come to punish or condemn. But when he returns, it will be a different story. HIs word will condemn the lost, and he will surely be the administrator of that condemnation.

  20. laymond says:

    Chris, and Jay If brother Jackson is argueing that the man Jesus was deity from the time he was implanted into the womb until he was called to heaven please explain the following.Was there two gods living in one body.

    The word “Godhead” is used only three times in the bible, and then only in the KJV. all other versions use the word God or deity, or divine.

    Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to

    think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and

    man’s device.
    NIV
    “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being

    is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.

    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are

    clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal

    power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    NIV
    For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power

    and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has

    been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    NIV
    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
    Col 2:10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over
    every power and authority.

    If Jesus was Deity from the beginning What does Col 1:19, and Col 2:9 mean?

  21. Dwight says:

    Monty, I agree. Being judged by God and the word, which came from God, does not contradict each other. And yet the fact that we are under mercy and grace, means that we have a way out of damnation in the word if we take it. If we committed sin, as we all do, that should immediately damn us and it does, but we can ask and be forgiven as well, so the damnation no longer applies. But of course this is also written in the word as well.
    But it is God I worship, because He has given us Jesus and His word.

    The very term “son of God” indicates that Jesus had and has the nature of God. In John it relates that Jesus was with God from the beginning and is God and came down in the form of Man “took on flesh”. The reason that he was killed was that he dared to call Himself the Son of God, meaning that he was God in nature. Even though this was prophesied, the man standing before them hardly looked like he was a God or of God.
    One of the interesting thing that I have heard different thoughts on is that Jesus didn’t express His power until after he was baptized and the HS came upon Him. Was he somehow limited in his earthly form before that…maybe, but the fact that God said at that time, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” indicates that Jesus was His son, of which God never said that to anyone else. We might be sons of God, but we are grafted on and inheritors, not by blood.

  22. Dwight says:

    Even know that the word has qualities I still resist applying the qualities of God to the word. The Word was Jesus, because he was the messenger of it. Most if not all of the times in the scripture “the word” is given a teller of.
    Gen.15:1 “the word of the Lord”, Psalms “Thy word is lamp unto my feet”, addressed to God argues that the word is from God. Heb.4:12 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword.”
    The word has ownership and deliverance and doesn’t exist on its own by its own and for its own. It doesn’t represent itself, but the author and the authors will.
    And like baptism I think we should attempt to relay the arrow backwards to the ones who empower them, instead of making them sound like they are self-sufficient in and of themselves.
    I also resist trying to place my self in the place of Jesus or the apostles as I don’t speak with the authority of the apostles as I don’t have the HS guidance they did. I might read the scriptures, but understanding and applying them is another animal to where even scholars disagree. I might have the word/truth in my hand, but relaying the meaning of the word/truth comes down to my understanding of it, whether right or wrong. I can only hope that I get it right most of the time.
    Just my thoughts.

  23. laymond says:

    Jesus was neither God nor the word of God, Jesus was sent by God to deliver the “word of God” unto the world.

    Jesus speaking to God of his apostles .

    Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    And later to the apostles.

    Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    Does this mean that the apostles were deity also? I believe Jesus said “they were first yours, and you gave them to me”

  24. Dwight says:

    Laymond, what do you make of John 1 which states Jesus was the word and the word was with God and that the word came down to man in the flesh.
    I can say God is love, not only because the scriptures states it, but because God although being much more than what love is limited to is the embodiment of what love is. While it is true that Jesus was sent by God, Jesus was the Son of God, thus the perfect messenger because He knew His fathers will. The Son has the nature of the Father, even though they are two different personalities.
    Therefore it is not a contradiction to say that Jesus is the Word, because he embodies the will of God. His message was much more than what he said, but also what he showed in his life and death. He not only delivered the word, but himself to the world.

  25. Johnny Turner says:

    Laymond doesn’t believe Jesus is God incarnate, the rest of us do. No one is changing anyone’s minds. Can’t we accept the stalemate and quit beating the issue?

  26. Dwight says:

    Yeah, I guess I have had a hard time absorbing what I thought most people, besides the Jews, the Muslims and the Mormons, understood…that Jesus was indeed God in that He had the nature of God from the beginning and He took on the nature of man, while still being divine. Time to move on.

