From the Comments: Aren’t the Scriptures All-Sufficient?

HolySpirit7Jeff R asked,

It’s the one’s that believe that this indwelling is personal and DIRECT, meaning that the Spirit directly influences them apart from God’s word that I have a problem with. They in effect are denying that the word of God is all sufficient. The Bible teaches us that it is. Why do people like this idea of a direct operation of the Spirit for mankind today?

Jeff argued from,

(2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 ESV)  16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,  17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.  

Reader Kevin responded (edited),

This passage doesn’t mean what you imply. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, stated that scripture is profitable for several things. He doesn’t claim that it’s all-sufficient.

Jeff, just think about the word “all.” It’s just not logical. Yes, scripture teaches us doctrine and instruction in righteous, which can lead to our being complete and equipped for every good work. But here is the point … scripture doesn’t make us complete. It doesn’t do works for us. It teaches us about prayer, but it doesn’t provide the benefits of prayer. It teaches us about sanctification, but it doesn’t provide sanctification. It teaches us about Christian fellowship, but it doesn’t provide Christian fellowship. The instructions to my entertainment system teaches me how to setup my DVR and remote, but it doesn’t record “The Walking Dead” for my viewing pleasure all by itself. There is no logical way that scripture can be ALL sufficient.

I added,

First, amen to Kevin’s comment re the all-sufficiency of scripture. The scripture makes no such claim for itself. Paul says that Scripture is “profitable.” I can find no claim the all-sufficiency of scripture.

In the Reformation, a slogan was adopted: sola scriptura. The scriptures only. And sometimes this was expressed as the “sufficiency” of scriptures — but what was meant was that the scriptures we have (the canon) are sufficient scriptures for the church. We don’t need to add the early church fathers, the apocrypha, or the church councils to the scriptures to have what we need as scriptures.

The great Reformers intensely believed in a personal indwelling Spirit. They never argued that the scriptures replaced the need for the Spirit, no more than they thought the scriptures replaced the need for sermons, Bible class lessons, or countless other things.

The flaw in your logic is the false assumption that the only role a personal indwelling can take is to create new scripture — which is a strawman assumption. While the Spirit certainly inspired the scriptures, this is not the only work the Spirit did or does.

Just consider —

(Rom. 12:6-8 ESV) 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

This is a list of gifts of the Spirit. And there’s not a word about “composing scripture” — even though this was written at the time scriptures were being composed. But what church doesn’t need the gift of service, of teaching, of exhortation, of contribution, of leadership, and mercy? These are gifts, not accomplishments.

While the scriptures unquestionably work in conjunction with the Spirit’s work (being the sword of the Spirit), there is more to becoming a leader in God’s church than reading the Bible (but reading the Bible is really important for leaders — but not all experts in the scriptures are leaders).

The words of the prophets can be scriptures, but we know from our Bibles that the OT and NT prophets said and did many things by the power of the Spirit that were never written down. The Spirit’s work includes but is far more than composing scriptures.

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About Jay F Guin

My name is Jay Guin, and I’m a retired elder. I wrote The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace about 18 years ago. I’ve spoken at the Pepperdine, Lipscomb, ACU, Harding, and Tulsa lectureships and at ElderLink. My wife’s name is Denise, and I have four sons, Chris, Jonathan, Tyler, and Philip. I have two grandchildren. And I practice law.
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35 Responses to From the Comments: Aren’t the Scriptures All-Sufficient?

  1. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    I don’t think anyone here would argue that scripture is sufficient for its purpose. Problems arise, however, when we insert words like “all”…much like Luther inserted the word “only” in the context of faith. I thought we had learned from our own lessons.

    In fact, “all sufficiency” logically implies that we don’t even need Christ or the gospel since scripture is sufficient for everything, hence the word all. What more does one need if they have all? And if you do need something else (eg Christ or prayer) then you clearly don’t have “all.”

    I think we should be very cautious about adding words like “all sufficiency” to our lexicon. It could be the first step toward idolatry.

  2. Price Futrell says:

    Jay, I believe you did a piece not long ago on prophesy as used in the local body versus prophesy or “inscripturation” for all men for all time… Big differences that I believe you pointed out. The Corinthian church members were gifted in prophesy, words of knowledge, etc., that could reveal the secrets of a person’s heart… obviously the OT scripture didn’t provide that information.. So the working of the HS in scripture shows us that His work isn’t limited to writing down rules and regulations…

  3. Mark says:

    The Scriptures are sufficient for righteousness, doing good, and teaching about God. However, I can see where having the Holy Spirit could help someone speaking (preaching) or talking to someone who is highly educated or simple. It is one thing to just read the verses and tell the person how plain the scripture is. It is another to explain its applicability in 1 or 2 sentences to the highly educated and then to the simple. The explanations that work for one group won’t likely work for the other. Being able to go between the groups is likely the work of the Holy Spirit.