  27. laymond says:

    Dwight said” Laymond, what do you make of John 1 which states Jesus was the word and the word was with God and that the word came down to man in the flesh.”
    Dwight can you please point me to where John said “Jesus was the word” ?

    Dwight I fully understand that the word was made flesh when the spirit of God indwelled the person of Jesus immediately after his baptism. but that did not make Jesus the word that was with God in the beginning. it simply means what Paul said.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, (him meaning his son Jesus.)
    Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    The word came down to man at the baptism of Jesus. along with God’s other powers, without limits .

  28. Monty says:

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    The mighty God, The everlasting Father, from birth.
    “the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God. ” “11For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

    Jesus, “Lord at they birth,” as the song goes. The word of God made flesh. Glory to God in the highest!

  29. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    You said, “Dwight I fully understand that the word was made flesh when the spirit of God indwelled the person of Jesus immediately after his baptism. but that did not make Jesus the word that was with God in the beginning. it simply means what Paul said.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, (him meaning his son Jesus.)”

    I found this interesting, I really did not understand that you believed that God was dwelling in Jesus as he died on the cross. If he did not can you identify when he left the body that you now have shown that he inhabited. All his fullness and the Spirit of God, sounds like everything to me.

  30. laymond says:

    Larry, I suspect this is when Jesus realized he was alone.

    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    I don’t believe there was any way Jesus’ body could die as long as the spirit of God indwelled it.

  31. laymond says:

    Monty, is this what definite proof looks like, “he will be called” and songs written by man.
    I have been called a few names (by self declared Christians) that I sure hope don’t truly apply to me.

  32. Dwight says:

    We are made in the likeness of God, in the sense we have a spirit, as God is Spirit, but we deny the Spirit over the flesh. If we can have a Spirit and be in the flesh and die in the flesh, then why can’t the Spiritual God be made in the flesh and die as well in the flesh. If God can make the world in just one breath, then God is able to do anything.
    John 1 is using what is called an “progression of thought” and the subject is Jesus.
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.”
    The Word is Jesus and if not who?
    The text then switches to that person as “the light”.
    Then it switches back to “the Word.”
    “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
    This Word became flesh…so either it is actual scripture in the flesh or it is that which was with God from the beginning in the flesh.
    John states that Jesus was before Him, even though technically Jesus was born in the flesh after him.
    This concept isn’t complicated. Although Jesus defers from himself as God the Father, Jesus never backs down from called God or deity. He was crucified because “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
    They understood that to declare God as your father meant that you had the inhererent nature of your father.
    God allowed His Son to die and then raised Him from the grave in glory. There is no contradiction.

  33. Monty says:

    Laymond,

    The lyrics of that song are just a retelling of what the Bible said. “He will be called”–how else were they supposed to write the future tense? It just meant he already was who he would be called later. The angels sang to the shepherds on the night of his birth, not because of who he would one day be, but because of who he already was(the Lords Anointed). I guess your interpretation is that he would be called that-someday- but not until that day would he actually become the mighty God and Everlasting Father? Or do you deny that he is the mighty God and Everlasting Father? Do you believe the prophecy was quoting folks who referred to Jesus that way as in error? Do you even believe any of the prophecy, like, being born of a virgin? Is that what people believed in error?

  34. laymond says:

    Dwight said “The Word is Jesus and if not who?”

    Dwight can you read Genesis 1 and tell me the word God spoke was a “who”.

  35. laymond says:

    Monty asked, “Or do you deny that he is the mighty God and Everlasting Father?”

    Monty do you believe Jesus was lying when he said to Mary Magdalene.
    Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Surely you don’t believe Jesus was accending to himself.

  36. Dwight says:

    Laymond, you are confusing an embodiment of a concept with a thing. Jesus was not “a word”, but “the Word” as the messenger of God. He was also referred to as “the Light” in John 1. Jesus wasn’t “a light”, but “the light”, because He was the light of the world. We are told that “God is love”. God isn’t the actual thing of love, but is rather an embodiment of the concept of love in that he is the ultimate in what loving is. Elvis was called “the King”, not because he was indeed “a king”, but because he was considered the highest in rock-n-roll royalty.
    Let’s see Jesus referred to himself as “the door” and “the way” and “living water”, etc, not because he was actually those things in physicality, but because he was the embodiment of those things in relation to man and the world.
    The progression of thought in John 1 indicates that Jesus was with God, was God and was sent by God into the world as “the Word” and as “the Light” in a fleshly body.

  37. Dwight says:

    Jesus never referred to himself as “the Father”. When he was baptized God, the Father, said, “…my Son in whom I am well pleased”. Jesus prayed to His Father. Jesus made a distinction between Himself and the Father in terms of position and authority at all times, even while taking on and accepting the nature of being God.
    Your argument would have your father being of a different nature than you are as the son of your father, which is what most, if not all, of us are talking about when we refer to God the Father and Jesus the Son as God. They share the same nature of deity, but are not the same persons. Just as you and your father share the same nature of being human, but are two different people. Jesus was made a “little lower than the angels”, to reflect that he was higher than the angels and he even stated he could command the angels to protect Him. Who could do that but God?

  38. laymond says:

    Dwight said, “Laymond, you are confusing an embodiment of a concept with a thing.”

    I don’t think I am the one confused here.
    Dwight if you are saying that Jesus was with God in the beginning as a plan/idea/concept, then we are closer to an agreement than I once thought. That makes Jesus a creation, not a God/deity.

    And I agree the embodiment of that plan was accomplished at Jesus baptism.

  39. laymond says:

    “Jesus was made a “little lower than the angels”, to reflect that he was higher than the angels and he even stated he could command the angels to protect Him. Who could do that but God?”

    I believe you are insinuating, something you can’t prove. If you are saying this proves that Jesus was once higher than the angels. As for commanding the angels into battle I believe it is said God gave him authority over heaven and earth.

  40. Dwight says:

    When I read John, it argues that Jesus, the person, was with God from the beginning, but in relation to man he is the word, the light, the way, the door, the savior and more importantly God in the flesh, etc.
    Your argument would almost argue that since “God is love”, then God didn’t really exist until man came along to be loved by God. He was a concept until man realized the concept and then God became relevant.
    Laymond, you play upon that which we do not know, not that which we are told. Where did Jesus come from…was he created by God the Father and if so when? But then again was God created and if so when?
    All we know is what we are told and John 1 tells a lot.
    The jest of the scriptures, John 1, for one indicates that Jesus shares the nature of God the Father, as a natural son would share the nature of their father. It is possible that God, since He can do anything, at one time created another being like Him, but who was subservient to Him, but this still doesn’t argue that Jesus wasn’t of the nature of God. Jesus being God or of His nature doesn’t contradict the Father as being God.
    John 1:2 “HE was in the beginning with God.” Not the concept, but He. The He is Jesus.

    Heb.1 “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”
    Jesus, not only the Son, but was He who helped create the worlds and came down to speak to us and was received up and was an inheritor.
    The irony is that God had at one time, before Jesus spoke to man, but not as man, not through the eyes of man, not with the compassion and flesh of man.

  41. Monty says:

    Laymond,

    I will answer your questions if you answer mine. If we aren’t (you) aren’t going to respond to questions ,all we do is chase our tails, and serious discussion is futile. I’ll repeat an earlier remark: “Finding verses that seem to suggest different things doesn’t mean we get to pick the one that fits our point of view, but it does behoove us to see how the differences can be reconciled so that they are not contradicting each other.” For example: the Messiah(Jesus) was called mighty God and Everlasting Father as words put into the mind of Isaiah from God. So, is He the Everlasting Father? Yes? No? Not sure? If that doesn’t jive with your understanding that Jesus called God, father,you simply dismiss the prophecy. But that isn’t Bible study, it’s having your mind made up and resolving not to entertain how they could both be right, because in your head all you see is a contradiction, so you go into default mode rather than try to reason how they can both be true, unless you believe the Bible contradicts truth you need to become a more critical thinker.