  4. laymond says:

    What does the word sufficient mean. If one puts the word “all” in front of the word sufficient, does that change the word sufficient ?

    Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    If you don’t believe the writings of the apostles, those who Jesus trusted with finishing the job he began, those present in the day, how can you believe “whispering” in your ear, and how do you discern who is doing the whispering. ? Why do you believe something that is not backed by scripture .? if you believe the bible is not sufficient for salvation, what do you use as a guide ? your intuition , another’s opinion ? I would like to know. Is the bible just a per-primer , a starter, if we receive an indwelling , a spiritual guide from within , do we even need the written word.?

  5. Jeff Richardson says:

    But gentleman, we have the words of Christ, we have His teachings. The bible is all sufficient if we heed it as a light that shines in dark places. We have the prophetic word confirmed. 2 Peter 1:19. It will make us holy and righteous in God’s sight if we allow it to. “you therefore, beloved, since you know this before hand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked., but grow in the grace and KNOWLEDGE of our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” How do we grow in knowledge? How do we maintain our steadfastness? Where do we get this knowledge? If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God…” 1 Peter 4:11. Let us not confuse the Providence of God with the first century working of the H.S. God continues to work. Through providence, God no longer suspends natural law. The point would be, when and where God may have a hand involved, we will never know. For us, “the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” God’s word shows us everything we need to know about ourselves and God. If we will heed it as a light that shines in dark places. Jesus said, “It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63. “Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth.” John 17:17. Let us also remember that God chose to speak to us in these later days by His Son, Heb 1:1. We have in our hands, His last will and testament. Let us heed His voice.

  6. Dwight says:

    Jesus was the Word and the Word became flesh. We are converted by hearing (or reading) of God’s word. If there is more than the word which we have it better at least match the word and if so, then what is the point of it?
    The word is all sufficient as the word.
    Now is the word enough? How many people read the word and are not converted. Many.
    The thing that is missing is that heart is not open or ready for the word to be planted.
    Once we accept the Word and Jesus into our hearts, sounds kind of Baptist I know, then we can accept the Holy Spirit as well. Salvation comes through the Word to man through Jesus the Savior.

    Kevin, you have reversed the order. The fact is we need Christ who brought the gospel which is the word. If the word is not sufficient, then neither is the gospel of Christ or Christ the Word/messenger.
    Now I don’t suggest Bible worship or word worship, but Christ worship.
    We see the picture or story as painted by the words and become one with Christ.
    There is no point then on fighting over the word being “all” sufficient or not, as Christ is all sufficient and we follow Christ. It just so happens that the only way we can do so is through the word which we have.

  7. laymond says:

    “Jesus was the Word and the Word became flesh.” I believe some have this backwards.
    The word of God became flesh, when the spirit of God descended from heaven landing on Jesus at his baptism, and dwelled there. There is no scripture that said Jesus was the “word of God” at his birth. Or the word became flesh at Jesus’ birth. People say it this way to indicate that Jesus existed before his birth on earth, which there is no proof of in scripture.

  8. Dwight says:

    Ugh, the scriptures never argue your point that Jesus isn’t deity from birth Laymond, as you try to insert it again.
    John 1 “the Word became flesh”, which is what happened at His birth. It doesn’t make sense that he wasn’t flesh before he came out of the water and then he was. Jesus was worshipped as the savior at his birth. Read the order of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God…. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
    This would indicate that Jesus didn’t dwell among men before his baptism, but did afterwards.
    Huh?
    It is notable that John recognized in Jesus, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” before he was baptized.

    Please don’t hijack my point, which was that the Word was with God, the Word was God and the Word came to man and man had the word in the form of Jesus, the Son of God, who gave men the word that was the gospel about Him, the savior and living Godly and this was what we needed to reach God.