    Jesus can be referred to as Everlasting Father by men, by virtue of his creating everything. He is the Life giver, nothing was made without him. As far as the relationship in the Godhead, each person has their role. For Jesus to refer to the Father doesn’t affect that Jesus is still God and Lord of all creation and that he is everlasting as he referred to himself when he said, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. No one else but God(deity-don’t get hung up on whether it’s the Father or the Son) has that title. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith, the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first and the last, and beside me there is no God.” Jesus clearly refers to himself by that title to John in Revelation. How can Jesus do this if he isn’t deity? Well he does because he is. He and the Father are one God. Jesus isn’t inferior to God the Father in any way. He is of the same substance. He isn’t created, he has always been there, with God(the Father) in relationship forever in eternity. How else can you explain Philippians 2: 6 Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.? Paul said, Jesus was equal to God(the Father). He was in the form of God(meaning he was God). Who in their right mind would consider themselves equal with God, except Satan? It’s either blasphemous or it’s true. Which do you think?

    I have tried to answer or address head on the things you bring up. I would appreciate that you do the same with me.

  42. Dwight says:

    The fact that Jesus called himself the Son of God meant that he had the nature of God and this ruffled the feathers of the Jewish leaders who thought it heretical and if would have been if it weren’t true, which he showed by all of the miracles he did. One of the last straws was when he forgave sins, which they knew only God could do.
    Since Jesus placing himself on the level of God didn’t impress the Romans who didn’t believe in the Hebrew God, they argued that he was trying to take over the Rome or go against Rome by being a rebel and calling himself a King. But this only went so far, but it went far enough to get Jesus before those who could sentence him to death. And then the forced the hand politically.
    The point is that the Jewish leaders knew where Jesus was clearly headed with his teachings about Himself in relation to God. This, even though they were looking for a savior. Jesus just didn’t look or act like one who would subdue the world, much less Rome and establish a New Kingdom that would last forever. It happened by God’s will through His Son Jesus.

  43. laymond says:

    Monty, I would be glad to address the places in the New Testament where Jesus is called, “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” but I couldn’t find any.
    I did find this on Mighty God, Luk 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”

    Monty asked ” So, is He the Everlasting Father? ” NO and neither is he the MIGHTY GOD.

    Monty said, “Jesus is still God and Lord of all creation and that he is everlasting as he referred to himself when he said, I am the , the beginning and the end.”
    Jesus was lord over all because God placed everything under him. ask Paul everything will be returned to God. If not already.
    Monty, Alpha and Omega simply means “the beginning, and end” it has nothing to do with “everlasting” simply put it means the only one. none other like me. I believe that puts both Jesus and God in categories of one.

  44. laymond says:

    Sorry Monty, I found another question I did not address, so I think I will let Jesus answer it also.

    “Who in their right mind would consider themselves equal with God, except Satan? It’s either blasphemous or it’s true. Which do you think? ”

    Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Monty, If I missed any of your questions, it was not purposeful .

  45. Monty says:

    Laymond,

    Millions upon millions have called the Christ : “Wonderful, “Counselor”, and their “mighty God” “Prince of Peace”, just because you refuse to address him that way, doesn’t mean he isn’t. The prophecy said he would be called that and either the prophecy is true or throw out everything we believe about the scriptures. The government is upon his back, not an earthly government, not an earthly kingship limited to a geographical area, but rulership of the universe(all the earth) and the spiritual realm. Our fight is not against flesh and blood.. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world or my servants would fight. What Kingdom was he ruler of Laymond? What servants? The 12? The 120? Ha! Was he not ruler of angels? Did not demons obey him? And what about the hearts and minds of all who would ever believe? Is he not their King and Sovereign Lord? Is he not yours Laymond?

    Jesus told the 11 “I confer on you a kingdom.” Did Jesus actually have a kingdom he could do that with? Is he not KIng? Those titles above are names one refers to a King with, or to a god, a Sovereign Lord. Jesus was not a Sovereign Lord while on earth in any physical sense. But many did call him, Son of God, Lord, Savior, Messiah, Lamb of God. Many fell at his feet and worshiped him. He never refused their worship. Timothy called him “my God.” No good Jewish boy would dare refer to a mere man that way. The N.T. writers used Yaweh when referring to him on a couple of occasions, as Jay pointed out. Maybe they weren’t really inspired? Maybe they didn’t know what they were doin, referring to Jesus with the name used in the O.T. for God? Maybe the angels, the 24 elders, the 4 living creatures gathered around the throne who worshiped the Lamb who was slain(Jesus) lost their minds as they worshiped the Lamb. They sang the same thing to Jesus they did to “him that liveth forever and ever.” If they were worshipping God, they were also worshipping Jesus. You can’t say they were just “applauding Jesus, but were truly worshipping God. If they were not worshipping Jesus, they were not worshipping God. Maybe they were just applauding both of them and not worshipping either?

    Revelation speaks of Co-Rulership. How can that be? Revelation 21:22 “And I saw no temple there, for the Lord God almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Both are the temple. 23) And the city had no need of sun, nether of the moon, to shine in it. for the glory of the God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Both lighten the Holy city. Chapter 23:1 And he showed me a pure river of life , clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Again Co-Rulership. Vs.3 and there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it. Again Co-rulership, the throne is spoken of as belonging to both. “And his servants shall serve him.” Him who? Well it is left ambiguous, because to worship God is to worship the Lamb. Both sit on the throne. They are the Godhead. In verse 6, the angel tells John “the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants…” and low and behold what does Jesus say in verse 16? “I Jesus have sent mine angel.” Sounds familiar right? God sends HIs angel and Jesus sends his angel, maybe they have their own designated angels, or just maybe, to belong to one is to belong to the other? They all belong to Jesus(God).

    Revelation 17:14 “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is the Lord of Lords, and King of kings. Laymond, who is the Lord of lords? Jesus? God? Both, because they are both God(deity and one God in 3 persons)? The way you believe Jesus and God can’t both be Lord of lords and King of kings.

    Laymond, there are other passages in Revelation that speak to God and Christ sharing rulership. The Lamb is worthy. He left his throne in heaven, descended, was found clothed in human flesh, lived among us, died for our sins, overcame death, and ascended back to his rightful place at the right hand of God the Father. His glory and majesty restored him. The beauty of the gospel is that God did this. Not some man hand picked by God. Not some created messenger. But God in the person of the Son (who is deity). the Father sent, and Jesus(the word made flesh) came, “here am I,” or Here I AM send me. God sent his Son from heaven, he didn’t make some human into his son. Only that which is God is worthy to be praised and magnified as God. To not honor the Son, is to not honor the Father.

  46. laymond says:

    I hope you feel better now, but your rant does not justify your beliefs. God bless

  47. laymond says:

    Monty said, “Millions upon millions have called the Christ : “Wonderful, “Counselor”, and their “mighty God” “Prince of Peace”,

    Monty, how do you know this, it is not written in scripture. and I doubt you have personally heard
    Millions upon millions say this.

  48. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    So, are you affirming that you understand that God’s Spirit was in Christ before he died? If you are than you must also have a beginning point for his Spirit dwelling there. We are all sure that you would verify that his Spirit was not there before the baptism, so then following baptism and during all his teaching and ridicule God’s Spirit was dwelling in Jesus. The Spirit only left him while he died. Why would we believe that the Spirit did not return into Jesus when he was risen from the dead? This would be the Same Spirit which proclaimed through Jesus before he died these words, “Joh 14:6 ESV Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
    Yet, you desire to throw out the Spirit’s Words and attempt to bypass Jesus to get to the Father (God).
    How can you identify that when Jesus made this statement that it was not God’s Spirit speaking?

  49. laymond says:

    Yes Larry the bible gives us a beginning, and an end time as to the length of time that God’s spirit, or spirits dwelled with Jesus. Maybe indwelled is the wrong word to use. Jhn 1:32 said it abode upon him, not within him. And Mat 27:46 tells us to the hour when the spirit of God was withdrawn.
    And Isa 11:2 names the spirits that are to rest upon him.

    Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    As we see in both Isa 11:2 and Jhn 1:32 the spirits abode upon him, so it might be better to say the spirit dwelt with him rather than within him.

    Larry said, “Yet, you desire to throw out the Spirit’s Words and attempt to bypass Jesus to get to the Father (God).”

    I don’t understand how you come up with that, but you could not be more wrong. I simply accept Jesus as the bible describes him, while others tend to elevate him to God status with out a shred of proof.
    The way we get to God is to follow Jesus’ example, and if Jesus was not human we could not follow his example, because we can not become gods.