  9. laymond says:

    Ugh, the scriptures never argue your point that Jesus isn’t deity from birth Laymond, as you try to insert it again.
    They certainly do not, why would they when they state the origin of Jesus plainly in the gospel story.
    Dwight, Jesus walked among men for 30 years before he became known as “the Son of God” and yes Jesus was the vessel of salvation prepared from birth by which God would provide salvation for the Jews. That is plainly written. what seems not so plainly written to some was when God activated his plan. with God there is a time and place for everything. Jesus didn’t go about preaching the gospel on his own timetable , nor was he called the son of God until he was baptized and called upon to spread the gospel. Yes the bible plainly states that “The Word” was with God in the beginning, and was part of God, but it also states that Jesus began to speak God’s words ,the words God gave him to speak, clearly after Jesus was baptized, and identified as God’s son, and the Lamb of God. So why do you choose to call him “The Word” instead of the deliverer of God’s Word. God’s messenger, or even the Lamb.

  10. laymond says:

    Dwight, do these to scriptures refer to the same “white horse” if so who sits on the white horse ?

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

  11. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    Jeff,

    But gentleman, we have the words of Christ, we have His teachings. The bible is all sufficient if we heed it as a light that shines in dark places.

    Even here, Jeff, this is not accurate. True, the Bible instructs us wrt the Gospel and God’s will. But we don’t carry around the Bible and point it at people like a flashlight. That is what your sentence implies. Something else is needed…human action:

    15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ (Acts 26:15-18)

    We tend to get ourselves in trouble when we overstate our case. The scriptures never claim to be all-sufficient. Jeff quoted just a small portion from I Peter 4:11; let’s look at the overall context:

    10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    The context of the passage is spiritual gifts in the service of others. Human action. Oracles instruct; we act. Both are required. Karen Jobes notes in her BECNT commentary:

    The final resource for the preservation of the Christian community is the stewardship of gifts of God’s grace they have received for the purpose of serving others (4:10–11). Again the emphasis is on others within the Christian community benefiting from what each has received from God. Peter uses the same word, χάρισμα (charisma, gift), that Paul uses to refer to specific spiritual gifts such as healings, miraculous powers, and speaking in tongues (e.g., 1 Cor. 12:4, 9, 30–31). Here the word refers more generally to the gifts of God’s grace in the fullest sense (cf. Rom. 5:15–16; 6:23). Peter implies that each Christian believer, by definition, has received a gift of God’s grace. That experience of grace is to be directed toward service to others, as Paul also teaches the specific charismata should be used (1 Cor. 12:1–31).

    Jobes, Karen H. 1 Peter. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2005. Print. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament.

  12. Jeff opined: “Let us also remember that God chose to speak to us in these later days by His Son, Heb 1:1. We have in our hands, His last will and testament. Let us heed His voice.” Here we find a mixture of scripture and conclusion, and unsubstantiated opinion at that. Let us take care with those who admix their own words with scripture and ask us to treat both the same. “We have it in our hands” I must assume to refer to the Protestant canon. This is something Hebrews never implies, in fact, the writer never even contemplates such a thing. We do not have Jesus “in our hands”. Thus Jeff equates “the Son” to “the canon”. This is false. Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is words from God. The Bible never claims to be The Word; in fact, it tells us Jesus is The Word. To fail to understand the difference is to fail to know the difference between a photograph and the person in that photograph. It also creates an idol by equating a book with God Himself, a claim the Bible NEVER makes for itself.

    I am also fascinated at the mental gymnastics required to convert Jesus’ speaking in these “latter days” to an insistence that He is no longer doing so, but that in these even-later days (i.e.; since the 4th century) Jesus can no longer speak outside a book. Again, this is something that book does not teach. And let us not forget this whole-cloth invention that tells us that the collection of post-resurrection scripture IS the “new testament”. That is Tertullian speaking, not Jesus. His well-intended and simplistic bifurcation of the Scriptures may have been useful in defending orthodoxy against Marcion, but it has long muddied the real nature and purpose of scripture.

  13. Larry Cheek says:

    Laymond,
    Have you forgotten some of the scriptures that you have surely read? As you testify about the Boy Jesus while addressing Dwight.
    “Dwight, Jesus walked among men for 30 years before he became known as “the Son of God” —. And, “nor was he called the son of God until he was baptized and called upon to spread the gospel”.
    Mat 2:13-15 ESV Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” (14) And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt (15) and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

    Mar 1:1-3 ESV The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (2) As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, (3) the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,'”
    Luk 1:31-35 ESV And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. (32) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, (33) and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (34) And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” (35) And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
    In the narrative following, The Book of Luke records Jesus as calling God his Father at the age of 12 years old. Would you be so sure that he was not helped by God’s Spirit as he was astounding the Doctors of the Law and the Elders of Israel in his interpretations of the Law.
    Luk 2:42-49 ESV And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. (43) And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, (44) but supposing him to be in the group they went a day’s journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, (45) and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. (46) After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. (47) And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. (48) And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” (49) And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” Luk 2:49 KJV And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

    I believe that Dwight also mentioned that, you believe that the Son from The Father was not God’s Son until The Spirit came upon him, and that The Word entered into him at the same time as The Spirit. That is the reasoning that you apply to conclude that The Word was not fleshly Jesus prior to The Spirit entering.
    Joh 1:14 ESV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

  14. laymond says:

    Larry, you quote scripture declaring what Jesus will be called, and he was at his baptism.