  50. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    So while God’s Spirit was abiding upon Jesus, Jesus made this statement that is not correct?
    “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” God did not reprimand him for taking authority which he was not given! He just placed himself like a bridge across an impassable body of water, no other way is possible to get to the Father without going through him. He is the way, not the example that he lived. If you attempted to live like him would you also call God your father in the same power that he did? In fact you can not live like him or you to would have never sinned.
    When you make a statement like, “The way we get to God is to follow Jesus’ example.” You are totally denying the words of Jesus and God’s Spirit. Think about that seriously, if you live the example that he displayed in his life and were able to come to the Father in the status as he mentioned above, you would deny any need for his death and he could not be your savior. Because, you saved yourself by the life that you lived. Jesus did not need the grace of God to cover his sins because he had not sinned. You cannot live a life without sin therefore you need the savior (Jesus). God will not accept you with any sin and God does not forgive you of any sins unless you submit to his son (Jesus). In your statement you are not only refusing Jesus as your Lord you are denying God’s message for salvation.

  51. laymond says:

    When you make a statement like, “The way we get to God is to follow Jesus’ example.” You are totally denying the words of Jesus and God’s Spirit.

    Larry, I wonder just what Jesus meant when he said “follow me”

    Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
    Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
    Jhn 13:36 ¶ Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
    Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

  52. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    No one can accept Jesus as their savior and not follow him and get to God or the rewards that are given by God, but anyone can follow him or his example of life and never accept him as Lord and Savior. But, Jesus while the Spirit of was upon could not lie, and the statement issued by both says that, ” No one comes to the Father except through me”. My point or rather the point of the message given by both God and Jesus is that unless any human accepts Jesus as his/her Savior they cannot come to God.
    You asked me a question, “Larry, I wonder just what Jesus meant when he said “follow me”. In the multiple verses you supplied to show where you think that is several of them give a clear answer to the place in the future, notice.
    Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
    Jhn 13:36 ¶ Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
    These are the only verses in your lists that speak about a time other than the present.
    The servant of Jesus will be where where he is (we all can verify where he is today), but no one who has not been Jesus servant will be there according to, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If anyone could possibly be there in another fashion that would be a direct denial of this scripture. Peter was told that he could not follow Jesus now, meaning that he could not go where Jesus was going then, but Jesus said to him that he would follow afterwards, meaning that what Peter was doing now would insure that he would be with him afterwards. When, after the death of Peters body, he would be with Jesus in the afterlife.
    Again, do you believe that Peter could have followed Jesus without accepting him as his Savior?
    Why would you want to profess to follow Jesus if you did not believe that he was the Messiah or Savior who was promised by God.
    How could anyone expect to receive blessings which God will bestow upon the followers of Jesus his Son if they refuse to accept him as their Savior?

  53. laymond says:

    Larry, you build a straw man, then jump on him with both feet. No one can claim to be a Christian, without believing in Christ. Without believing that Jesus was the anointed one of God. A man hand picked to be God’s sacrificial lamb. The perfect sacrifice without spot, or flaw. As Monty said the fulfillment of a plan.

    When we look at the story of Jesus’ birth we would be foolish to say Jesus was not a creation of God, created for the salvation of mankind . That said it does not take away any part of the glory of Jesus , God’s only begotten son.

    When John the baptist first saw Jesus in the crowd what did he call him ?
    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
    John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Larry, whos plan was it, that was described in Isaiah 11 ?

  54. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    You are verifying everything I have said, but I have been of the opinion from multiple of your post that you do not consider that Jesus is your Savior. It’s almost as if he is the a deliverer of a plan from God and you want to be a participant of the plan by following him, but you are not required to submit to Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
    So to get to the source, rather than beating around the bush, is Jesus your Savior? That would also be to say the link between you and God?

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. This verse would not apply in the way you are trying to apply it, God was the only savior to the Israelites prior to The Messiah. Jesus The Messiah was not available to The Jews yet.

  55. laymond says:

    Larry for be it from me to explain how and why Jesus had to die in order to save mankind from the fires of hell. eternal death the price of sin. But I don’t have to explain why, I just have to believe God knew best. and this was the way God chose . If God saw no other way to accomplish what he wanted, I am not one to question his actions. Or if he saw this as one way of many available, I still don’t question his choice. being a lowly human being I don’t understand why God being who he is could not just declare everyone forgiven. But I believe Jesus asked that very question and evidently was told there was no other way, than he taste the bitter cup of death.
    so yes I believe the death of Jesus saved all who follow and believe in him. I can’t believe anyone follows him who don’t believe in him.
    Larry, I believe you are wrong about Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    I believe if you are right God may have added the words “right now” or “maybe latter”.

  56. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    I would suggest you listen to Jesus’s Words.
    Mat 7:21-23 ESV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ (23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
    Can you show us that these men did not follow Jesus? As you made this statement, “so yes I believe the death of Jesus saved all who follow and believe in him. I can’t believe anyone follows him who don’t believe in him”. Upon what basis would you say that Jesus did not accept their following as a reason for him to save them? Did they believe as you have suggested? We can even know that they believed that he was Lord and was allowing them to perform mighty works in his name. Or were they able to do these mighty works in Jesus name, because it was to honor Jesus, but they really did not believe and count Jesus to be their Savior? There is not a hint that they really believed he was Lord and Savior. They were basing their state of relationship with Jesus by the actions they were accomplishing by using his name.

    Following means nothing unless you truly believe that he is your Lord and Savior. You see in the passages above Jesus states that he never knew them. Why, because they never committed their relationship to him. He has promised that he would not refuse anyone who truly committed their life to him.

    Now, let us look at the other statement, “Larry, I believe you are wrong about Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    I believe if you are right God may have added the words “right now” or “maybe latter”.
    God did explain the “right now” or “maybe later”, he is very specific Notice the communications in scripture..
    Mary was speaking in this first occurrence of Savior found in NT.
    (Luk 1:46 ESV) And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord,
    (Luk 1:47 ESV) and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
    Angles announced the first declaration of his birth and status of Savior.
    (Luk 2:11 ESV) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    (Joh 4:42 ESV) They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
    Inspired men continued the testimony that he was Savior.
    (Act 5:31 ESV) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
    (Act 13:23 ESV) Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.
    (Eph 5:23 ESV) For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
    (Php 3:20 ESV) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    Titus seems to imply both God and Jesus is identified as Savior.
    (1Ti 1:1 ESV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
    (1Ti 2:3 ESV) This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
    (1Ti 4:10 ESV) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
    (2Ti 1:10 ESV) and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
    (Tit 1:3 ESV) and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
    (Tit 1:4 ESV) To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
    (Tit 2:10 ESV) not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
    (Tit 2:13 ESV) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
    (Tit 3:4 ESV) But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
    (Tit 3:6 ESV) whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    Then, he is not claiming that God is the only Savior.
    Then Peter is bestowing Jesus as Savior.
    (2Pe 1:1 ESV) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
    (2Pe 1:11 ESV) For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    (2Pe 2:20 ESV) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
    (2Pe 3:2 ESV) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
    (2Pe 3:18 ESV) But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
    John states it unquestionably.
    (1Jn 4:14 ESV) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
    Can Jude really modify all the other text into God being the Savior and Jesus being Lord?
    (Jud 1:25 ESV) to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

    There is more than adequate documentation in the scriptures of NT to verify that God is the only Savior.
    So again can you submit to Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Just following Jesus is not a commitment to him. Anyone can follow Jesus even without “faith in him”.

  57. laymond says:

    Larry, no matter how many verses of scripture you or I quote we can never do a better job than Paul did in 1 Corinthians – Chapter 15 of explaining the relationship of Father/God, and son/ Jesus and the results of that relationship on mankind.

    1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    If you really want to know who Jesus is, read the full chapter. and lets discuss what Paul said.
    No one I have talked to (who says Jesus is God) is interested in discussing this chapter.
    I can’ recall a time on this blog when the author discussed this chapter. Paul thought it important enough to write one of his longest chapters explaining it.

  58. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    I can agree that God is giving us the victory just as this verse you supplied states.
    1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
    Oh, by the way you are attempting to change the subject again, I am not attempting to try to convert you to the concept that Jesus is God and I know that you are fully aware that the messages that I have written and the scriptures I have supplied are not addressing that concept. What I am addressing is the fact that the only way to receive God grace and favor or acceptance is if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. In the last post there were 7 places where God was mentioned as Savior and 18 verses that reference Jesus as our Savior. This alone should be enough evidence for anyone to understand the Jesus is our Savior with the full authority to save any and everyone in the world. God has placed him in the position to be the only avenue for a sinner to ever be accepted by him. You on the other hand are indicating that you refuse to call on Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. You are placing Jesus as a subordinate to God. Which indicates that you are not trusting him to handle your relationship with God. The test that confirms this action is if a man will publicly confess that he is Lord and Savior. To my knowledge you have never confessed him, I know that is not important that have to know, but I know that it is important to your salvation. Because, all Christians in scriptures made that statement and were added to the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. I have shown you those in scripture who were following Jesus but not committed and what Jesus said to them. I really would not want to believe that you would be in the same category when Jesus administers judgement.