    “will be called the Son of the Most High”
    ” will be called holy—the Son of God.”

    “The Book of Luke records Jesus as calling God his Father”
    I don’t know about you but I call God Father too. but I am waiting for God to call me son. that is when it means something.
    I could go on but every example was spoken of in the future.
    at Jesus baptism, God said. ‘THIS IS MY SON”

  15. Profile photo of Jay Guin Jay Guin says:

    Price,

    Indeed. Many of the “all sufficiency” arguments assume that the Spirit’s only “direct operation” would be to inspire new scripture. It’s a strawman argument that ignores lots of Bible and all of church history.

  16. Price Futrell says:

    Jay… it’s odd that the folks who hold so tightly to sola scripture ignore the working of the HS in all His many aspects… Paul was warned, visitors to the Corinthian church were told of secret issues, words of knowledge were given to the assembly to exhort, edify and encourage, Paul was told not to go to Asia at one point, famine was prophesied so that folks could prepare…..many, many more examples of the HS’s involvement that provided information that wasn’t available otherwise… That’s what the scripture tells us so I’m surprised by the number of people who ignore that… the question is why ?

  17. Profile photo of Kevin Kevin says:

    Another caveat to this discussion invokes prayer. Why do we pray? What do we hope to achieve from prayer? We know that the prayers of a righteous man help significantly. Do we acknowledge this truth anymore in the 21st century CoC?

    Can we pray for wisdom? Does God grant wisdom? I think most people would answer these questions in the affirmative. James suggests that anyone who lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. That is an affirmative, declarative statement about prayer and wisdom.

    But, if the scriptures are all-sufficient, why should we pray for wisdom? It doesn’t make sense. Why don’t we just study the Bible because the scriptures are able to make us wise according to Paul. Think about it. If the scriptures are able to make us wise and if the scriptures are all-sufficient, why should we need to pray for wisdom? The notion of all-sufficiency would usurp the ability of God to answer prayer in this matter. After all, we are effectively wasting time by praying when we should be reading.

    Or…maybe the correct answer is indeed “both-and.” We can BOTH pray for wisdom AND study the word from God in order to gain wisdom. And God helps us in both ways; neither one is all-sufficient.

  18. laymond says:

    Kevin, as some here have said, you have to be a righteous man to understand scripture, Maybe you are like me, just not righteous enough.

  19. laymond says:

    Price, I doubt any true Christian doubts the presents on God/HS on the earth, anytime we see a child born, a seed grow into a turnip, the sun in the morning, the rain water a dry earth, all these things are evidence God is still on the job. but God does not have to indwell this old broken body, or even this feeble mind to influence what happens on this creation of his.He can do it up close or from a far distance. believe it or not, God is still God.

  20. Jeff Richardson says:

    Charles, Jesus is the word. Do we have it? Romans 16:25,26 ” Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began, but now made manifest, and by the prophetic scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.” We don’t have Jesus in our hands literally. But we do, through the agency of the written word. Hebrews 1:1,2 ” God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.” Charles do you not believe that passages? There will be no new revelations. God, through His Son has spoken. This is the danger, in believing in this personal indwelling of the H.S. People believe that God is speaking to them and personally directing them. God’s will for man has been revealed. And yes Charles, we have it in our hands. The Bible, Christ’s last will and testament, there won’t be another. “And so, we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.” knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, for by prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1: 19-21. So Charles, I suppose your point would be, unless one has the “Spirit” in a physical since, you can’t have God? The Bible says, “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” Heb. 11:6. How do we get faith Charles? Romans 10:17 says, “faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.”

  21. Dwight says:

    Praying for wisdom allows one to see the word clearer and understand it, but that doesn’t mean new information. The same with the HS, which allows us to utilize and respond to the word, but that doesn’t mean new revelation.
    Those in Acts 2 knew enough to respond to Jesus and be saved and to meet and worship God. They didn’t need more in that regard.
    And plus they had the OT scriptures as well, which was a wealth of information on God.
    We kind of forget that source.
    The letters of the Apostles basically corrected some error in thinking and doing and enforced earlier points on how to be Godly and expanding upon some concepts that were being done like baptism or moving on to Jesus, but didn’t really do much in the way of giving brand new information or doctrine that wasn’t taught before by Jesus.
    Even Revelation didn’t change doctrine, but gave some correction to the congregations in Asia and insight into God’s plan and comfort to those who would face persecution.
    Being Godly or being God centered was in place from the OT on to where Jesus came in as the way.
    So do we have enough? Yes! Could we have more? More of what? More of what we know?
    It reminds me of the Jews that kept hounding Jesus for signs, but Jesus told them to not worry about signs, but worry about God, their righteousness and their fellow man.
    It sometimes seems we are in a constant pursuit of something we already posses. This is especially true in life.

  22. laymond says:

    The days in which we live are called “the last days” for a reason. there will be no more outreaches to man from God. No more sacrifices, if the sacrifice of his only begotten son was not enough for some people, maybe they are just asking to much.

  23. Jeff, your language confuses me. You acknowledge that Jesus is the Word, but then you say “we have it”. Did you mean to say “we have Him”? When did He become “it”? And you are back to making statements, attached to biblical references which which turn out NOT to say what YOU say. Hebrews 1:1 does not say we now have the Bible instead of Jesus, nor even that we have Jesus is the form of the Bible. It just doesn’t. And it assumes exclusive language that is not in the passage. The writer says nothing about revelation no longer coming through prophets, but rather reminds us that God Himself has come to us. The passage also does NOT say that God will never speak to us again except through the Bible. That’s not even a bad interpretation, it’s pure invention. I believe what Hebrews says, brother, but that is a long way from believing what you tell me it says.

    The Bible is Jesus’ last will and testament? Really? (Funny how not one NT writer makes this observation.) Are you sure you are not treating it as though it is our inheritance? That Jesus died and left us the Bible in His place?

    Oh, and please understand that we “have the Spirit” in a spiritual way. (That is sort of definitional.) That is how He takes what is of Jesus and makes it known to us. He does act upon the physical world -including us- just as he has for millennia. Sometimes he even has us write books about Jesus.

  24. In Laymond’s “last days”, God appears to be, for all intents and purposes, dead.

  25. Alabama John says:

    The Bible is in a lot of folks hands and thus we have over 3000 different beliefs called denominations today that all see it differently including the many different sects of the Churches of Christ.

    Its been picked to death and even those that think and have taught they have had it just right have every few years changed on many things by omitting some things required and adding on others.

    Lets not forget the Bible is the “GOOD NEWS” not a law book.

    I look forward to being judged like it says in the Bible in Romans 8:1 THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Notice the capitalization in this verse.

  26. laymond says:

    ” Hebrews 1:1 does not say we now have the Bible instead of Jesus, nor even that we have Jesus is the form of the Bible. It just doesn’t. ”

    and of course Charles is right in what he said, but there is a reason for the bible to be composed of more than one book. Hebrews 1 doesn’t repeat everything the apostle John wrote. I believe John spoke of things Jesus said to God, and to his apostles. such as I, Jesus, have completed the job given me . but he also said the apostles he left here would do an even greater job than he. I believe Jesus meant greater in time, longer than he was to stay. I also consider the apostles job was extended considerably , through the written story of Jesus , and therefore Jesus job was extended as well.

    Charles and others here might want to re-read the gospel of John, before they say Jesus didn’t finish his assigned task. Yes Jesus gave a spiritual helper to remind the apostles of what he had told then, I believe he said they would learn new things through this helper. Am I wrong when I say Jesus told his apostles they need not ask him things, when they could go straight to God because God loved them as well.

  27. laymond says:

    I don’t know where Charles gets a lot of the things he writes, but let me inform you Charles that even God sets limits to what he will endure from his creation, I believe we have examples of that in the old testament times. I believe the sacrifice of God’s only begotten son, was the last try, to bring the rebels home. And if God were to offer up his own life, no one would be saved, because without God there would be no life to save. So since I witness life going on about me every day, I am sure GOD LIVES.
    The first of times (our first chance) was from creation, until after the flood. the second times, (our second chance) was from the time Noah set foot back on earth, until the resurrection of Jesus. We were granted “The Last Days” through the Gospel, good news , another chance., when that ends only God knows. And Charles I am positive God still lives, and in full charge of his kingdom.