    Now, since you offered this verse as evidence that God is giving the victory.
    1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Did you by chance notice that the method which God is using is through the very man you don’t want to recognize in his position within this verse, “through our Lord Jesus Christ”. If you don’t submit to and allow him to represent you God will not provide you the victory.

  59. laymond says:

    Larry, I can’t imagine what I may have written that gave you the idea that I was
    unaccepting of Jesus as my lord, and God’s son. I have been going to the
    churches of Christ from my childhood with my mother, I must admit I was not
    baptized into the church until my later years. I took a very long time to think
    about it. The Idea of all scripture being inspired/whispered by God was a
    stumbling block, because there are so many scriptures that disagree with the
    other. And truthfully most are written by Paul. which of the following is inspired or
    can they both be?

    Is this inspired?
    1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an
    apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    NIV
    For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an
    apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    Or is this inspired?
    2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to
    have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest
    apostles, though I be nothing.
    NIV
    I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been
    commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even
    though I am nothing.

  60. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    To explain my doubting. I have noticed consistency as you comment about Jesus, you very cautiously do not capitalize the word “lord” when referring to Jesus. You also are very careful not to admit any equality between God and Jesus. Even while being prompted to call Jesus your Lord and Savior you manage to evade doing that by changing the subject matter in all kinds of ways. It is totally obvious that you believe that it would be a sin against God for you to call Jesus your Lord and Savior. You are ready to explain about your past history being faithful as you have aged. But, many men have been faithful to many a false doctrine easily identified in scriptures. The Jews tried very hard to remain faithful to their doctrines, and they were replaced by Jesus’s teachings. Those who still held to the old after the new was presented fell from God’s Grace. This is the exact parallel to the our time era, if you do not conform to newly learned truth you fall from Grace. We both know that there were many false teachings taught in The Church of Christ of the past.

  61. laymond says:

    1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    Larry, I don’t know about you, but this is the only question asked of the one being baptized in any church of Christ I ever attended.

  62. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    You are correct. But, did you notice how even this confession, tells of God dwelling in him (the person being baptized) and he in God?
    Your response continues to affirm that you refuse to call Jesus your Lord and Savior.
    God dwelling in the individual who was baptized does not exempt them from being saved by Jesus, The Savior. Jesus was not just the deliverer of the plan from God, He is the plan from God, no one can come to God except through him. He is the entry point, he is the mediator between man and God.

  63. laymond says:

    Larry, people see in scripture what they want to see, or what someone has told them they ought to see. The fact is the bible is not that hard to understand.
    Book report; God was alone, God created everything that was created either by his own hand or his spoken word. God created man in his own Image, and gave man his own breath. and man betrayed him. God tried different ways of bringing man back to him, even to the point of destroying all but one family. Evidence shows that even that did not work. God tried animal sacrifice, the taking of man’s best possessions did not work. So evidently punishment was not working. In order to not destroy all mankind only one option was left “Love” . God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. In the book of Isaiah God laid out his plan “love” in order to bring man back to God. He would send his servant with the message “of love”. Evidently his most loved servant, who came in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
    At the age of thirty Jesus was baptized of John the Baptist, and at that time God declared his servant to be his begotten Son. Jesus “the Son of God” preached the Gospel of God “the good news” to the people of the world while teaching his apostles to take over that mission when he had finished. Jesus finished the job given to him by his God, who now was his “Father” by declaration
    at his baptism. As the bible states “flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven” so just as we will be called to do Jesus had to be changed so he had to die and be raised a spirit.
    As I see it Jesus’ death and resurrection served multi purposes. defeat of sins and death,
    which is the price of sin. For those who believe the message, and obey the word of God, brought by God’s faithful servant, later to be declared God’s Son. I believe that all who serve until the end of this life will also be declared son’s of God. We have to believe In Jesus , to believe in the message. (not that hard to understand)

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