  28. Ray Downen says:

    Alabama John wants us to notice the capitalization in a particular verse. What I know and call attention to is the fact that the capitalizing was ALL done by humans and not by the author, so I recommend that you NEVER base your understanding on the capitalization by humans. Very often the translators capitalize “spirit” when the subject is NOT the Holy Spirit. And they also often insert a “the” prior to “spirit” which is no part of the original writing. There IS therefore no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh (human strength & wisdom) but after the spirit (human spirit of humble acceptance of GOD’s wisdom as revealed in Jesus).

    The error is especially tragic when they create doctrine which opposes apostolic teaching in 1 Corinthians 12:13. There, the apostle speaks of a baptism every reader knew they had experienced (immersion in water) and capitalize “spirit” to imply the baptizing was done BY THE SPIRIT. Two simple facts prove it’s not the Spirit was baptizes into Christ. Jesus commands that baptism is to be done by PEOPLE (the great commission, Matthew 28:18-20) rather than by the Spirit or by Himself. And Paul’s subject throughout the letter to the Corinthian church members is urging UNITY IN CHRIST which is obviously not based on what PERSON did the baptizing, but on the same HUMILITY with which each person RECEIVED baptism by a person.

  29. laymond says:

    Charles how about “The New Testament” being Jesus last will and testament ?

    Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Heb 9:16 ¶ For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    I believe that might be considered “The last will and testament” of the man Jesus.

  30. Ray Downen says:

    Laymond says some good things. And some lesser things, such as “I, Jesus, have completed the job given me . but he also said the apostles he left here would do an even greater job than he. I believe Jesus meant greater in time, longer than he was to stay.” I note that some truths revealed through the apostles was NEVER SPOKEN by Jesus while He was on earth.

    So I figure Jesus was speaking of NEW TRUTH “greater” than all the truths spoken by Jesus while on earth teaching Jews. For one example, read John’s gospel, chapter 1 and note that the apostle speaks of creation in ways Jesus never did, and makes clear that Jesus IS GOD in simple words. New truth. Greater truth. Surprising truth.

  31. Alabama John says:

    Ray, there are many that believe and teach there are no errors as all who translated were guided by God or the Holy Spirit so every capitalization and word is inspired.
    This is especially true of the 70 inspired men of God who were led to eliminate several books deemed by them as unworthy of being in the Bible. Romans 8:1 which I quoted was straight from the King James Version of the Bible which the 70 approved of, capitalization and all.
    Now at the book stores we have several different interpretations and understandings and that confuses folks even more. Were the writers of all these new Bibles inspired as much as the 70?

  32. laymond says:

    Ray, I never intended to quote verbatim the scripture, but these are the vs I referred to.

    Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    I guess we can all form our own opinions as to what he meant.

  33. Laymond, again you present the same error in reasoning; quoting a passage, drawing a conclusion about the passage which is not found in the passage, and telling us that your conclusion is what the passage actually says. It is a simple non sequitur. In this case, merely reading the word “testament” does not define it as the Bible. By the way, the first person who calls the post-resurrection canon the “new testament” is Tertullian. The bifurcation between “old” and “new” was his own, a creation in service of his defense of orthodoxy versus Marcion. IMO, this well-intended invention has muddled our understanding of scripture for centuries.

  34. laymond says:

    Charles Mclean says:
    April 8, 2016 at 11:27 pm
    Laymond, again you present the same error in reasoning; quoting a passage, drawing a conclusion about the passage which is not found in the passage,

    Yes Charles that is exactly the conclusion I came to by reading it. Charles seem to say for some reason He has a right to give his opinion, that he does not extend to others.
    In this very short comment Charles seems to deny my right to my conclusion, but gives his own conclusive opinion. I suppose that is the difference in those who “get the holy ghost” and those who don’t.

    ” IMO, this well-intended invention has muddled our understanding of scripture for centuries.”

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
    Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
    1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

  35. laymond says:

    Act 2:14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    When I was a young boy, In north central Arkansas, I saw many people claim to “get the holy ghost” and I was present when it happened.
    The church known as the “holiness church” or as some outsiders called them “holy rollers” had brush arbor meetings every summer in my home town of Mountian View. All us kids thought the same thing as those who wittnessed what happened in Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
    After getting older, and a little wiser, I realized these people were just mimiking what they had read in the bible.
    My point is this, (after the long way around to it) if one recieves the holy ghost at baptism, how come they don’t act like those people I wittnessed long ago in Stone county Arkansas ?
    Or those Peter spoke of when he said. “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; “

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